Chuck is back in a Cat!
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Hmmm,
The owner of the aircraft tells a slightly different story (yes, know him and more importantly, his maintenance supervisor, personally, for many years).
During engine runs, no oil pressure was observed on one engine, yet high power runs were done anyway (hello....goodbye master rod bearing).
Strike one.
During high speed taxi tests, no one was watching engine instruments, contrary to detailed briefings beforehand.
Strike two.
The Edwards Brothers apparently walked off the job after the pilot was told to...don't come Monday.
Strike three.
It generally takes two to tango, and it seems only one wanted to dance.
A new pilot has been found, is the latest information.
PS: The maintenance supervisor is positively the very finest round engine guy I have ever met, and if our plan is successful, will restore a DC-6B for our account.
The owner of the aircraft tells a slightly different story (yes, know him and more importantly, his maintenance supervisor, personally, for many years).
During engine runs, no oil pressure was observed on one engine, yet high power runs were done anyway (hello....goodbye master rod bearing).
Strike one.
During high speed taxi tests, no one was watching engine instruments, contrary to detailed briefings beforehand.
Strike two.
The Edwards Brothers apparently walked off the job after the pilot was told to...don't come Monday.
Strike three.
It generally takes two to tango, and it seems only one wanted to dance.
A new pilot has been found, is the latest information.
PS: The maintenance supervisor is positively the very finest round engine guy I have ever met, and if our plan is successful, will restore a DC-6B for our account.
Last edited by 411A; 23rd May 2004 at 05:27.
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411A :
Very interesting comments, and of course quite predicitable.
As in all cases where two parties differ there will be two stories.
After flying P&W 1830's for around then thousand hours with no previous complaints regarding my handling of these engines I am not concerned about Bob & John defending their position with claims such as the above.
Had they left it there they may have convinced a few people that do not know me that I do not know what I am doing.
But I have on paper and from two phone calls from the USA the statement by Bob that I lied to him about my being qualified to fly the airplane due to my medical being invalid.
Now of course that is a very simple matter for me to prove as Transport Canada has on record that I did then and do now in fact have a valid medical for my ATP. I also can prove that Bob had two copies of my documentsa, including my medical, one sent by fax and one scanned copy sent by e-mail. As well the Israeli's have a copy, including the valid medical document
However by acusing me of dishonesty regarding my medical he has crossed the line and has opened the door to defending himself from a lible suit for putting that statement in writing, which I have a copy of and slander for making the same statement to a person whom he was asking to fly the ferry filght.
Anyhow 411A, the people at North Weald have already made their own judgements as my ability to deliver a PBY anywhere on earth and common knowledge regarding all the circumstances surrounding our departing the project will suffice to clear the air in that group.
By the way the insurance people were courious as to why for the first time during my career I walked away from an aircraft delivery. The very first thing I did was call my insurance company and advise him that I was no longer involved in the ferry of Bob's Cat due to safety considerations........they have been insuring me for many, many years to ferry PBY's in about forty different countries. In fact I delivered a PBY from North Weald to Virginia just last July.
Believe me the insurance people know me very well and on a personal level aside from insuring me.
So to sum up, I was given an ultimatum by Bob that I was being payed by him ( by the way he to this day has not payed me a dime, nor has he reimbursed me for my airfare and expenses ) and I had two choices...to do as he ordered, including him flying in the left seat with me along to make it legal. He also stated flatly that he would decide how and when the airplane would be flown and if I did not agree to those conditions he would find another pilot.
I of course went to my room and packed my things and went back to Canada.
Next time you are talking to Bob and John ask them about the fuel load they told me that I was to depart North Weald with so he could get the tax rebate.
Anyhow thats my story and for me it was all about safety being compromized if I were to have accepted Bob's ultimatum.
PS :
By the way 411A, I have been flying PBY's since 1968 and to the best of my knowledge am the higest time PBY pilot still flying them, and Bob and John are the first to make the determination that I do not know what I am doing.............hmmmmmmmmmmm
Chuck Ellsworth
Very interesting comments, and of course quite predicitable.
As in all cases where two parties differ there will be two stories.
After flying P&W 1830's for around then thousand hours with no previous complaints regarding my handling of these engines I am not concerned about Bob & John defending their position with claims such as the above.
Had they left it there they may have convinced a few people that do not know me that I do not know what I am doing.
But I have on paper and from two phone calls from the USA the statement by Bob that I lied to him about my being qualified to fly the airplane due to my medical being invalid.
Now of course that is a very simple matter for me to prove as Transport Canada has on record that I did then and do now in fact have a valid medical for my ATP. I also can prove that Bob had two copies of my documentsa, including my medical, one sent by fax and one scanned copy sent by e-mail. As well the Israeli's have a copy, including the valid medical document
However by acusing me of dishonesty regarding my medical he has crossed the line and has opened the door to defending himself from a lible suit for putting that statement in writing, which I have a copy of and slander for making the same statement to a person whom he was asking to fly the ferry filght.
Anyhow 411A, the people at North Weald have already made their own judgements as my ability to deliver a PBY anywhere on earth and common knowledge regarding all the circumstances surrounding our departing the project will suffice to clear the air in that group.
By the way the insurance people were courious as to why for the first time during my career I walked away from an aircraft delivery. The very first thing I did was call my insurance company and advise him that I was no longer involved in the ferry of Bob's Cat due to safety considerations........they have been insuring me for many, many years to ferry PBY's in about forty different countries. In fact I delivered a PBY from North Weald to Virginia just last July.
Believe me the insurance people know me very well and on a personal level aside from insuring me.
So to sum up, I was given an ultimatum by Bob that I was being payed by him ( by the way he to this day has not payed me a dime, nor has he reimbursed me for my airfare and expenses ) and I had two choices...to do as he ordered, including him flying in the left seat with me along to make it legal. He also stated flatly that he would decide how and when the airplane would be flown and if I did not agree to those conditions he would find another pilot.
I of course went to my room and packed my things and went back to Canada.
Next time you are talking to Bob and John ask them about the fuel load they told me that I was to depart North Weald with so he could get the tax rebate.
Anyhow thats my story and for me it was all about safety being compromized if I were to have accepted Bob's ultimatum.
PS :
By the way 411A, I have been flying PBY's since 1968 and to the best of my knowledge am the higest time PBY pilot still flying them, and Bob and John are the first to make the determination that I do not know what I am doing.............hmmmmmmmmmmm
Chuck Ellsworth
Last edited by Chuck Ellsworth; 23rd May 2004 at 16:28.
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Sorry it did not work out Chuck, but on the other hand I am only an outside observer, and really have no idea who is correct...only reporting what I was told.
I have personally known both for years, in fact these folks are the only individuals that are allowed to lay a wrench on my personal aircraft, and have been for a very long time.
As in all business matters, there are two (sometimes more) stories to be told.
Many times the facts are somewhere in between.
Wish you well.
PS: Did you really do rather high power engine runs with minimal (or no) oil pressure indication on one?
I have personally known both for years, in fact these folks are the only individuals that are allowed to lay a wrench on my personal aircraft, and have been for a very long time.
As in all business matters, there are two (sometimes more) stories to be told.
Many times the facts are somewhere in between.
Wish you well.
PS: Did you really do rather high power engine runs with minimal (or no) oil pressure indication on one?
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411A:
The simple answer to your question is no.
We pre oiled and on the first start got no oil pressure, shut down after about fifteen seconds.
We disconnected the oil pressure line and there was air in it.
We started again and shut down right away and drained more air out of the line.
We started the engine once more and waited for thirty seconds at low RPM and once again shut down and called it a day as it was late.
The next morning we pre oiled again once again checked the oil pressure line for air with oil pressure from the pre oil, on that start we got normal oil pressure indication.
We have been repairing and operating these engines for decades and do not run them without oil pressure at any RPM above the lowest it will run at, especially at tempertures as low as the temps. that we had that day due to the cold oil will result in excessive oil pressures at any RPM above that at which it will keep running......until we get 40 degrees C we do not exceed lowest RPM it will keep running at.
We determined the oil pressure problem was due to the pressure line and instrument having air or for some other reason failed to indicate pressure as once the pressure started to indicate it was normal.........
Bear in mind the engine was well pre oiled and was not run at any RPM other than that at which it would run with prime due to the temperature being around ten or so degrees C.
During all engine runs both Bob and John were parked in a car keeping warm, therefore their ability to determine what was transpireing in the airplane has to be examined from that basis.....
As to the accusation that we did not monitor the instruments during the high speed runs down the runway, that is ludricious, how did John determine that. He was in the compartment behind the cockpit and it is impossible for him to observe where we were looking....give me a break do you for a heartbeat think that me and my crew would ignore the instrument indications on test runs????
Naw, 411A what we have here is a situation wherein Bob clearly tried to intimidate me into doing things that in my opinion compromized the safety of the operating of that airplane, and the engine runs were not the only problems that we had.
To put it simple, Bob told me before I left Canada that he and John would fly the ferry flight with me and I informed him that in that case he could find another crew.
He then agreed that me and the Edwards Brothers would fix, test and ferry the airplane, with a ferry permit signed by a DAR because the airplane did not meet the standards required for an annual sign out.
I then booked a flight and went to England at Bobs request.
On the third day we were informed that John would sign out an annual and we did not need the DAR, I refused to fly it on that basis and both the Edwards Brothers stated they would not fly in it unless I were the Captain, so Bob agreed to having a ferry permit issued by an FAA DAR.......there were just to many problems that finally ended up with Bob giving me an ultimatum that I was not prepared to accept............end of story.
By the way we pulled the main screen on the engine that had the oil pressure indication problem after the test runs and there was only carbon in it...
However after sitting outside for eight years and never flown who knows what condition the bearings will be in due to possible galling of the surfaces?
Unless the case is split and the bearings checked it is anyones guess what condition the engines are in, the real test will be how long they run once the airplane starts flying.......
And that brings me back to the issue of fuel..........I will only put on enough fuel to safely fly short planned flights until we determine the condition of the engines after all those years sitting outside in the weather.....that way if I lose one I will be at an all up weight that I can safely fly it on one to the nearest airport , river, lake or ocean......
The real crunch came with my being told that they planned on fueling with enough fuel to fly to Dijon France then on the southern Italy before adding fuel to save money.
Then when he informed me he would fly it and my crew would not be flying it during the ferry flight period, I had no choice but to leave.
Anyhow everyone has lost on this one and the airplane has yet to fly......
Bottom line is I have never ever failed to deliver an airplane until this one..........
To walk away knowing I would probably lose two thousand dollars I must have been sure that I was justified to refuse Bob's ultimatum....
Hopefully everyone that reads this will consider what is most important, money, or safety and integrity.
My decision was to leave and I have not had reason to regret it.
Chuck
The simple answer to your question is no.
We pre oiled and on the first start got no oil pressure, shut down after about fifteen seconds.
We disconnected the oil pressure line and there was air in it.
We started again and shut down right away and drained more air out of the line.
We started the engine once more and waited for thirty seconds at low RPM and once again shut down and called it a day as it was late.
The next morning we pre oiled again once again checked the oil pressure line for air with oil pressure from the pre oil, on that start we got normal oil pressure indication.
We have been repairing and operating these engines for decades and do not run them without oil pressure at any RPM above the lowest it will run at, especially at tempertures as low as the temps. that we had that day due to the cold oil will result in excessive oil pressures at any RPM above that at which it will keep running......until we get 40 degrees C we do not exceed lowest RPM it will keep running at.
We determined the oil pressure problem was due to the pressure line and instrument having air or for some other reason failed to indicate pressure as once the pressure started to indicate it was normal.........
Bear in mind the engine was well pre oiled and was not run at any RPM other than that at which it would run with prime due to the temperature being around ten or so degrees C.
During all engine runs both Bob and John were parked in a car keeping warm, therefore their ability to determine what was transpireing in the airplane has to be examined from that basis.....
As to the accusation that we did not monitor the instruments during the high speed runs down the runway, that is ludricious, how did John determine that. He was in the compartment behind the cockpit and it is impossible for him to observe where we were looking....give me a break do you for a heartbeat think that me and my crew would ignore the instrument indications on test runs????
Naw, 411A what we have here is a situation wherein Bob clearly tried to intimidate me into doing things that in my opinion compromized the safety of the operating of that airplane, and the engine runs were not the only problems that we had.
To put it simple, Bob told me before I left Canada that he and John would fly the ferry flight with me and I informed him that in that case he could find another crew.
He then agreed that me and the Edwards Brothers would fix, test and ferry the airplane, with a ferry permit signed by a DAR because the airplane did not meet the standards required for an annual sign out.
I then booked a flight and went to England at Bobs request.
On the third day we were informed that John would sign out an annual and we did not need the DAR, I refused to fly it on that basis and both the Edwards Brothers stated they would not fly in it unless I were the Captain, so Bob agreed to having a ferry permit issued by an FAA DAR.......there were just to many problems that finally ended up with Bob giving me an ultimatum that I was not prepared to accept............end of story.
By the way we pulled the main screen on the engine that had the oil pressure indication problem after the test runs and there was only carbon in it...
However after sitting outside for eight years and never flown who knows what condition the bearings will be in due to possible galling of the surfaces?
Unless the case is split and the bearings checked it is anyones guess what condition the engines are in, the real test will be how long they run once the airplane starts flying.......
And that brings me back to the issue of fuel..........I will only put on enough fuel to safely fly short planned flights until we determine the condition of the engines after all those years sitting outside in the weather.....that way if I lose one I will be at an all up weight that I can safely fly it on one to the nearest airport , river, lake or ocean......
The real crunch came with my being told that they planned on fueling with enough fuel to fly to Dijon France then on the southern Italy before adding fuel to save money.
Then when he informed me he would fly it and my crew would not be flying it during the ferry flight period, I had no choice but to leave.
Anyhow everyone has lost on this one and the airplane has yet to fly......
Bottom line is I have never ever failed to deliver an airplane until this one..........
To walk away knowing I would probably lose two thousand dollars I must have been sure that I was justified to refuse Bob's ultimatum....
Hopefully everyone that reads this will consider what is most important, money, or safety and integrity.
My decision was to leave and I have not had reason to regret it.
Chuck
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It is possible to enter a claim in a small claims court up to about £2-3000 pounds (not sure of exact figure) and do it all online with a credit card for about £30.
I'll dig out the url of the website if you would like to try, its all very simple if i remember correctly.
NB
I'll dig out the url of the website if you would like to try, its all very simple if i remember correctly.
NB
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The Cat did a 45 minute test flight late this afternoon - very gentle manoeuvres. All seemed to go OK as they kept fairly close to the field. No photos I'm afraid as I was flying - they were waiting for me to land so they could take off.
RD
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NinjaBill and Rallye Driver :
Thanks for the suggestion NinjaBill.
And yes I would appreciate you explaining how to file such a claim.
I wonder how going to small claims court in England would work in a situation where I live in Canada and the person whom I would be filing the claim against lives in the USA?
Normally I would not discuss something like this in a public forum.
However in that it Rallye Driver had already posted pictures and was kind enough to relate the story about the Cat finally after all those years being brought back into flying condition again, and then having the been removed from the project I'm sort of in a situation whereby I feel I need to make it clear to everyone that I was left with no real choice but to leave.
I still find it really strange that anyone would waste all the time and money that the owner of this Cat has just because we would not agree to his demands regarding how to fly the airplane which in my opinion would have compromized safety far beyond that which I would accept.
Remember I have been flying these machines for around 4,500 hours all over the world since 1968 and the Cat is our specialty
It is no big deal that the airplane has sucessfully done a test flight, remember it was the Edwards Brothers that worked so hard and long to get into a condition that it would fly.
The main concern that I have now is that whoever is flying it as Captain has the ability to ensure that it be flown with due regard to safety..........it's a long way to Israel, there can be enough problems with these old airplanes without taking undue risks.
Chuck Ellsworth
Thanks for the suggestion NinjaBill.
And yes I would appreciate you explaining how to file such a claim.
I wonder how going to small claims court in England would work in a situation where I live in Canada and the person whom I would be filing the claim against lives in the USA?
Normally I would not discuss something like this in a public forum.
However in that it Rallye Driver had already posted pictures and was kind enough to relate the story about the Cat finally after all those years being brought back into flying condition again, and then having the been removed from the project I'm sort of in a situation whereby I feel I need to make it clear to everyone that I was left with no real choice but to leave.
I still find it really strange that anyone would waste all the time and money that the owner of this Cat has just because we would not agree to his demands regarding how to fly the airplane which in my opinion would have compromized safety far beyond that which I would accept.
Remember I have been flying these machines for around 4,500 hours all over the world since 1968 and the Cat is our specialty
It is no big deal that the airplane has sucessfully done a test flight, remember it was the Edwards Brothers that worked so hard and long to get into a condition that it would fly.
The main concern that I have now is that whoever is flying it as Captain has the ability to ensure that it be flown with due regard to safety..........it's a long way to Israel, there can be enough problems with these old airplanes without taking undue risks.
Chuck Ellsworth
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Chuck, I have a strong tendency to believe your side of the story - I have no idea how a Canadian citizen would fair against a US citizen through the UK small claims court, but I wish you the best of luck!
But, if ever I buy a Cat,
I'll be guided by you!
But, if ever I buy a Cat,
I'll be guided by you!
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Thank you treadiograph :
Sometimes in this industry we must make decisions based on what is the best course to take when put in a position that could put people at risk.
It is not an easy thing to discuss these things on a worldwide forum knowing that hundreds of people will be examining what you did and why.
Remember I do not hide behind an assumed name therefore I at least believe that what I do will set a good example for others.
I pride mydelf in being a high time professional pilot and have no problems with sharing this with everyone so you can maybe some day make the right decision by following my example.
If nothing else I would rather be a live chicken than a dead duck.
Chuck
Sometimes in this industry we must make decisions based on what is the best course to take when put in a position that could put people at risk.
It is not an easy thing to discuss these things on a worldwide forum knowing that hundreds of people will be examining what you did and why.
Remember I do not hide behind an assumed name therefore I at least believe that what I do will set a good example for others.
I pride mydelf in being a high time professional pilot and have no problems with sharing this with everyone so you can maybe some day make the right decision by following my example.
If nothing else I would rather be a live chicken than a dead duck.
Chuck
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Amen to that - off hand I can think of three serious Cat accidents (all water landings IIRC) in Europe over the last decade or two... no more please!
Not so N, but still FG
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I happened to be at North Weald warming up the engine in a Bulldog when the Catalina departed. Another a/c at the hold mentioned that there was a panel loose on the Cat, but I presume that they sorted it out.
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Yes water landings are accounting for some of the needless accidents due to improper pilot handling techniques.
The big problem is that as time goes by these aircraft are flown less and less, especially in water operations.
It has been several decades since PBY's have been used in public transport on the water and the qualified and experienced crews are no longer available to teach the newer pilots how to safely fly them in regard to water handling proceedures.
Even the fire bombing crews have moved on to more modern equipment such as the CL 215 / 415 and that leaves a very few pilots avaliable with the experience to properly train new pilots.
I constantly run across pilots who say " oh we have so and so who is going to fly our PBY and he has lots of float plane time " ( in some instances Albatross time. ) the truth is having that kind of seaplane experience and then trying to teach yourself to fly a PBY is like having nose wheel experience then just jumping into a tail wheel airplane and having it get out of control.
In any event this ferry flight should be all airport landings so water handling skills will not be a factor.
Chuck E.
The big problem is that as time goes by these aircraft are flown less and less, especially in water operations.
It has been several decades since PBY's have been used in public transport on the water and the qualified and experienced crews are no longer available to teach the newer pilots how to safely fly them in regard to water handling proceedures.
Even the fire bombing crews have moved on to more modern equipment such as the CL 215 / 415 and that leaves a very few pilots avaliable with the experience to properly train new pilots.
I constantly run across pilots who say " oh we have so and so who is going to fly our PBY and he has lots of float plane time " ( in some instances Albatross time. ) the truth is having that kind of seaplane experience and then trying to teach yourself to fly a PBY is like having nose wheel experience then just jumping into a tail wheel airplane and having it get out of control.
In any event this ferry flight should be all airport landings so water handling skills will not be a factor.
Chuck E.
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Quite a lot of photographs of the Cat on the Flypast Forum.
Remember her landing to go into store at EMA, must have been around 1985. I think she was ferried to North Weald a few years later by Dizzy Addicott. Didn't one of the main gears fail on landing?
Remember her landing to go into store at EMA, must have been around 1985. I think she was ferried to North Weald a few years later by Dizzy Addicott. Didn't one of the main gears fail on landing?
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VVG, yes she suffered a main gear failure at NW. Before that - early 1990s?- she was outside the Arnold hangar at EGKB for a while... along with sundry Lancaster and Lincoln parts!
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OK Chuck,
You have rather gone on and on about how...'you was wronged' and 'safety is being compromised'.
Seems to me---
the owner asked you to ferry and you walked away.
In this case, no payment is due....period.
OTOH, if they asked you to operate 'not in a legal fashion', you might have a legit beef.
SO, did they specifically ask you to break any 'rules of the air?'
You have rather gone on and on about how...'you was wronged' and 'safety is being compromised'.
Seems to me---
the owner asked you to ferry and you walked away.
In this case, no payment is due....period.
OTOH, if they asked you to operate 'not in a legal fashion', you might have a legit beef.
SO, did they specifically ask you to break any 'rules of the air?'
Not so N, but still FG
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Guys, is it really fair to Capt PPrune and his colleagues to thrash out the arguments publicly here, particularly given that identifiable individuals may be accused of acting in a manner which is unlawful or unsafe? Why not continue the debate by PM or email?
Mr Ellsworth, I shall send you a PM later with a few, I hope helpful, pointers on UK legal procedure. I have just been enjoying reading of your exploits taking a Catalina on the old Aeropostale St Exupery route.
Mr Ellsworth, I shall send you a PM later with a few, I hope helpful, pointers on UK legal procedure. I have just been enjoying reading of your exploits taking a Catalina on the old Aeropostale St Exupery route.
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FNG,
Unfortunately...or perhaps fortunately, depending on your point of view, Chuck asked for debate on this issue earlier in the thread, even with one post bringing it to the top once again.
Now he has mentioned that the owner of the aircraft in question asked him to operate in a manner that he considered unsafe (no problem with this, as he is certainly entitled to his opinion), but to then go on in a public forum and further mention that the owner asked him to operate in an illegal fashion, is altogether different.
If Chuck decides to go public with his complaints, would seem to me that to tell only half the story is to not lend credibility to his version of the whole scenario.
Seems reasonable to me anyway.
Unfortunately...or perhaps fortunately, depending on your point of view, Chuck asked for debate on this issue earlier in the thread, even with one post bringing it to the top once again.
Now he has mentioned that the owner of the aircraft in question asked him to operate in a manner that he considered unsafe (no problem with this, as he is certainly entitled to his opinion), but to then go on in a public forum and further mention that the owner asked him to operate in an illegal fashion, is altogether different.
If Chuck decides to go public with his complaints, would seem to me that to tell only half the story is to not lend credibility to his version of the whole scenario.
Seems reasonable to me anyway.