BOAC London - Singapore early 50s
I think you will find the problem with the Strats initially was not to do with the P&W 4360 engine alone but more to do to with the hollow steel Curtis prop blades which I believe were electrically controlled rather than by Hyds . This type of prop got such a bad reputation
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Georgeablelovehowindia
There was a third airline with Argonauts in the early 60s, Aden Airways. They were used between Aden and Mombassa, there was a Service leave camp there and there was not a lot of difference between 4 mighty Merlins and 4 mighty Griffons, just a little quieter.
Wandering off a little I have had many an SAR call out for a Strat/Connie/DC7c on three. We had to get airborne if, as I remember they were West of 15W to escort them---one problem, The Old Grey Lady could not keep up with them once we had found them
There was a third airline with Argonauts in the early 60s, Aden Airways. They were used between Aden and Mombassa, there was a Service leave camp there and there was not a lot of difference between 4 mighty Merlins and 4 mighty Griffons, just a little quieter.
Wandering off a little I have had many an SAR call out for a Strat/Connie/DC7c on three. We had to get airborne if, as I remember they were West of 15W to escort them---one problem, The Old Grey Lady could not keep up with them once we had found them
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WHBM------I think you will find that most Connies had
Hamilton- Standard hydraulically controlled solid blade props with the exceptions that I know about being the 10 MATS 121A and some Seaboard and Western Connies. Now I believe that the Ham-Standards were the most popular and perchieved to be less troublesome. The old Connie I believe got it's "3 engine " nickname because of the Wright 3350 engine tendancy to catch fire and drop off in the early days
Regarding the B377 [stratocruiser ] they had 13 hull losses of which some of the early incidents were down to prop blades coming off, and this caused the American Authority to insist that all hollow steel prop blades on B377 be replaced with the solid type [1955]
Now as far as I know [ but could be wrong ] the only people using hollow steel blades at this time were Curtiss-Wright electric props, and this was definately the case on Uniteds B377 and BOAC converted their B377 to Ham - Standard
You might be interested in looking at the following site
http://aviation-safety.net
then Database and 1955 for the info on the B377
When I was an apprentice with BOAC in the early 1960s we were given an old Argonaut to enable us to get piston engine experience, and it is funny now to remember that we used to have to chain the GPU to the nose leg when we had finished otherwise British Eagle would borrow it until the fuel tank was empty. Also one weekend some of our aeroplane's wing flap mechanism was borrowed [on a permanent basis] to service an Argonaut that had landed at Heathrow [mind you I suppose it could have been a DC-4]
Brit312
Hamilton- Standard hydraulically controlled solid blade props with the exceptions that I know about being the 10 MATS 121A and some Seaboard and Western Connies. Now I believe that the Ham-Standards were the most popular and perchieved to be less troublesome. The old Connie I believe got it's "3 engine " nickname because of the Wright 3350 engine tendancy to catch fire and drop off in the early days
Regarding the B377 [stratocruiser ] they had 13 hull losses of which some of the early incidents were down to prop blades coming off, and this caused the American Authority to insist that all hollow steel prop blades on B377 be replaced with the solid type [1955]
Now as far as I know [ but could be wrong ] the only people using hollow steel blades at this time were Curtiss-Wright electric props, and this was definately the case on Uniteds B377 and BOAC converted their B377 to Ham - Standard
You might be interested in looking at the following site
http://aviation-safety.net
then Database and 1955 for the info on the B377
When I was an apprentice with BOAC in the early 1960s we were given an old Argonaut to enable us to get piston engine experience, and it is funny now to remember that we used to have to chain the GPU to the nose leg when we had finished otherwise British Eagle would borrow it until the fuel tank was empty. Also one weekend some of our aeroplane's wing flap mechanism was borrowed [on a permanent basis] to service an Argonaut that had landed at Heathrow [mind you I suppose it could have been a DC-4]
Brit312
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WHBM,-----That was a great site , but sort of leaves you in limbo as the aircraft type at one time or another seems to have had all sorts of props on them so perhaps you are correct in that the problems were with the 4360s
I used to work in the Prop workshop as a oung man and only the Britannia 100 series had hollow steel blades with the 300 series having solid blades but as the article states both were DH hydraulic controlled props
I used to work in the Prop workshop as a oung man and only the Britannia 100 series had hollow steel blades with the 300 series having solid blades but as the article states both were DH hydraulic controlled props
There was a third airline with Argonauts in the early 60s, Aden Airways
Possibly the saddest one was G-ALHG, one of a few sold by BOAC to British Midland, which was involved in the Stockport air crash in 1967 on approach to Manchester Ringway, operating a return IT charter from Spain. My elder brother had just started with the Stockport police and was one of the first on the scene. He still remembers the passengers beating on the inside of the windows before everything was consumed by fire.
Re the Argonaut
I was a pax on the first BOAC trooping flight to Aden by Argonaut ... London-Rome-Cairo-Aden. My first posting (on 'Pigs') and well remembered for the mind-numbing Merlin accompaniment and my travelling companion a Flight Sergeant ferry pilot going out to pick up a Venom. He had done this many times and made good use of the bar facilities. Not wishing to be thought 'green', I joined him. No contest!!! between Rome and Cairo I totally lost it such that I had to stay on the aircraft for the Cairo turn-round
Arriving eventually in Aden to 115degrees in the shade did nothing for the hangover.
Many years later, discussing the Strat versus Argonaut/Connie era, I was told that the Strat fleet were very much the pampered pets. Accommodation was totally separated - one hotel for the Capt, one for the F/O and Nav and a third for the rest. The other fleets allowed one hotel for the lot.
My return from Aden was by Britavia Hermes - unbelievably tight seat pitches and interminable leg times. Worrying departure from Malta with a VERY early throttle back after lift-off and a rather uncomfortable few minutes with not much vertical movement
The noisy environment of these aircraft was noted in retrospect rather than at the time - we were totally used to that sort of thing in day-to-day flying.
A few years later I 'trooped' to Singapore with another of the non-scheds, possibly Eagle(??) DC6 - almost as noisy and certainly as crowded. They operated on pretty thin profit margins and must have made a considerable loss on that particular flight. We should have routed Istanbul - Karachi - Changi but someone forgot the de-insectisation paperwork and had to divert for a night-stop at Teheran. Super hotel and well looked after but much expense, I fancy.
Return, from Bangkok and HK some two and a bit years later was in a Britannia - again, knees immobilised by the seat in front and a couple of 10 hour plus flight times
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be
I was a pax on the first BOAC trooping flight to Aden by Argonaut ... London-Rome-Cairo-Aden. My first posting (on 'Pigs') and well remembered for the mind-numbing Merlin accompaniment and my travelling companion a Flight Sergeant ferry pilot going out to pick up a Venom. He had done this many times and made good use of the bar facilities. Not wishing to be thought 'green', I joined him. No contest!!! between Rome and Cairo I totally lost it such that I had to stay on the aircraft for the Cairo turn-round
Arriving eventually in Aden to 115degrees in the shade did nothing for the hangover. Many years later, discussing the Strat versus Argonaut/Connie era, I was told that the Strat fleet were very much the pampered pets. Accommodation was totally separated - one hotel for the Capt, one for the F/O and Nav and a third for the rest. The other fleets allowed one hotel for the lot.
My return from Aden was by Britavia Hermes - unbelievably tight seat pitches and interminable leg times. Worrying departure from Malta with a VERY early throttle back after lift-off and a rather uncomfortable few minutes with not much vertical movement
The noisy environment of these aircraft was noted in retrospect rather than at the time - we were totally used to that sort of thing in day-to-day flying.
A few years later I 'trooped' to Singapore with another of the non-scheds, possibly Eagle(??) DC6 - almost as noisy and certainly as crowded. They operated on pretty thin profit margins and must have made a considerable loss on that particular flight. We should have routed Istanbul - Karachi - Changi but someone forgot the de-insectisation paperwork and had to divert for a night-stop at Teheran. Super hotel and well looked after but much expense, I fancy.
Return, from Bangkok and HK some two and a bit years later was in a Britannia - again, knees immobilised by the seat in front and a couple of 10 hour plus flight times
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be
Death Cruiser Flight Crew
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The Stockport disaster was due to a double-engine fuel starvation on the same side, and I can't remember which. It was caused by inadvertent fuel transfer, through a fractional mis-positioning of the crossfeed cocks - less than a pencil's width from closed - a known DC-4 type problem.
BBC TV did a programme on the subsequent investigation, which showed the late D P Davies - the then chief ARB test pilot - flying another Midland Argonaut in the same configuration. He was literally standing up in the seat to maintain directional control. Also included was the recording on the Manchester Approach frequency of the last transmission from the aircraft. It was a despairing "HOW far?" on being passed range from touchdown.
The captain, who survived the accident with injuries, put the aircraft down in the only tiny space in the middle of Stockport which presented itself. I'm not sure if he ever returned to flying.
BBC TV did a programme on the subsequent investigation, which showed the late D P Davies - the then chief ARB test pilot - flying another Midland Argonaut in the same configuration. He was literally standing up in the seat to maintain directional control. Also included was the recording on the Manchester Approach frequency of the last transmission from the aircraft. It was a despairing "HOW far?" on being passed range from touchdown.
The captain, who survived the accident with injuries, put the aircraft down in the only tiny space in the middle of Stockport which presented itself. I'm not sure if he ever returned to flying.
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Without wishing to go off thread too much, a link that may be of interest re the Stockport Air disaster. If you ever get to see the spot he came down in, it was not only a superb piece of flying skill, but a miracle as well that the ground devastion was limited.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/north...disaster.shtml
The cause was a classic "murphy" re the fuel selection cocks as I recall ?---but could be wrong here.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/north...disaster.shtml
The cause was a classic "murphy" re the fuel selection cocks as I recall ?---but could be wrong here.
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Comets and Connies
A couple of items for the historians:
1. In 1953 as a teenager at school I flew by Comets London - S'pore for the summer holiday. My mother worked as Senior Ground Stewardess for Mansfields (GHA for BOAC and Malayan Airways) at Kallang to save the money for my fare - £300, as a 'student' I paid single for a return (I did all my own bookings and arrangements from school).
The sectors were Rome, Beirut (for which I needed a transit visa for a one hour re-fuelling stop), Bahrain, Karachi, Calcutta, Rangoon, S'pore. The sectors were so short because of the Comet's limited range. And as I remember it she flew higher than today - >40k? because of fuel burn. Result was that one climbed (and descended) like a fighter, plus the effect of poorer pressurisation, so after 24 hrs elapsed I arrived in S'pore needing another 24 hrs to recover.
Outward a/c was G-ALYU (Yoke Uncle that subsequently failed in the Farnborough pressurisation test). Return as I remember it was on G-AMAV, which I understood was a 1A meant originally for Canadian Pacific - 44 seats to the 1's 36 seats. Can the experts confirm? I still have a photo of Yoke Uncle at Rangoon - anybody interested if I post it?
Flying on the first Comets had the glamour of an early Concorde - special call at London Airport North (with its WWll huts as terminal) was for the 'Jetliner to Singapore'. My mother claimed to have done the PA announcing the arrival at Kallang ending with the words 'and my son's on it'!
2. re the Connie crash at Kallang in March 54. My mother was there (waiting to do the PA announcing arrival). Kallang was close in town and a major road, controlled by traffic lights, crossed the runway near the landward end. My mother told me that the crash crews had always practised a crash at the far end by driving out of the terminal area onto the main road and then back onto the runway past the traffic lights, as there was no taxiway and they weren't allowed to block use of the runway. When the Connie crashed it skidded right down the runway. The crash crews, instead of following it, drove out onto the main road, as in training, then got stuck in the traffic waiting at the traffic lights. I am sure it didn't invert as stated on the Aviation Safety Network database because she told me that the pax died a terrible death crowded around the exit door which they couldn't open because it had jammed with the distortion of the frame - and no crash crew on the outside. RIP.
3. She also knew well the crew on Cathay Pacific's one and only DC4 which was shot down by the Communist Chinese (allegedly in retaliation for carrying French gold to Saigon). It is horrifying in these so much safer days to think of how many losses there were then (I am merely a satisfied SLF).
1. In 1953 as a teenager at school I flew by Comets London - S'pore for the summer holiday. My mother worked as Senior Ground Stewardess for Mansfields (GHA for BOAC and Malayan Airways) at Kallang to save the money for my fare - £300, as a 'student' I paid single for a return (I did all my own bookings and arrangements from school).
The sectors were Rome, Beirut (for which I needed a transit visa for a one hour re-fuelling stop), Bahrain, Karachi, Calcutta, Rangoon, S'pore. The sectors were so short because of the Comet's limited range. And as I remember it she flew higher than today - >40k? because of fuel burn. Result was that one climbed (and descended) like a fighter, plus the effect of poorer pressurisation, so after 24 hrs elapsed I arrived in S'pore needing another 24 hrs to recover.
Outward a/c was G-ALYU (Yoke Uncle that subsequently failed in the Farnborough pressurisation test). Return as I remember it was on G-AMAV, which I understood was a 1A meant originally for Canadian Pacific - 44 seats to the 1's 36 seats. Can the experts confirm? I still have a photo of Yoke Uncle at Rangoon - anybody interested if I post it?
Flying on the first Comets had the glamour of an early Concorde - special call at London Airport North (with its WWll huts as terminal) was for the 'Jetliner to Singapore'. My mother claimed to have done the PA announcing the arrival at Kallang ending with the words 'and my son's on it'!
2. re the Connie crash at Kallang in March 54. My mother was there (waiting to do the PA announcing arrival). Kallang was close in town and a major road, controlled by traffic lights, crossed the runway near the landward end. My mother told me that the crash crews had always practised a crash at the far end by driving out of the terminal area onto the main road and then back onto the runway past the traffic lights, as there was no taxiway and they weren't allowed to block use of the runway. When the Connie crashed it skidded right down the runway. The crash crews, instead of following it, drove out onto the main road, as in training, then got stuck in the traffic waiting at the traffic lights. I am sure it didn't invert as stated on the Aviation Safety Network database because she told me that the pax died a terrible death crowded around the exit door which they couldn't open because it had jammed with the distortion of the frame - and no crash crew on the outside. RIP.
3. She also knew well the crew on Cathay Pacific's one and only DC4 which was shot down by the Communist Chinese (allegedly in retaliation for carrying French gold to Saigon). It is horrifying in these so much safer days to think of how many losses there were then (I am merely a satisfied SLF).
a link that may be of interest re the Stockport Air disaster.
Thank you for the link, which I had not seen. PC Bill Oliver (actually Phil Oliver) mentioned there, first on the scene and well-known for it, was my brother's best man at his wedding a couple of years later, and I remember chatting to him about it on that day. By then just regarded as "one of those things" that the police have to attend to and deal with.
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Operated a Stratocruiser for a brief time, many years ago, altho this particular one had been just slightly altered to carry missles.
The B377 was pretty much an electric aeroplane, as I recall, gear and flaps, altho the brakes were of the Hayes expander tube hybraulic type.
The R4360 engine was a tempermental beast, and best left in the care of the Flight Engineer.
It used both a supercharger and a turbosupercharger, the latter having a bleed for cabin pressurisation.
Not a bad arrangement.
The engine was especially developed for the B-36 bomber, and when mounted in the tractor configration, the cylinder row offset was the wrong way 'round for proper cooling, the rear row could become quite hot (CHT's) during the climb...OK in the cruise.
A very majestic flight deck.
Pilots entered their respective seats from 'round the 'outside' as there was a lot of room.
Fuel consumption was in the neighborhood of 530 US gallons/hr, as I recall, and each engine oil tank (34 gallons) was further supplied with a 58 gallon central fuselage tank, via transfer pumps, in flight.
A truly delightful aeroplane to fly...
The B377 was pretty much an electric aeroplane, as I recall, gear and flaps, altho the brakes were of the Hayes expander tube hybraulic type.
The R4360 engine was a tempermental beast, and best left in the care of the Flight Engineer.
It used both a supercharger and a turbosupercharger, the latter having a bleed for cabin pressurisation.
Not a bad arrangement.
The engine was especially developed for the B-36 bomber, and when mounted in the tractor configration, the cylinder row offset was the wrong way 'round for proper cooling, the rear row could become quite hot (CHT's) during the climb...OK in the cruise.
A very majestic flight deck.
Pilots entered their respective seats from 'round the 'outside' as there was a lot of room.
Fuel consumption was in the neighborhood of 530 US gallons/hr, as I recall, and each engine oil tank (34 gallons) was further supplied with a 58 gallon central fuselage tank, via transfer pumps, in flight.
A truly delightful aeroplane to fly...
Thought police antagonist
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A very majestic flight deck
However, the other notable feature was the 1950's sink in the toilet ! The same sort that we have in our homes no less--no weight penalty in those days it seems !
