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Old 24th Oct 2004, 22:10
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Question Flying Wing

Just watched 'War of the Worlds' tonight. It was a 1953 film and showed an American flying Wing. It appeared to have 3 or 4 engines in each wing, 4 fins and one pilot. The aerial shots showed it to be a 'Smokey Joe' but I suppose that would be right for that era!

My question is, was it a real aircraft? or was it just one of the visual effects for which the film won an Oscar?

If it was real can anybody supply any details about it. Just curious.


CC
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Old 24th Oct 2004, 22:17
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CC, probably a Northrop YB-49...

There is some video here (well, I think there is - my browser needs a plug in to run it)

Also see here

and

here.

Edit to add: No probably about it according to this website
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Old 25th Oct 2004, 06:50
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Several of my fathers friends worked on the YB49 project, and our neighbor was the engineering project manager.


Waaaay ahead of its time, was the Jack Northrop design.

It was a regular sight in the skies over southern California at the time.
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Old 25th Oct 2004, 07:18
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If you go to Chino on an airshow day you might be lucky enough to see the YB-49's baby brother, the Northrop N-9M fly - delightful!
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Old 25th Oct 2004, 10:03
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Waaaay ahead of its time, was the Jack Northrop design.
Not really.
The German Horten brothers did better things in WW2.
Drag rudders, laminated skins to reduce radar returns, etc. Very clever stuff.



Most people & companies that work on flying wings simply end up duplicating their work at some point.
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Old 26th Oct 2004, 12:58
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It was a YB49, the type also featured in the HG Wells film "Shape of things to come".

I think that 11 were built, but only one was flown. The lead Test Pilot for the early part of the programme was Maj (later Gen.) Bob Cardenas, who is still around. The aircraft was later lost under the control of another TP (sorry I don't have the names to hand) resulting in the loss of a complete test crew on 15 June 1948. This led to (but wasn't the sole reason for) abandonment of the project and all the surviving prototypes were broken up. It's generally accepted that the work done on that led to the B2 from the same stable some years later - once fly by wire technology had made control of such a machine much more practical.

The following is a modified extract from some (as yet) unpublished work by myself - although the actual flight test report was courtesy of General Cardenas:-

G



The following account is by a USAF Test Pilot working in 1948 upon evaluation of the YB-49 aircraft, and describes a pitching loss of control in this aircraft. The use of the word “tumble” is that selected by the Test Pilot at the time.

“23 February YB-49 #368 one landing local Muroc-------- 0:35 mins.
Recommended no intentional stalls due to the fact that during the final phase of the stall entry maneuver it lurched over backwards into a tumble. Had to use asymmetric power to recover. Submitted a full report and thankful that the throttles were hanging down from the ceiling rather than in a normal position since G forces had my arms locked upwards and my rear off the seat. Flight test engineers told me later that I had encountered inertial coupling”

“the results of my one Stall Test during which the aircraft had assumed a very high angle of attack without a stall warning and then pitched over backwards…. The rotation was severe and made it difficult to keep my hands and feet on the controls. The engineers called it a lateral roll but I was experiencing a tumble! I was lucky that the designers had put two throttles hanging down from the upper surfaces, each connected to four engines.I applied full power with the left throttle and resolved the "tumble" with asymmetric power and elevon control.”

The aircraft was subsequently lost on 15 June 1948 whilst under the control of another Test Pilot and was destroyed killing all on board. Available reports indicate that the aircraft lost control in pitch at about 40,000ft, with the wingtips detaching from the airframe at a high altitude under loading which exceeded 4.8g[ ]. The aircraft descended almost vertically, impacting inverted, whilst the wingtips were found several miles away.




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Old 26th Oct 2004, 13:19
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Glen Edwards was, I think, the TP lost in the crash of the YB-49 - and after whom Edwards AFB is named. Bob Cardenas also flew the B-29 mothership for Yeager's Bell X-1 exploits.

Other than the various Horten and Northrop designs, the only other flying wings I can think of off-hand are the Fauvel gliders and motor gliders - any others?
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Old 26th Oct 2004, 13:43
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- Dh 108 Swift

- The BKB-1 (often innacurately called the Kasperwing)

- The Swift light glider (http://www.aeriane.com/swiftlight.htm)

- The B2

- The Marske flying wings (http://www.continuo.com/marske/)

- The AVRO Vulcan

- X31, X36

- Plus every hang-glider, paraglider and flexwing microlight on the planet.


G
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Old 26th Oct 2004, 13:49
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Oh! Steady on! Let's not give our American friends the laurels to soon, though I wish they had kept at least one of those fabulous "wings".

How about the Westland Pterodactyl series which the late great Harald Penrose tested extensively in the '30s, way way before those Northrop jets. Incidentally pitch stability was their eventual downfall too, though the design's potential was clearly demonstrated. See Harald's many books for the whole story.

Am I right in thinking that some of the Horten machines are still in the Smithsonian reserve collection gathering dust?
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Old 26th Oct 2004, 14:20
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Credit where it's due, Jack Northrop was flying large models from 1928, although to be fair the first manned aircraft - the N1M - didn't fly until 1939.

G
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Old 26th Oct 2004, 14:31
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Take your point Ghengis, though I'd have categorised Vulcans, most flex wings, et al as delta winged aircraft rather than "true" flying wings.

Isn't there a Horten in one of the UK museums?

Cheers

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Old 26th Oct 2004, 14:41
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As you said Genghis, credit where it's due. Which in this case is clearly Yeovil, not someplace in the desert in Arizona.

To my astonishment a Pterodactyl is apparently in the Science Museum, London. First flight? 1925. Sorry Mr Northrop!

Here's the London Pterodactyl;

http://webferret.search.com/click?wf...,altavista</a>

And a superb Horten site;

http://www.ctie.monash.edu/hargrave/horten.html

Last edited by Agaricus bisporus; 26th Oct 2004 at 14:52.
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Old 26th Oct 2004, 16:37
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The GAL 56 tailless experimental glider described as the 'worst ever' thing he ever flew by Capt 'Winkle' Brown:

"In spite of a huge undercarriage, landing was little more than a controlled crash. Approaching the stall, at 70 mph a self stalling tendency began to develop. At 65 mph a runaway stall became imminent and if no recovery was made at that point, at 55 mph the aircraft entered an irrecoverable tail slide"

The wretched thing made 20 flights, 'Winkle' flying 19. Shortly afterwards Robert Kronfeld, the famous glider pilot, was killed in the GAL 56.

With acknowledgements to GASCo Flight Safety
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Old 26th Oct 2004, 20:37
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I think there is or was an operational Fauvel AV36 flying wing glider at The London Gliding Club at Dunstable. A quick google was not able to confirm this but that is what my memory says. Mind you, I'm getting old now.

Mike
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Old 26th Oct 2004, 20:58
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There was also the Armstrong Whitworth 52 powered by two Nenes.

http://tanks45.tripod.com/Jets45/His...W-52/AW-52.htm
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Old 26th Oct 2004, 22:20
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Thanks for the info people. The only flying wing photo that I have is captioned 'AW 52' serial TS363 with a 'P' in a circle on the nose(prototype?) shown flying over fields covered with snow with a small lake and village(hamlet) in view. Looks like two engines and fins on the wingtips, also what looks like pitot tubes on the wingtips. Single, possibly two crew with a bubble type canopy.
Interesting looking beastie!


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Old 27th Oct 2004, 20:18
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treadigraph,

I'm with you on the Vulcan, a delta as opposed to a true flying wing.

However, Ghengis, most modern flexwing hang-gliders are definately more flying wing than delta.

The early 1st and 2nd generation machines based on the Rogallo steerable parachute were good delta examples but the 5th and 6th gen modern flexwings appear much closer to a YB49 design. Including the tendancy to tumble!!!

And if I can work out how to post a photo I will.
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Old 27th Oct 2004, 21:14
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Delta is only the shape, flying wing is what it does. Most flying wings are deltas, but not all - nor are all deltas flying wings. So far as I know all Rogallos are deltaform flying wings.

G

250ish hours in Rogallo flexwings.
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Old 28th Oct 2004, 13:27
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Seems there are at least 4 Hortens owned by the Smithsonian. In the early 1990s it looks like 3 were transferred on a loan basis to DTM in Berlin for restoration. Don\'t know where they are now and get a 403 error when I post the NASM\'s URL here, so below is about half the text from the NASM web site that you get when you search on "Horten". NASM web site also has pictures and drawings.



The National Air and Space Museum (NASM) owns four of these unique aircraft, the largest extant collection in the world. Each artifact is one-of-a-kind and there are no other known, original examples.

At the end of 1993, NASM completed negotiations to lend the Horten II L, H IIIf, H IIIh, and the H VI V2 to the Museum für Verkehr und Technik Berlin. This facility is now called the Deutschestechnikal Museum (DTM).

DTM generously agreed to fully restore and preserve these artifacts to NASM specifications. As compensation, NASM will transfer permanently one sailplane to DTM after all four are completed sometime in 2000. They may remain there on loan for several years. The DTM restoration staff of German craftsmen recently completed the Horten II L and are now well-along on the Horten IIIf and \'IIIh.

On December 10, 1993 these aircraft left the Paul Garber Facility in three enormous crates. They arrived in Berlin the following month, marking the start of another interesting chapter in the saga of these unique aircraft.

Operational Histories

Horten II L
The Horten II L, Werk-Nummer (manufacturer\'s construction number, hereafter WNr.) 6, is the third Horten II built but the first of three \'L\' subtypes constructed at Lippstadt, Germany, in 1937. Reimar Horten flew this sailplane at the German National glider competitions later that year. Lacking both cross-country flying experience and a retrieval crew, he did poorly. This airplane bore the German registration D-10-125, applied across the top centersection behind the cockpit.

Horten IIIf
Horten assigned WNr. 32 to a Horten IIIf built in 1944 at Göttingen. The NASM H IIIf may be the last of three \'f\' subtypes built. All three aircraft featured fully-prone cockpits for minimum drag. The pilot stretched flat on his stomach, bent slightly at the waist and knees, feet resting on rudder pedals hinged above his heels. A padded chin rest supported his head which projected into the leading edge of the wing. Clear plastic panels formed the leading edge for several feet above, below, and to either side of the pilot. Visibility was good and drag greatly reduced. However, neither view nor pilot comfort in the H IIIf approached the outstanding qualities of the semi-prone layout Reimar Horten developed for the H IV and H VI sailplanes.

Horten IIIh
Horten craftsmen built this sailplane, WNr. 31, in 1944 at Göttingen. German Registration LA-AI was applied to either side of the ventral fin. Uncertainty surrounds the \'h\' subtype designation. Probably the aircraft first flew as a two-place Horten IIIg. Reimar then modified it into a single-seat glider equipped with special test apparatus. Neither Reimar nor Walter recalls the \'h\' designation so it could even be an Allied invention.

Horten VI V2
Reimar Horten built two Horten VI sailplanes in 1944. He clearly intended to produce an ultra-high performance successor to the Horten IV and these were his prototypes. The Horten VI V1 flew once and survived war\'s end but advancing Allied ground forces destroyed it. The second prototype never flew. It is now in the NASM collection.

During his half-hour flight in the VI V1, test pilot Heinz Scheidhauer found the wings quite "soft" and prone to flutter at over one cycle per second at 128 km/h (80 mph). Scheidhauer\'s findings dampened interest in the second prototype and the war ended before further flight testing.

The Horten brothers built the H VI V2, WNr. 34, late in 1944 in their hometown, Bonn. With this aircraft they advanced the state-of-the-sailplane-art to new levels. Besides the huge aspect ratio and L/D, Horten equipped the H VI V2 for serious soaring. He built a complete oxygen system into this sailplane - ventral fin tank, plumbing, and regulator. It could out-fly all other sailplanes in the world but such outstanding performance cost dearly. Excessive flutter no doubt rendered it too dangerous for competitive flying.

Besides the Horten IIIf, the H VI V2 is the only aircraft in the NASM collections piloted from a prone position. The H VI V2 layout is more aptly described as semi-prone and it differs remarkably from the flat-prone arrangement of the H IIIf.

Discovery and Recovery

Mystery surrounds the wartime recovery of the Horten II L. From unspecified sources Phil Butler claims in War Prizes (Midland Counties Publications, 1994) that the Allies recovered this sailplane in Kempten, Bavaria. During preparation for shipment to DTM in 1994, technicians discovered several tags tied to the canopy frame. These small bits of paper became vital clues to illuminating an historical black hole.

According to one tag, by January 4, 1945, the sailplane was displayed at Freeman Field, IN. Army Air Forces (AAF) Air Technical Intelligence (ATI) assigned the very low enemy equipment number \'T2-7\' to this airplane. \'T2\' denoted an intelligence section in American army terminology. Military personnel often used this organizational shorthand in cables and telegrams. ATI numbered all captured German aircraft to ease inventory and tracking. Thus T2-7 could be the seventh German aircraft either captured or numbered.

Extrapolating from the low T2 number, Freeman Field tag date, and time required for shipment, recovery of the Horten II preceded VE-Day by as much as six months! Exactly how they recovered this sailplane remains unknown but it must be quite a story.

Planning for a covert operation to snatch the Horten II must have started sometime during fall 1944. At that time the AAF was extremely interested in Horten all-wing technology. Jack Northrop\'s failure to meet his multi-million-dollar B-35 contract obligations probably drove the service\'s interest in things Horten. According to Garry Pape\'s fine study, Northrop Flying Wings (Schiffer Publishing, 1995), by March 1944, fundamental aerodynamic problems remained with the XB-35 flight control system. By November, "support for the B-35 was ebbing fast."

In 1944 Reimar Horten entered his eleventh year designing and flying manned, all-wing gliders and powered aircraft. Repeatedly he demonstrated mastery of tailless flight control and stability. Late in the war he even contemplated a design approaching the size and complexity of Northrop\'s huge bomber: the six-jet-engine Horten XVIII. Perhaps the AAF felt that an intact Horten might be useful to the B-35 program.

A British C.I.O.S. (Combined Intelligence Objectives Subcommittee) team discovered the NASM Horten IIIf on June 11, 1945, along with the NASM Horten IIIh. The team found the sailplanes at Rottweil on the Neckar River, approximately 100 km (60 miles) southwest of Stuttgart, Germany. Another team that included the great British sailplane authority, Chris Wills Sr., examined the gliders later that month. One team member wrote a C.I.O.S. intelligence report, describing both sailplanes "in perfect condition in trailers, with a full set of instruments."


ATI must have processed the Horten IIIf, H IIIh, and the H VI V2 nearly sequentially, judging by their T2 numbers. Allied intelligence initially expressed keen interest in these sailplanes. Then, inexplicably, their attention waned and they decided "the Horten Tailless Gliders are of no value to us" according to the Weekly Activity Report-Technical Intelligence-Week Ending 26 June 1945.

The Air Disarmament Division, 9th Air Force Service Command, eventually processed the sailplanes for shipment to the United States. The British flight test center at Royal Aircraft Establishment Farnborough, England, might have held them briefly but their whereabouts cannot be verified for two years.

Operation Seahorse could have swept up the three Hortens. For this important, high-priority project, the Allies combed all of western Europe for the most advanced German aircraft. They loaded them aboard the British escort carrier HMS Reaper and sailed for Britain and the United States. Yet no Horten aircraft is mentioned in the lists of Reaper\'s cargo discovered so far. Besides Reaper, two other vessels left the French coast loaded with captured German aeronautica.

Richard J. Gatling, a Liberty Ship bearing 74 railroad boxcar-loads of recovered material, and several German aircraft destined for Wright Field, sailed from Cherbourg on July 12, 1945. In War Prizes, Phil Butler writes that the cargo included "an engineless Me 262A, a Focke-Wulf Ta 154A night fighter, two Me 163B [rocket fighters] and five sailplanes."

The SS Port Fairy shipped the NASM Blohm and Voss Bv 155 V3 to New York on January 27, 1946. She just might have carried the three Hortens as general cargo. Much of this information on vessels carrying German airplanes comes from Norman Malaney\'s ground-breaking research published in the AAHS Journal, Volume 40, Numbers 1-3, 1995.

Eight days after leaving Cherbourg, HMS Reaper docked at Newark, NJ, bearing her load of war booty. AAF personnel towed the flyable aircraft to nearby Newark Army Air Field. Handpicked AAF pilots then flew the airplanes to Freeman Field, IN, Wright Field, OH, or Patuxant River, MD. The Horten sailplanes and other unflyable material was supposed to travel by rail or truck. Correspondence from Eugene E. Freiburger, former member of the Air Disarmament Division, describes a large quantity of equipment clogging the open pier at Newark for nearly a year. The AAF recalled him to active duty just to process it. The three Horten gliders may have numbered among the hundreds of items that sat forgotten in the sun and salt air.

By 1946 the three sailplanes resided at Freeman Field. Then on October 22, 1947, as Stanley A. Hall explains in his forward to Horten Tailless Sailplanes, the Air Force loaned the Horten IIIf, H IIIh, and H VI V2 to Northrop in Hawthorne, CA, after "joint petition of Northrop Aircraft, Inc., and the Southern California Soaring Association [SCSA]." Northrop requested the sailplanes

Northrop personnel planned to test-fly the two Horten III aircraft but they arrived "damaged beyond reasonable repair [and] too badly damaged to make photography worthwhile."

Despite their condition, a throng of aeronautical professionals turned out to inspect them. Among the curious crowds were Northrop engineers and students of Northrop Aeronautical Institute, members of the Society of Automotive Engineers and the Institute of Aeronautical Sciences. Many SCSA members appeared including engineers from Douglas, North American, Lockheed, and Consolidated Vultee.

Much attention fell on the Horten VI V2 due to its intact state and advanced design and construction. It was nearly flyable but word reached Northrop that the airplane was too dangerous to fly. Northrop returned the sailplanes in 1948. The Air Force stored them at Chrysler\'s World War II aircraft assembly plant at Chicago Orchard Airport, Park Ridge, IL. This huge building also sheltered more than eighty War II Allied and Axis airplanes amassed by the Army Air Forces.

In 1950 hasty preparations for war in Korea forced eviction of more than fifty of these rare, original airplanes. They traveled by rail and any too large to fit a boxcar surrendered to the cutting-torch. This fate befell the NASM Horten II nosewheel strut. Workers cut off and discarded both lower forks - wheel, tire, and all - where the strut protruded from the shipping crate.



These priceless aircraft arrived at an open plot of land near Silver Hill, MD, across the Anacostia River south of Washington. The land became a sad home to many of the world\'s great aviation treasures, now outcasts of war. For over ten years most remained outdoors. Only in 1962 did the site start to take the form we know today as the Paul E. Garber Restoration, Preservation, and Storage Facility.


Russell Lee, 2-9-98

Last edited by Iron City; 28th Oct 2004 at 13:59.
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Old 29th Oct 2004, 06:21
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There is also a Mitchell U2 flying wing in the Calgary Aerospace Museum - it is a small GA type with a pusher prop
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