machine gun found
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machine gun found
Hello,
I have found a Browning .50 Cal machine gun off a WWII aircraft wreck in the Torres Strait (between the Northern tip of Australia and PNG).
I am interested in finding out what type of aircraft it is. Here is what I know of it :
Twin engine mid wing mounted three bladed prop.
No mid mounted turret.
Two crew seat.
Tail was missing however it has a single empenage (ie. not a lightning).
Two (or more) Browning .50 cals mounted in nose.
I am assuming it was American however cannot discount it being an Aussie A/C (I am unsure as to what they were armed with but wouldn't be surprised if it was Brownings).
Any help would be appreciate thanks,
Gramps
P.S. I have the serial number of the gun, does anyone know of a way I can find the aircraft type/history from this? I am not sure if the wreck has previously been reported or not.
I have found a Browning .50 Cal machine gun off a WWII aircraft wreck in the Torres Strait (between the Northern tip of Australia and PNG).
I am interested in finding out what type of aircraft it is. Here is what I know of it :
Twin engine mid wing mounted three bladed prop.
No mid mounted turret.
Two crew seat.
Tail was missing however it has a single empenage (ie. not a lightning).
Two (or more) Browning .50 cals mounted in nose.
I am assuming it was American however cannot discount it being an Aussie A/C (I am unsure as to what they were armed with but wouldn't be surprised if it was Brownings).
Any help would be appreciate thanks,
Gramps
P.S. I have the serial number of the gun, does anyone know of a way I can find the aircraft type/history from this? I am not sure if the wreck has previously been reported or not.
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1. What did the nose look like? Solid or glazed?
2. What is the approximate overall length/wingspan/fuselage diamater of the aircraft?
3. Are you sure they were .50 cal Brownings? Could they have been .303s?
4. You've mentioned the props. Any info on the engines?
5. Of what material is the aircraft constructed? Wood? Metal? Fabric? Wood in general with metal control surfaces?
6. Markings?
7. Are the seats exactly side-by-side or is one seat slightly forward of the other?
8. Is there a radiator on each wing between the engine and the fuselage?
If you give me the .303s, I'd be thinking De Havilland Mosquito. If not, I've got a couple others in mind, but based on what you've said thus far, I'm leaning toward the Mosquito (but I just don't think they had any with the .50s... B25s had the .50s, (and some of them were even converted to the four .50s in the nose in Australia), but if you're implying a crew of two, you're probably short for the Mitchell. Also, the Mitchell's got a turret...)
Dave
2. What is the approximate overall length/wingspan/fuselage diamater of the aircraft?
3. Are you sure they were .50 cal Brownings? Could they have been .303s?
4. You've mentioned the props. Any info on the engines?
5. Of what material is the aircraft constructed? Wood? Metal? Fabric? Wood in general with metal control surfaces?
6. Markings?
7. Are the seats exactly side-by-side or is one seat slightly forward of the other?
8. Is there a radiator on each wing between the engine and the fuselage?
If you give me the .303s, I'd be thinking De Havilland Mosquito. If not, I've got a couple others in mind, but based on what you've said thus far, I'm leaning toward the Mosquito (but I just don't think they had any with the .50s... B25s had the .50s, (and some of them were even converted to the four .50s in the nose in Australia), but if you're implying a crew of two, you're probably short for the Mitchell. Also, the Mitchell's got a turret...)
Dave
Last edited by av8boy; 9th Mar 2004 at 13:06.
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Gramps asked about a wreck he discovered.
Aviate 1138 having Googled, came up with this....
<http://home.att.net/~jbaugher4/a20_26.html >
I see there were a number of Havocs/Bostons which had .5 cal guns fitted. A pair each side in the nose.
Most action was around PNG and Australia both with ex RAF/Dutch and ex USAAF machines.
I would not expect it to be a Mosquito as the whole machine was wood and so it would have disappeared very quickly.
If in doubt - Google!
Aviate 1138
Aviate 1138 having Googled, came up with this....
<http://home.att.net/~jbaugher4/a20_26.html >
I see there were a number of Havocs/Bostons which had .5 cal guns fitted. A pair each side in the nose.
Most action was around PNG and Australia both with ex RAF/Dutch and ex USAAF machines.
I would not expect it to be a Mosquito as the whole machine was wood and so it would have disappeared very quickly.
If in doubt - Google!
Aviate 1138
I would have thought that a Beaufighter was more likely than the Mossie as there were more Beaus in the Far East. The Mossies had a nasty habit of coming unglued in the tropical dampnes......
simtech
You could be right. The Mk21 had revised armament with (from photos) only 2 machine guns in each wing. They could have been .50 cals.
However, they were still wing mounted, which tends to eliminate the Beau as gramps' mystery aircraft.
You could be right. The Mk21 had revised armament with (from photos) only 2 machine guns in each wing. They could have been .50 cals.
However, they were still wing mounted, which tends to eliminate the Beau as gramps' mystery aircraft.
Gramps. All the wrecks in and around the Straits are documented. Where exactly is/was the aircraft wreck?
Re Mosquito, I don't know of any Mosquitos in the Straits or PNG and suspect there wasn't any in that area. There is a couple Beauforts (and three other aircraft) in the area of Jacky Jacky airport at Bamaga, one Beaufort being nothing left but a few rusted pieces of metal, the other disassembled but reasonably complete. Both those are across the strip from the "Passenger Terminal" (or what's left of it!!!) Those wrecks certainly had all armament removed.
There is also four or five aircraft (including one or two Hudsons) off the end of the Horn Island airstrip and a fighter off the end of RW 08.
Richard See Kee at the Gateway Torres Strait Resort on Horn Island (which has it's own private war museum) knows every aircraft wreck in the Torres Strait region.
Re Mosquito, I don't know of any Mosquitos in the Straits or PNG and suspect there wasn't any in that area. There is a couple Beauforts (and three other aircraft) in the area of Jacky Jacky airport at Bamaga, one Beaufort being nothing left but a few rusted pieces of metal, the other disassembled but reasonably complete. Both those are across the strip from the "Passenger Terminal" (or what's left of it!!!) Those wrecks certainly had all armament removed.
There is also four or five aircraft (including one or two Hudsons) off the end of the Horn Island airstrip and a fighter off the end of RW 08.
Richard See Kee at the Gateway Torres Strait Resort on Horn Island (which has it's own private war museum) knows every aircraft wreck in the Torres Strait region.
If the crew seats are side by side then I'd go with CoodaShooda on the Havoc/Boston. If the seats are inline with one facing forward and one facing back then it's probably a Beaufighter.
Did the Aussie-built Beauforts have machine guns in the nose?
gramps was the nose glazed or "solid"
Did the Aussie-built Beauforts have machine guns in the nose?
gramps was the nose glazed or "solid"
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I am not particularly up on the various armaments carried by these types but could it possibly be an A-26 Invader.?
I seem to recollect reading about A-26s being used in that theatre and being specially armed for night shipping attacks etc.
I seem to recollect reading about A-26s being used in that theatre and being specially armed for night shipping attacks etc.
Lownslow
I thought the Boston was single pilot with rear gunner (and bombadier/nav in the nose compartment in the models w/o the extra guns). You're not confusing it with the B25 Mitchell are you?
The Beaufighter didn't have any nose mounted armament as such due to lack of space....4 cannon in the belly and machine guns outboard of the engines...plus bombs, torpedoes, rockets etc.
I thought the Boston was single pilot with rear gunner (and bombadier/nav in the nose compartment in the models w/o the extra guns). You're not confusing it with the B25 Mitchell are you?
The Beaufighter didn't have any nose mounted armament as such due to lack of space....4 cannon in the belly and machine guns outboard of the engines...plus bombs, torpedoes, rockets etc.
CoodaShooda I think you are right that the Boston/Havoc only had one pilot due to the narrow fuselage. According to one article I read, the early versions had 'controls for the rear gunner should the pilot be incapacitated'. Now that must have been interesting 
OK possible candidates are:
Mosquito - unlikely as it would have rotted away by now plus there were not that many of them in the Pacific.
B-25 Mitchell - likely as it had 2 pilot seats plus 0.5 cal Brownings in the nose
Boston / Havoc - guns in the nose but 0.3 cal in both versions, more in the Havoc. Only one pilot seat.
Beaufighter - Only one pilot seat plus 0.3 cal guns in wings, 20mm cannon in the nose
Beaufort - Only one pilot seat, guns in belly pack (I think)
A-26 Invader - guns in nose in most variants, two pilot seats but relatively few (compared to the B-25) saw service in WW2
B-26 Marauder - two pilot seats, nose mounted 0.5 cal guns but four blade props.
I reckon it's a B-25 Mitchell based on the above.
OK possible candidates are:
Mosquito - unlikely as it would have rotted away by now plus there were not that many of them in the Pacific.
B-25 Mitchell - likely as it had 2 pilot seats plus 0.5 cal Brownings in the nose
Boston / Havoc - guns in the nose but 0.3 cal in both versions, more in the Havoc. Only one pilot seat.
Beaufighter - Only one pilot seat plus 0.3 cal guns in wings, 20mm cannon in the nose
Beaufort - Only one pilot seat, guns in belly pack (I think)
A-26 Invader - guns in nose in most variants, two pilot seats but relatively few (compared to the B-25) saw service in WW2
B-26 Marauder - two pilot seats, nose mounted 0.5 cal guns but four blade props.
I reckon it's a B-25 Mitchell based on the above.
LowNSlow
Ain't this fun
The B-25 at Darwin's Aviation Heritage Centre was converted to carry the nose guns but I think it still has a mid-upper turret.
The RAAF converted a number of Bostons to add 4 to 6 .50 cals in a nose mount in addition to the 2x .303's they came with. That's why it gets my vote.
Just hope gramps finally identifies it and puts us out of our misery
Ain't this fun
The B-25 at Darwin's Aviation Heritage Centre was converted to carry the nose guns but I think it still has a mid-upper turret.
The RAAF converted a number of Bostons to add 4 to 6 .50 cals in a nose mount in addition to the 2x .303's they came with. That's why it gets my vote.
Just hope gramps finally identifies it and puts us out of our misery
CoodaShooda certainly helps to pass a boring day at the office!
I forgot that Gramps had said there was no mid-upper turrent which was why I initially went for the Beaufighter.
The Boston only had one pilot seat so we are back to square one
Maybe they aren't 0.5 cal guns after all and the aircraft is a Mitsubishi Betty!!
I forgot that Gramps had said there was no mid-upper turrent which was why I initially went for the Beaufighter.
The Boston only had one pilot seat so we are back to square one
Maybe they aren't 0.5 cal guns after all and the aircraft is a Mitsubishi Betty!!
Maybe the B-25 is back in the frame. From snouting around on Google I have deduced that a lot of B-25's were in service without a mid-upper turret judging by their pictures. However, the pictures were of B-25's restored in to wartime configuration from their civvy identities as sprayers so maybe there weren't enough turrets to go around........
C'mon Gramps give us some more info
C'mon Gramps give us some more info
Last edited by LowNSlow; 16th Mar 2004 at 09:57.
Cooda I've just done what I should have earlier and re-read Gramps' original post. 
He did say crew seats rather than pilot's seats so I reckon it's an A-20 of some description. I'd go for the Havoc rather than the Boston as the Boston had 3 crew seats.
If Gramps has mistaken a Browning 0.5 cal for an Hispano 20mm (highly unlikely), it could still be a Beaufighter
He did say crew seats rather than pilot's seats so I reckon it's an A-20 of some description. I'd go for the Havoc rather than the Boston as the Boston had 3 crew seats.
If Gramps has mistaken a Browning 0.5 cal for an Hispano 20mm (highly unlikely), it could still be a Beaufighter
LNS my friend
Good to see you're not willing to easily give up an enjoyable exchange of disparate opinions.
The only problem with the Beaufighter option is that the cannon were mounted in the belly, behind and below the pilot, not in the nose as such.
Nevertheless, I'm only going on gramps original post, so I could be completely off beam.
I wish he'd come back with an update.
Good to see you're not willing to easily give up an enjoyable exchange of disparate opinions.
The only problem with the Beaufighter option is that the cannon were mounted in the belly, behind and below the pilot, not in the nose as such.
Nevertheless, I'm only going on gramps original post, so I could be completely off beam.
I wish he'd come back with an update.
Cooda damn, I'd forgotten the location of the guns themselves, they were indeed mounted behind the driver's seat. I remember reading an account written by a WOP/AG describing what fun he had trying to change the drums full of 20mm shells as the pilot tried to stay on the tail of a JU-88. Loadsalaffs it was. I think he only lost a couple of fingernails....... and his fingers looked like a blind cobbler's for a few days. 
OK, I give up, a Havoc it is then, unless they weren't Brownings and then it could maybe be a Nakajima G6M Gekko (called Irving by the Allies) or a Ki102 Type 4 Assault (Randy)
OK, I give up, a Havoc it is then, unless they weren't Brownings and then it could maybe be a Nakajima G6M Gekko (called Irving by the Allies) or a Ki102 Type 4 Assault (Randy)