Shuttleworth Display, 2 May
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Mr Chips, did you manage to figure out where the hair stopped and the jacket began?
In all honesty, Old Warden shows wouldn't be complete without her.
Nice to meet you on Sunday - go on, post some photos, aviation related ones.
Rob
In all honesty, Old Warden shows wouldn't be complete without her.
Nice to meet you on Sunday - go on, post some photos, aviation related ones.
Rob
Last edited by Duxford_Eagles; 4th May 2004 at 18:28.
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LowNSlow,
As far as I know the Avro Triplane has a 105 hp Cirrus Hermes II engine compared to the original 35 hp Green engine.
How much quicker is the Collection Triplane compared with the original? The Boxkite on the other hand appears to have a performance closer to the original British & Colonial Aeroplane company examples, despite having a 90 hp Lycoming engine as opposed to the originals 50/ 70 hp Gnome.
Batchy.
As far as I know the Avro Triplane has a 105 hp Cirrus Hermes II engine compared to the original 35 hp Green engine.
How much quicker is the Collection Triplane compared with the original? The Boxkite on the other hand appears to have a performance closer to the original British & Colonial Aeroplane company examples, despite having a 90 hp Lycoming engine as opposed to the originals 50/ 70 hp Gnome.
Batchy.
Batchy ta for the correction, it certainly looks authentic especially when compared to the boxed in Lyc in (on?) the Boxkite.
Dragging all those wings, wires and struts around on 35hp must have been terrifying!
Dragging all those wings, wires and struts around on 35hp must have been terrifying!
Lads, you should know that The Collection would never employ an American engine.....
The Box. is powered by a R-R Continental (I know-licence-built !), and the Cirrus in the Tripe. is about 70 hp.( unless it`s been tuned !)
The Box. is powered by a R-R Continental (I know-licence-built !), and the Cirrus in the Tripe. is about 70 hp.( unless it`s been tuned !)
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Sycamore,
According to the Official Shuttleworth Collection website the Avro's Cirrus Hermes is rated at 105 hp, although this could be a misprint.
The info I posted on the Triplane & Boxkite was taken from David Ogilvy's 'Shuttleworth the Historic Aeroplanes' Published by Airlife.
I checked through Allen Wheeler's book 'Building Aeroplanes for those Magnificent Men' and the Boxkite was indeed fitted with a Rolls Royce C.90 Continental engine. Although this may have been altered over the years.
Thanks for the correction, do you have first hand knowledge of these magnificent machines.
Batchy
According to the Official Shuttleworth Collection website the Avro's Cirrus Hermes is rated at 105 hp, although this could be a misprint.
The info I posted on the Triplane & Boxkite was taken from David Ogilvy's 'Shuttleworth the Historic Aeroplanes' Published by Airlife.
I checked through Allen Wheeler's book 'Building Aeroplanes for those Magnificent Men' and the Boxkite was indeed fitted with a Rolls Royce C.90 Continental engine. Although this may have been altered over the years.
Thanks for the correction, do you have first hand knowledge of these magnificent machines.
Batchy
I've checked with the good people at OW and discoveed that my SVAS membership had lapsed but is now current 
All who like old aeroplanes should join then they wouldn't have to charge 15 sovs to the uninitiated to see wonderful aeroplanes displayed by excellent pilots
All who like old aeroplanes should join then they wouldn't have to charge 15 sovs to the uninitiated to see wonderful aeroplanes displayed by excellent pilots
Batchy,there is a discrepancy between what is written in the aircraft narrative, and what is in the engines section. Only Chris would be able to tell you , or Airbedane.I knew it was a Cirrus, but I wouldn`t put the power output as high as 105.
If you have read "From Bleriot...to Spitfire".Airlife, you will get a real feel for flying the Boxkite and the Avro Tripe. Whilst the Box. feels underpowered somewhat, it is more controllable about all axes, as long as one stays ahead of it and as it has a canard in front ,one is always working to prevent an upset if you don`t apply a correction immediately you feel the canard affected by a gust.Personally , I feel it would perform better with a rotary and a bigger prop, but only time will tell..............
The Triplane, on the other hand, laterally, and directionally, feel as though you are on top of a beach-ball and if you apply too much wing-warp you`ll not recover, and if you don`t apply rudder briskly to balance you will end up in deep $%&t !!
You may notice that flatter turns are done in the Tripe.
To keep balance it is necessary to have a steady stream of hot air/ exhaust smoke on your left cheek at all times, as the a/c does not have any "fin-area" behind the pilot,and so one has to work at balance all the time.
I would always prefer to fly the Box, but if push comes to shove, what is better than floating over the countryside on a calm summer`s day/ evening at about 35-40 mph, with a cooling breeze up the leg of your trousers .........!!! Waving to couples in cornfields caught "in flagrante" !!!!!!!!!!
Ed. later..Airbedane may have other thoughts,but really only helicopter pilots and maybe the odd Harrier pilot can cope with these a/c !!!!! Takes tin hat and retires awaiting incoming !!!!!!!!
If you have read "From Bleriot...to Spitfire".Airlife, you will get a real feel for flying the Boxkite and the Avro Tripe. Whilst the Box. feels underpowered somewhat, it is more controllable about all axes, as long as one stays ahead of it and as it has a canard in front ,one is always working to prevent an upset if you don`t apply a correction immediately you feel the canard affected by a gust.Personally , I feel it would perform better with a rotary and a bigger prop, but only time will tell..............
The Triplane, on the other hand, laterally, and directionally, feel as though you are on top of a beach-ball and if you apply too much wing-warp you`ll not recover, and if you don`t apply rudder briskly to balance you will end up in deep $%&t !!
You may notice that flatter turns are done in the Tripe.
To keep balance it is necessary to have a steady stream of hot air/ exhaust smoke on your left cheek at all times, as the a/c does not have any "fin-area" behind the pilot,and so one has to work at balance all the time.
I would always prefer to fly the Box, but if push comes to shove, what is better than floating over the countryside on a calm summer`s day/ evening at about 35-40 mph, with a cooling breeze up the leg of your trousers .........!!! Waving to couples in cornfields caught "in flagrante" !!!!!!!!!!
Ed. later..Airbedane may have other thoughts,but really only helicopter pilots and maybe the odd Harrier pilot can cope with these a/c !!!!! Takes tin hat and retires awaiting incoming !!!!!!!!
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Waving to couples in cornfields caught "in flagrante". quote - Sycamore.
Your talents are wasted on PPrune, Sycamore! That wonderful closing line, transported me miles away from this damm PC screen. And who said romance is dead.
Getting away from cornfields for a moment and back to Boxkites, the Allen Wheeler book touches on the Boxkite engine / prop relationship quite well.
The builders had originally intended to use a 65 hp RR Continental, but they quickly found that although the engine was more powerful in hp terms than the original 50 hp Gnome, the modern engine coupled to a smaller prop gave less thrust. Hence the larger 90 hp Continental, although this came with a new set of problems, overheating and carburretter icing!
There was some talk of installing a Gnome in the Boxkite a few years back. Does the collection have a spare Gnome and apropriate prop.
Batchy.
Your talents are wasted on PPrune, Sycamore! That wonderful closing line, transported me miles away from this damm PC screen. And who said romance is dead.
Getting away from cornfields for a moment and back to Boxkites, the Allen Wheeler book touches on the Boxkite engine / prop relationship quite well.
The builders had originally intended to use a 65 hp RR Continental, but they quickly found that although the engine was more powerful in hp terms than the original 50 hp Gnome, the modern engine coupled to a smaller prop gave less thrust. Hence the larger 90 hp Continental, although this came with a new set of problems, overheating and carburretter icing!
There was some talk of installing a Gnome in the Boxkite a few years back. Does the collection have a spare Gnome and apropriate prop.
Batchy.
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The engine in the Triplane is indeed a 105HP Cirrus Hermes, the engine in the Box is a R-R 0200 Continental of 100HP.
A well as having a vicious gust response, being unstable around two of it's three axes and neutrally stable about the third, the Box suffers greatly from lack of thrust, I've been campaigning to get a rotary in it for some time. The bigger prop and lower revs of the rotary provide a more efficient transfer of power to thrust, which should solve at least one of the problems (or should I say 'characteristics').
I'm not going to bite on the helo question, Syc, but what I will say is that the Box requires greater than average stick and rudder skills, which are not necessarily unique to helicopter (or Harrier) pilots.
A
A well as having a vicious gust response, being unstable around two of it's three axes and neutrally stable about the third, the Box suffers greatly from lack of thrust, I've been campaigning to get a rotary in it for some time. The bigger prop and lower revs of the rotary provide a more efficient transfer of power to thrust, which should solve at least one of the problems (or should I say 'characteristics').
I'm not going to bite on the helo question, Syc, but what I will say is that the Box requires greater than average stick and rudder skills, which are not necessarily unique to helicopter (or Harrier) pilots.
A
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As an non-pilot and watcher (a penguin!) may I suggest that:
"There are pilots and then there are Shuttleworth pilots."
Ah, how sycophantic. However, what I mean is that the quality, SAFETY and ability to demonstrate the a/c is best at Old Warden IMHO, compared to anywhere I've seen or anywhere I've heard of.
Biggest thanks goes to Chris Morris & team, without who the pilots would be a bunch of lads running around a field flapping their arms, but the whole aparently effortless, relaxed and safe way that an OW display 'just happens' indicates the professional achievements of the whole team. I had heard that the pilots flew other things, but who cares? The fun's here!
Cheers
James K
"There are pilots and then there are Shuttleworth pilots."
Ah, how sycophantic. However, what I mean is that the quality, SAFETY and ability to demonstrate the a/c is best at Old Warden IMHO, compared to anywhere I've seen or anywhere I've heard of.
Biggest thanks goes to Chris Morris & team, without who the pilots would be a bunch of lads running around a field flapping their arms, but the whole aparently effortless, relaxed and safe way that an OW display 'just happens' indicates the professional achievements of the whole team. I had heard that the pilots flew other things, but who cares? The fun's here!
Cheers
James K
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Thanks for the acolade JDK, but your'e only partially correct. There is certainly a well oiled and cohesive team at Old Warden, but it goes much deeper than the pilots and engineers. You can add (in no particular order), Display organiser, ATC, SVAS, Private owners, visiting acts, Airfield Helpers, Photographers, Gate staff, fire fighters, car parkers, restaurant staff, admin staff, Car drivers, local police, Shuttleworth Trust staff, CAA, PA staff, Visiting aircraft staff, etc, etc....(and apologies if I've missed anyone)
The pilots and to a certain extent the engineers tend to be in the public eye, but without the rest behind us, it'd all fall into nothing.
The pilots and to a certain extent the engineers tend to be in the public eye, but without the rest behind us, it'd all fall into nothing.
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Hear hear.
And often overlooked is all the work before and the work after, that the public never sees.
While it is easy to overpraise pilots (Q: Why bonedomes? A: because otherwise their heads will expand to fill the canopy...) one of the key facets of OW to me is the safety. No 'dare-devil' pilots or crews, and a relaxed atmosphere because of it. Here's to an accident free 2004.
Looking forward to the next flying eve, when I'll be getting my first OW 'fix' of 2004.
Cheers
James K
And often overlooked is all the work before and the work after, that the public never sees.
While it is easy to overpraise pilots (Q: Why bonedomes? A: because otherwise their heads will expand to fill the canopy...) one of the key facets of OW to me is the safety. No 'dare-devil' pilots or crews, and a relaxed atmosphere because of it. Here's to an accident free 2004.
Looking forward to the next flying eve, when I'll be getting my first OW 'fix' of 2004.
Cheers
James K
