Spitfire - reputation and reality
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The wartime Government undoubtedly put a propaganda spin on the Spitfire, an aeroplane for supermen, and all the rest of it. That is why ATA women pilots were not allowed to fly the fighters for quite some time, as the sight of a 'girl' pilot would have spoiled the macho image that was being projected. After a while the restriction was dropped and the ATA lasses flew Spits along with everything else.
Apparently they were given half an hour with the Pilots Notes on some new American types, and sent off into the wide blue yonder. Lettice Curtis, whose book is excellent, even flew some Douglas aircraft that had been diverted from a French order, and which had the throttles working back-to-front. That must have been interesting.
Apparently they were given half an hour with the Pilots Notes on some new American types, and sent off into the wide blue yonder. Lettice Curtis, whose book is excellent, even flew some Douglas aircraft that had been diverted from a French order, and which had the throttles working back-to-front. That must have been interesting.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
46Driver,
The final model was the Mk47, the last being delivered in March 1949. They saw service in Korea with No 800 Squadron, flying 245 offensive patrols and 115 ground attack sorties from HMS Triumph.
The final model was the Mk47, the last being delivered in March 1949. They saw service in Korea with No 800 Squadron, flying 245 offensive patrols and 115 ground attack sorties from HMS Triumph.
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The name Spitfire is so evocative, it's funny that Mitchell himself hated it. 
DSR10, I believe that it is to be Tom Cruise in the up coming film. It may be called "The Few" and has quite rightly got veterans groups up and roaring. Supposedly the Yanks reckoned that having a Brit character in the lead would be box office suicide. It made my blood boil, first that god awful film about cracking Enigma now this....
And they wonder why the rest of the world despises them!
DSR10, I believe that it is to be Tom Cruise in the up coming film. It may be called "The Few" and has quite rightly got veterans groups up and roaring. Supposedly the Yanks reckoned that having a Brit character in the lead would be box office suicide. It made my blood boil, first that god awful film about cracking Enigma now this....
And they wonder why the rest of the world despises them!
Self Loathing Froggy
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Ralph Cramden :
Yes it was Adolph Galland (at that time only wing commander) but he was talking to Reichsmarschall Hermann Goering.
See : http://www.butler98.freeserve.co.uk/interview.htm
Quite interesting piece of interview, I must say.
Yes it was Adolph Galland (at that time only wing commander) but he was talking to Reichsmarschall Hermann Goering.
See : http://www.butler98.freeserve.co.uk/interview.htm
Quite interesting piece of interview, I must say.
I believe that Mitchell disliked the name primarily because it was also the name of an earlier Supermarine prototype which was rather unseuccessful and had caused him some embarrassement.
G
G
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ORAC, I guess you meant "active" service. The last three employed by the RAF were the PR.19s of the Temperature and Humidity Flight which made over 4,000 meteorological flights before being replaced by Mosquitoes in June 1957.
Over 20k Spitfires and Seafires were built. Anyone know how many flight-capable ones remain today?
Over 20k Spitfires and Seafires were built. Anyone know how many flight-capable ones remain today?
Gnome de PPRuNe
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The number "airworthy" hovers somewhere around the 50 mark - though some of these may be in store (the Warbirds of Great Britain aircraft for example - I think that they have a Mk XVIII and a IX which haven't flown since the early 90s, but pretty much airworthy and are stored at North Weald? Anyone know more?).
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Treadigraph, I can defintely confirm that as of about 3 years ago when I saw the 'flying legends' airshow at Duxford celebrating the 60th anniversary of the Battle of Britain they had 23 spits and 9 hurricanes in the air. I remember the commentator saying that this represented every flying hurricane and all but a small handful of spits.
Must say, the sight of 7 Vics of Spits brought a lump to my throat.
Ravs
Must say, the sight of 7 Vics of Spits brought a lump to my throat.
Ravs
Gnome de PPRuNe
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I was there too - so far as I recall there were 21 airworthy Spits (20 flew the day I was there as one of the BoB pilots was sick) which was most of the UK ones plus a couple of European interlopers, plus five or six Hurricanes - two from the BoB, one from TFC, one from Shuttleworth, one from RAC and one from Hurricane Restorations. Great line up!
Might be an interesting exercise to figure out exactly how many of each are airworthy at the moment... if I get some time tomorrow...
Treadders
Might be an interesting exercise to figure out exactly how many of each are airworthy at the moment... if I get some time tomorrow...
Treadders
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I'm re-reading 'Sigh for a Merlin' by Alex Henshaw for about the 5th time. Very good book.
I'll have to get my hands on the Jeffrey Quill book as well it seems. 'Flight of the Mew Gull' is next on my reading list if I can get hold of a copy.
The sight and sound of the Spitfire in Shuttleworth's twilight flying displays is guaranteed to raise the hairs on the back of everyone's neck. Such poetry. It had my Dutch father-in-law in raptures. He remembered them flying over Holland during and after the war.
DeepC
I'll have to get my hands on the Jeffrey Quill book as well it seems. 'Flight of the Mew Gull' is next on my reading list if I can get hold of a copy.
The sight and sound of the Spitfire in Shuttleworth's twilight flying displays is guaranteed to raise the hairs on the back of everyone's neck. Such poetry. It had my Dutch father-in-law in raptures. He remembered them flying over Holland during and after the war.
DeepC
Gnome de PPRuNe
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Did a quick check this morning - total number of Spits airworthy in appears to be 50 including several that are currently not flying but have been in recent years...
For the record:
Mk I - 1
Mk II - 1
Mk V - 5
Mk VIII - 5 (incl Tr8)
Mk IX - 16 (incl Tr9)
Mk XI - 1
Mk XIV - 6
Mk XVI - 8
Mk XVIII - 3
Mk XIX - 4
(Think me mental arithmatic is correct!)
No Seafires. As yet...!
Hurricanes = 11: most recent flier is TFC's Mk IV which has flown but was grounded at Legends with gear retraction pronblems. Imagine it is flying again by now...
For the record:
Mk I - 1
Mk II - 1
Mk V - 5
Mk VIII - 5 (incl Tr8)
Mk IX - 16 (incl Tr9)
Mk XI - 1
Mk XIV - 6
Mk XVI - 8
Mk XVIII - 3
Mk XIX - 4
(Think me mental arithmatic is correct!)
No Seafires. As yet...!
Hurricanes = 11: most recent flier is TFC's Mk IV which has flown but was grounded at Legends with gear retraction pronblems. Imagine it is flying again by now...
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
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Total Spitfire production was around 22,500 aircraft, it was also the only allied fighter aircraft that was in production before the war started and still in production afterwards.
Let's face it, there are two aircraft that everyone stops and gawps at during a display, the Spit and the Harrier.
Let's face it, there are two aircraft that everyone stops and gawps at during a display, the Spit and the Harrier.
Look out for upcoming film where US Pilot [Brad Pitt] flying the Spit. wins the Battle of Britain to save the UK...
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Just to say grateful thanks all the PPruners who have provided their comments on this topic! They have been a fascinating read and have provided me with lots of leads. In some cases, my own thoughts have been confirmed, but there have been some very original ideas. I'll let you know how this project pans out!
Having only recently been introduced to this astonishing site, I am now obsessed! Thanks to all who have contributed; this has been my first thread and I have been made to feel very welcome
DragonRapide
Having only recently been introduced to this astonishing site, I am now obsessed! Thanks to all who have contributed; this has been my first thread and I have been made to feel very welcome
DragonRapide
Just to throw in a few more points that have not yet been raised.
During WWII, Farnborough evaluated the high Mach number characteristics of all of the allied fighters that were available to them to determine the maximum Mach number at which each type was controllable. The Spitfire had by far the highest limiting Mach number, just over 0.9. Captain Eric Brown is my source for this data.
The Spitfire has some of the most benign stalling characteristics, both power on and off and flaps up and down, of any of the WWII fighters. It also has very low stalling speeds, giving low threshold speeds (75 - 80 mph for a Mk V) and controls that are effective almost down to taxy speed.
At mid c.g. positions the elevator control forces are very light such that looping aerobatics can be flown comfortably with one hand in comparison with the Mustang and Bf109, amongst others, which are very heavy such that 2 hands are required for prolonged high g manoeuvring. These light forces, combined with the excellent stall characteristics, make it delightful for looping manoeuvres which may be entered at lower speeds than in most other fighters of the same vintage. However, there is a down side to this in that at aft c.g. the Spitfire becomes manoeuvre unstable and at extreme aft c.g. longitudinally statically unstable. Unpleasant, but not unflyable.
In contrast, the aileron forces are high which results in poor control harmony (ideally, the ailerons should feel lighter than the elevators). The actual roll performance is similar to the BF109, Mustang etc, but much poorer than some others such as the P-40. The clipped wing improves the roll performance significantly (to try to match the FW190) and reduces the aileron forces also, which I feel makes it a more pleasant aircraft to fly even if the aesthetic appearance is reduced!
Considering the changes from the MkI to the Mark 24, was any other WWII fighter developed with the weight and power increase of the Spitfire? I cannot think of one. Surely this development potential is the mark of a great design.
Overall, there were higher performance fighters during WWII and ones which I feel have better overall flying qualities. In many areas there were "better" fighters, however you may wish to categorise "better". So saying, none has the charisma of the Spitfire. It has that certain "Je ne sais quoi", an indefinable quality. Many great aircraft have never entered the general public's consciousness as they were not in the right place at the right time - the Spitfire was. Whatever the reality of the Battle of Britain, it is the public's perception over the last 60 years that has put the Spitfire where it quite rightly belongs.
When I first learnt to fly, I always said "One day I will fly a Spitfire", not a Mustang, Corsair, Bf109 or any thing else- a Spitfire. Like the Spitfire, one day I was in the right place at the right time. My eternal thanks to R J Mitchell, Jeffrey Quill, Stanley Hooker and everyone else who contributed to this outstanding machine.
During WWII, Farnborough evaluated the high Mach number characteristics of all of the allied fighters that were available to them to determine the maximum Mach number at which each type was controllable. The Spitfire had by far the highest limiting Mach number, just over 0.9. Captain Eric Brown is my source for this data.
The Spitfire has some of the most benign stalling characteristics, both power on and off and flaps up and down, of any of the WWII fighters. It also has very low stalling speeds, giving low threshold speeds (75 - 80 mph for a Mk V) and controls that are effective almost down to taxy speed.
At mid c.g. positions the elevator control forces are very light such that looping aerobatics can be flown comfortably with one hand in comparison with the Mustang and Bf109, amongst others, which are very heavy such that 2 hands are required for prolonged high g manoeuvring. These light forces, combined with the excellent stall characteristics, make it delightful for looping manoeuvres which may be entered at lower speeds than in most other fighters of the same vintage. However, there is a down side to this in that at aft c.g. the Spitfire becomes manoeuvre unstable and at extreme aft c.g. longitudinally statically unstable. Unpleasant, but not unflyable.
In contrast, the aileron forces are high which results in poor control harmony (ideally, the ailerons should feel lighter than the elevators). The actual roll performance is similar to the BF109, Mustang etc, but much poorer than some others such as the P-40. The clipped wing improves the roll performance significantly (to try to match the FW190) and reduces the aileron forces also, which I feel makes it a more pleasant aircraft to fly even if the aesthetic appearance is reduced!
Considering the changes from the MkI to the Mark 24, was any other WWII fighter developed with the weight and power increase of the Spitfire? I cannot think of one. Surely this development potential is the mark of a great design.
Overall, there were higher performance fighters during WWII and ones which I feel have better overall flying qualities. In many areas there were "better" fighters, however you may wish to categorise "better". So saying, none has the charisma of the Spitfire. It has that certain "Je ne sais quoi", an indefinable quality. Many great aircraft have never entered the general public's consciousness as they were not in the right place at the right time - the Spitfire was. Whatever the reality of the Battle of Britain, it is the public's perception over the last 60 years that has put the Spitfire where it quite rightly belongs.
When I first learnt to fly, I always said "One day I will fly a Spitfire", not a Mustang, Corsair, Bf109 or any thing else- a Spitfire. Like the Spitfire, one day I was in the right place at the right time. My eternal thanks to R J Mitchell, Jeffrey Quill, Stanley Hooker and everyone else who contributed to this outstanding machine.
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Re Spitfire cost
It was a very popular fund raising idea to sponsor a Spitfire (usually done on a town/factory basis but some by individuals). For this purpose the price was set at £10,000, but a Mk 5 actually cost just over £12,000, roughly equally split between airframe and engine. Presumably with later models (ie Griffon engine and various superchargers being added) the engine took a higher proportion of a larger cost
It was a very popular fund raising idea to sponsor a Spitfire (usually done on a town/factory basis but some by individuals). For this purpose the price was set at £10,000, but a Mk 5 actually cost just over £12,000, roughly equally split between airframe and engine. Presumably with later models (ie Griffon engine and various superchargers being added) the engine took a higher proportion of a larger cost
Mostly Harmless
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Seen here in Australia as a bit of a lifesaver. Stopped the japs at Darwin. You can see a Spitfire here, you can't see a Hurricane.
About 13 years ago I was following two bloated locals with 5 cameras and a Hawaiin shirt each at an airshow at Edward AFB California. Walking along the static display they'd stop at each warbird and one would say "What's this one Billy-Bob?" (This is for real by the way)...
"Oh, thats a P-51D-LA blah blah blah, built at blah blah in 1944, served with the blah blah blah, now owned by blah blah of Wisconsin." Then they took two pictures each with each of their 5 cameras. They did the same with a P-40 & a B-25, then they came to a Spitfire MK.22.
"What's this one Billy-Bob?" his mate asked again.
"Er, I dunno. I think it's a Hurricane..."
About 13 years ago I was following two bloated locals with 5 cameras and a Hawaiin shirt each at an airshow at Edward AFB California. Walking along the static display they'd stop at each warbird and one would say "What's this one Billy-Bob?" (This is for real by the way)...
"Oh, thats a P-51D-LA blah blah blah, built at blah blah in 1944, served with the blah blah blah, now owned by blah blah of Wisconsin." Then they took two pictures each with each of their 5 cameras. They did the same with a P-40 & a B-25, then they came to a Spitfire MK.22.
"What's this one Billy-Bob?" his mate asked again.
"Er, I dunno. I think it's a Hurricane..."
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Twelve thousand quid!!! Thirty thousand Aussie bucks!!!
I'll have three please!
For comparison purposes, anyone know what the average wage was in the UK, 1940 to 1945?
Think I read some years ago that the final 1945 cost of the Ford or Willeys jeep was US$62.00.
Woomera
I'll have three please!
For comparison purposes, anyone know what the average wage was in the UK, 1940 to 1945?
Think I read some years ago that the final 1945 cost of the Ford or Willeys jeep was US$62.00.
Woomera