The demise of Von Richthofen
Not so N, but still FG
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The demise of Von Richthofen
This, typically slightly cheesy, Channel 5 documentary last night featured the usual assortment of astonishing geeks (where do they get them?) examining in minute detail how the Red Baron met his end. The programme did, however make a reasonably convincing case that one of two Australian soldiers shot Von Richthofen down. I thought that the final conclusion, that Pvt Evans fired the fatal shot, discounted the indication of the programme's own laser tests that Sgt Popkin seemed to be in a better position to score hits as the aircraft passed. Discounting Popkin as the shooter on the basis of his own recollection, many years later, that he fired from the front, was not entirely compelling, in my view. Anyway, I 'm not sure that they can be that certain of where people were standing, or of the aircraft's precise track, based on the reports of witnesses and participants.
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...............and although I did not fly a Camel at speeds in excess of around 100-120mph, and then only to start a loop or roll. I cannot easily accept that it flew at 180mph, in a shallow dive, as claimed in the programme, on a rotary!
Just like the rest of the programme there were too many ifs and buts. Not very convincing stuff at all.
Just like the rest of the programme there were too many ifs and buts. Not very convincing stuff at all.
Not so N, but still FG
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Fair points, Camel Pilot. As always with these programmes the documentary makers presented their findings as though they had conclusively solved the problem. These programmes often put forward as a dramatic scoop a theory that has been current for years. After all, it is hardly news these days to assert that the Baron was probably killed by ground fire rather than by Captain Brown in his Camel.
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On the other hand and a little off topic, can you imagine gettting CAA permission to fly a jodel at 200 feet at night over a bunch of onlookers while someone fires a laser at you. 
Still it was a lucky shot whoever fired it.
Still it was a lucky shot whoever fired it.
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Exxxcccuuusse Meeeeee!!!!!!!!!!
As one who spends many leisure hours endeavouring to put a 10gramm projectile through the very centre of a large piece of cardboard at a range of 500 to 600 yards, it could have been a very good shot and not lucky at all!!!
(I regularly see shooters score 148 to 150 out of 150 at those ranges).
As one who spends many leisure hours endeavouring to put a 10gramm projectile through the very centre of a large piece of cardboard at a range of 500 to 600 yards, it could have been a very good shot and not lucky at all!!!
(I regularly see shooters score 148 to 150 out of 150 at those ranges).
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800 yards, moving target, 100 knots, thumping recoil, combat conditions...
both good and lucky?
PS: In the prog they tried firing at a large sheet of card with a Lewis Gun but they only hit with about ten per cent of their rounds, and the card was not being flown at speed by a famous air fighter.
PPS: I wonder if the Jodel pilots were troubled by the laser in their eyes? They can't have had the red goggles on as they were night flying. Incidentally, there are said to be various weapons tests underway to enable helicopters and ground forces to defend against jets by the use of pilot-blinding lasers (the use of such weapons would be contrary to current international law).
both good and lucky?
PS: In the prog they tried firing at a large sheet of card with a Lewis Gun but they only hit with about ten per cent of their rounds, and the card was not being flown at speed by a famous air fighter.
PPS: I wonder if the Jodel pilots were troubled by the laser in their eyes? They can't have had the red goggles on as they were night flying. Incidentally, there are said to be various weapons tests underway to enable helicopters and ground forces to defend against jets by the use of pilot-blinding lasers (the use of such weapons would be contrary to current international law).
Last edited by FNG; 20th May 2004 at 15:34.
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CamelPilot
That is just awesome!!
I've never had the honour to encounter anyone who flew Camels, probably one of the best fighters in the history of air combat.
Some folk say it could outmaneuver even the Fokker Triplane. Is that true in your opinion?
Did you know Captain Brown? Were you in the same squadron? The 209th if my memory serves me. Did you know any of the other Canadian aces? Billy Barker, or Ray Collishaw?
I think it's just amazing this forum is run by someone who was part of history. If I may impose on your time Sir, I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd love to hear some tales.
Thank you in anticipation.
That is just awesome!!
I've never had the honour to encounter anyone who flew Camels, probably one of the best fighters in the history of air combat.
Some folk say it could outmaneuver even the Fokker Triplane. Is that true in your opinion?
Did you know Captain Brown? Were you in the same squadron? The 209th if my memory serves me. Did you know any of the other Canadian aces? Billy Barker, or Ray Collishaw?
I think it's just amazing this forum is run by someone who was part of history. If I may impose on your time Sir, I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd love to hear some tales.
Thank you in anticipation.
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Having done some stuff with air to air lasers a few years ago if the lasers were of lessthan a certain power there would not normally be a problem, though the night bit is somewhat troubling. Suppose the night bit made for better pictures for the "documentary" (though what they are documenting who knows). The problem with low power lasers in the air is specular reflections off transparancies and the possibility of somebody using optics (binoculars) and getting right on boresight of the laser for a few minutes and possibly burning something.
Bottom line is I wouldn't be too worried with the laser pointer variety, anything more powerful and at night I would look ata little closer.
Bottom line is I wouldn't be too worried with the laser pointer variety, anything more powerful and at night I would look ata little closer.
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er the box the laser was coming out of was the size of a a TV camera and it was lighting up the target very nicely at 800 yards, so i guess it was fairly high powered.
As for my earlier post about it being a lucky shot, my wife has pointed out that it is a matter of perspective. If you happened to be sat in a scarlet Fokker triplane at the time you probably considered it an unlucky shot.
As for my earlier post about it being a lucky shot, my wife has pointed out that it is a matter of perspective. If you happened to be sat in a scarlet Fokker triplane at the time you probably considered it an unlucky shot.
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Bronx
I am so sorry! I feel somewhat embarrassed!
I should have said that the Camels I flew were replicas. This was in the period '77-'81. I am not THAT old but I can quite see how you thought I was.
However, I did also fly the DR1 in 'dogfights' with the Camel and vice versa. The Camel was good, and often better than the DR1 but the latter was more manouverable when flying at the speeds dogfights were then fought - 50-80mph.
Sorry again. I think I assumed that people knew I flew a host of replicas and didn't think for a minute that someone would still be thinking that a real Camel pilot would still be alive.
The last real Camel pilot I knew died in 1981 at the age of 102, and I am ashamed to say that I have now forgotten his full name - he was simply known to us as 'Jabbo' - but was an ace.
I am so sorry! I feel somewhat embarrassed!
I should have said that the Camels I flew were replicas. This was in the period '77-'81. I am not THAT old but I can quite see how you thought I was.
However, I did also fly the DR1 in 'dogfights' with the Camel and vice versa. The Camel was good, and often better than the DR1 but the latter was more manouverable when flying at the speeds dogfights were then fought - 50-80mph.
Sorry again. I think I assumed that people knew I flew a host of replicas and didn't think for a minute that someone would still be thinking that a real Camel pilot would still be alive.
The last real Camel pilot I knew died in 1981 at the age of 102, and I am ashamed to say that I have now forgotten his full name - he was simply known to us as 'Jabbo' - but was an ace.
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Bronx:
It was widely (but incorrectly) reported that the last surviving RFC pilot was Hubert Williams, who died in September, 2002 at the age of 106 (see here). Yes, he flew the mighty Camel.
Actually, the last surviving RFC pilot was Canadian Henry Botterell, who died on January 3, 2003 also aged 106 years and also with combat time in the Camel: see further here.
Regards,
MLS-12D
It was widely (but incorrectly) reported that the last surviving RFC pilot was Hubert Williams, who died in September, 2002 at the age of 106 (see here). Yes, he flew the mighty Camel.
Actually, the last surviving RFC pilot was Canadian Henry Botterell, who died on January 3, 2003 also aged 106 years and also with combat time in the Camel: see further here.
Regards,
MLS-12D
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What to Believe?
My Grandfather was a Major in an Australian army unit on the Western Front during WW1. He died in 1949 from complications arising from his WW1 injuries just before I was born.
When I was a young boy, my grandmother would often show me a V-shaped piece of metal as well as a piece of sawn-off curved timber which she claimed was scavenged by my grandfather from the wreck of Richthofen's aircraft after it crash landed near an Australian army unit on the Western Front.
According to my grandmother, the V-shaped piece of metal was part of one of Richthofen's wing struts and the curved timber was part of a wing frame (not the main spar but the things that go across the spar). Unfortunately, one of my aunts threw these items away after my grandmother passed away - not realising their historical significance.
My grandmother often told me that my grandfather was of the absolute conviction that Richthofen was definitely shot down by Australian ground fire and that the other story re Capt Brown was a complete myth - and she told me this around 1958 to 1960 - long before I ever heard it being discussed n the public domain. The reason why he had Richhtofen's aircraft parts in his possession was because my grandfather was part of the unit that first reached the aicraft after it had crashlanded and also took custody of Richhtofen's body. Unfortunately, the Oz soldiers were indiscriminate and hacked Richhtofen's plane to pieces for souvenirs.
I have never been able to historically substantiate any of these facts, so they may be incorrect. This is simply relaying what my grandmother told me when I was young. I thought this would be of interest to PPrune readers of this thread.
When I was a young boy, my grandmother would often show me a V-shaped piece of metal as well as a piece of sawn-off curved timber which she claimed was scavenged by my grandfather from the wreck of Richthofen's aircraft after it crash landed near an Australian army unit on the Western Front.
According to my grandmother, the V-shaped piece of metal was part of one of Richthofen's wing struts and the curved timber was part of a wing frame (not the main spar but the things that go across the spar). Unfortunately, one of my aunts threw these items away after my grandmother passed away - not realising their historical significance.
My grandmother often told me that my grandfather was of the absolute conviction that Richthofen was definitely shot down by Australian ground fire and that the other story re Capt Brown was a complete myth - and she told me this around 1958 to 1960 - long before I ever heard it being discussed n the public domain. The reason why he had Richhtofen's aircraft parts in his possession was because my grandfather was part of the unit that first reached the aicraft after it had crashlanded and also took custody of Richhtofen's body. Unfortunately, the Oz soldiers were indiscriminate and hacked Richhtofen's plane to pieces for souvenirs.
I have never been able to historically substantiate any of these facts, so they may be incorrect. This is simply relaying what my grandmother told me when I was young. I thought this would be of interest to PPrune readers of this thread.
