Making the air...err...clearer?
 

I spoke to a QF skipper, who just recently reported a DJ crew for landing at Tulla with approx 420mtrs visibility. He was second in behind him & was told by the tower that it was between 500-800mtrs. I won't bother with repeating the conversation, but a DJ crew had the last laugh over the air with him. ;)

This made me wonder if there is a set minimum distance for visibility or if it's at the pilots discretion? I know that airports don't really "close" like they used to for weather, due to, amongst other things, liability, but do they have any CASA regs that prohibit landings under a set distance? :confused:

And how exactly did the QF skipper decide on what vis the VB crew experienced on their approach..?

Chuck.

Obviously the QANTAS bloke has not heard of the phrase - "people in glass houses...."

What business is it of the QF skipper to dob in the DJ crew?

The determination of runway visibility on landing is up to the crew - they are authorised met observers for that purpose.

I assume it wasn't fog, and rain can move through giving variable visibility.

Did the QF bloke land by the way?

Bad enough officious pilots dobbing you in, what about aviations most over qualified, F/As.

A couple of years ago, Melbourne weather about the minima, and all attempted arrivals diverted, except for two Ansett A320s.

Incensed Flight Attendants accused the A320 crews of making unauthorised use of the aircrafts autoland function( the system was not approved for use in Australia).

Ansett F/A Association approached the Flight Department. The reply given was that A320s had "big windows" which gave Airbus crews an advantage in low viz ops.

The Flight Attendants were happy with this response!

Buster, how were the VB crew dobbed in? Over the radio or by phone at flight completion?

Hang on, we are all way out of line here. We should be realising that Qantas invented aviation and as a result, they have the right to tell people how to fly aeroplanes.

Not withstanding this, they went over Boeing's head in promulgating non Boeing approved procedures when they ran QF1 off the runway in Bangkok.

What do you expect from a pack of w@nkers who's press to talk button is between their legs?

To answer your question, Buster - "Yes", there are minimum visibility and cloud base minimums set for each approach.
These minima (the plural of minimum) vary from airport to airport and depend upon the type of radio aid(s) used for the approach, the elevation and surrounding local terrain, the type of approach and runway lighting, and the qualifications of the crew conducting the approach - amongst other things.
Minima at one end of a runway may be different to that at the other end.

In some countries, approaches are permitted to be made under zero visibility conditions - but not in Oz as yet (because of the standard of the pilots!! :D :D ....that was tongue-in-cheek, by the way, for those who suffer from a sense of humour failure!).

As Chimbu Chuck pointed out in the first response to your thread opener, "And how exactly did the QF skipper decide on what vis the VB crew experienced on their approach..?
Even in fog conditions, minima fluctuate (due to convection, wind...no matter how light...isobaric, and mechanical disturbances), and so although one pilot may report a particular set of values encountered on his approach visibility and cloud base may have changed considerably for an aircraft 3-5 miles behind.

The QANTAS "skipper" has displayed his obvious LACK of knowledge - not to mention UNPROFESSIONALISM - in making such STUPID statements, imho!

The ONLY other person who would have been capable of making the assessment of the minima encountered by the DJ PF (pilot flying), was the other pilot in the cockpit with him at that time!

A few years ago one of Ansetts most infamous Captains "stole";) a landing in fog at Melborne. The airport had been socked in for an hour before and didn't open until mid-morning the next day. He claimed that the vis increased to 800m for a few seconds just as he arrived at the minima. Now thats a bit of a co-incidence:rolleyes:

I was on the frequency when the Sky God asked for the DJ flight number that had just landed in the foggy conditions. At that stage the SG was holding at least 20nm from ML. At the time we both laughed at the arrogant attitude of the QF bloke. As if HE could determine what the vis was at the DA for that particular approach at that particular time. Thats why the decision to land is left to the Captain of the aircraft and not QF flight operations. By the way the fog was very patchy, Vis fluctuated from about 400m out to 1000m+ along the length of the RWYs. Sounds like the DJ got lucky!

Arrogance unlimited
 

Isn't it amazing the attitude that gets instilled in some staff by any given company's management.

Not to say that QF management teaches its pilots to hawkishly watch other crews flying techniques and decisions and criticise accordingly, but when you repeatedly tell some people (ie - not all people, just the minority) that they are "the best of the best" for a considerable period of time they actually start believing it.

The entire way Qantas runs its business needs to be changed. Financially the airline is a powerhouse. In terms of staff morale and customer service at best Qantas is tolerated. At worst it is laughed at. Loudly.

Allegedly. :mad:

I say let Qantas continue with their arrogance. it only serves to p$ss everyone off and gives weight to more people wanting to fly with better airlines.

In Qantas, and it's pilots view, they are the best airline in the world. An attitude that will cause them to come very unstuck in the future.

What they don't realise is that people only fly QF because they have to.

Taxiing at CBR last week on the way to MLB, the QF Captain over-rode the cabin crew's safety instructions to inform the passengers that a Virgin Blue plane had got in front of us and we would therefore be delayed a few minutes. Cabin crew were delivering the safety instructions verbally as there was some sort of problem with the pre-recorded message. The height of arrogance (like who the hell are DJ to jump the queue!!!) and rudeness, I thought. So the plane was going to be delayed a few minutes getting into MLB - big deal. Who cares. Captain obviously though it was more important than passengers being told how to exit the plane in the case of an emergency.

:D

Wasn't there when it happened (as it appears that the majority of contributors to this thread weren't) but it is ONE bloke out of 2200+ pilots who are currently employed as aircrew for Qantas Airways Ltd.

But you're right you know. The WHOLE airline must be cactus. ALL QF pilots think they are God's gift to aviation. Heaven forbid I don't know why we aren't having a prang every day with that sort of attitude. :rolleyes:

If we are going to start picking on each others transmissions and questions, then it is going to get real messy in a hurry. Here are a couple for you. Landed in MEL after flying all nighit from HKG. Boss stuck it on the 1000' markers in what would have appeared as a 'solid' landing but was in reality quite a smooth one. VB bloke at the holding point comes up with 'Doh, that must've hurt'.

Second instance. VB taxiing in at SYD the day after the MEL comment . Tower reminds them that they've left strobes on long after exiting the runway. Bloke petulantly asks if tower would like to 'do checklist for him too'.

The point is, both examples were 'unprofessional' and displayed an ignorance of the world around them and an arrogance that I found breathtaking (just as breath taking as one of ours 'dobbing' in someone esle from 20 nm away if that is the way it happened). Did I immediately leap onto PPRUNE and lambast ALL DJ crews as thinking highly of themselves and thinking that they are the best pilots known to man kind. No I didn't and the reason why is that I acknowledge and accept that no airline is perfect and we all have our fair share of wallies that we share the flight deck with.

The arrogance and snide tone from most contributors on this particular thread is the EXACT attitude that they claim ALL QF drivers have. Arrogance, holier than thou, ignorance, willing to 'jump' on percieved transgressions and denigrate perpertrator. And someone mentioned 'people in glass houses.........'

Keep patting yourselves on the back about this one boys and keep telling yourselves whatever it is you want to believe about Qantas crews. Most of us know that we're no better or worse than most other 'first world' carriers from around the world- we just keep striving to be better. That you guys would choose to paint an entire airline on the basis of the occaisional stupid radio comment shows what small minded people pilots can still be- just as small minded as the bloke who was the reason behind this thread to start off with.

Happy New Year. I look forward to sharing the sky in 2003 with perfect pilots like the ones that grace this thread. :rolleyes:

..whatever happened to that lovely attitude of 20-30 years ago where we all looked after each other ? .... if you saw or heard a guy make a mistake of any significance (didn't matter what colour tailfeathers), he was prompted in a nice, discreet manner ... if an impending screw up was obviously on the cards, you did likewise .... and the same applied to ATC interactions.

Has it really got to the stage where everyone is so full of self importance that we forget the main aim of the game ? .. to get to the overnight fun in one piece and without embarrassment ?

Keg

This type of behaviour is alarmingly regular in your airline.

Was or would the Captain be chastised by Management for an obvious breach of airmanship?

If nothing done by management or behaviour like this not discouraged by the pilot group, fair to assume this to be your culture.

On Virgin Blue. After having a few drinks at the Hamo recently, have concluded their cultural evolution will be fascinating.

Was impressed with the co-ordination of one young skipper. He could tell us about himself, chew gum and drink beer all at the same time! Super cool.

I guess I'd be as bitter, envious and frustrated as frank Borman if I'd had the ten or so employment rejection letters from the big Q that he's obviously had.

So was the QF captain short haul or long haul? Having come across from Ansett to Qantas short haul, I find the cultures to be almost the same. Sure there may be one or two who show arrogance, but what airline doesn't have them?

Would it matter EPIRB? Far easier for the feeble minded to tar everyone with the same brush.

Thats real comical Ozzy considering I've only applied with QF once and once only and yes, I got the reapply in 12 months letter after having passed all the selection criteria, so yes I'm honest about my past QF aspirations.

However, I now have the offer of joining an overseas airline this March, so my silly little freind, no bitterness here, though, I like how your total lack of knowledge about someones background leads you to judge their attitude.

Oh, and by the way, I not only have airline experience already gained here, but safety experience gained in safety investigations.

Just because someone loathes another airline, does not mean they are bitter and twisted, though like I said, I like how you join the flock and use the age old boring term. Can't you think for yourself?

Gee Frank, you sound really bitter and twisted about Qantas. It would appear that you've taken your rejection pretty badly.

Hey Frank, why didn't you reapply to Qantas after twelve months?

Must have touched a raw nerve with frank.

To define a group of individuals in its entirety based upon the actions or attitudes of a small minority defies logic and commonsense. Think about what that sort of mentality leads to, Nazi Germany springs to mind.

Maybe that's it, frank Borman, any relation to Martin?

Gnadenburg, to be honest, who knows? It isn't unknown for QF guys to take each other on over percieved poor form on the airways. Would management even know? As for the 'alarmingly regular' bit, I'd say that on average I hear a QF tailed drive make a prat of themselves on the radio about the same ratio as other carriers in Australian Airspace. The difference here is that with 100 or so mainline jets, you are just more likely to hear it from a QF driver.

Does VB deal with their blokes? (I only gave two examples but I have a half dozen or so more but I'm not big into 'point scoring' in that way) Have they? That wasn't the crux of my point.

Frank, I don't particularly like it when people's come back to QF bashing is the 'did you get knocked back 10 times' tag although I have been known to ask the question without the 'ten times' bit though! It aids with understanding the contributors context. That you make you comments about QF with a background in 'safety investigations' I find just flabbergasting. Such close mindedness and confirmation bias I find dissappointing in someone who already has airline experience and is about to start with a new one.

Honestly, one bloke may have been a prat on the radio and here we are getting stuck into each other as to who is more professional and has or hasn't got into QF. Talk about a storm in a tiny tea cup. Amazing how 'precious' we can all be at times though. Good to see that we're all focussing on the big picture.

I can only agree with you Keg. Just goes to show what a close knit and supportive group pilots aren't. No wonder the GA drivers get continually screwed by the dodgy opertors, no solidarity..."I'll do it for less than him plus I'm better"

It is poor form for DJ guys to make smart a.rse comments about someone elses landing as it is equally poor form for the QF guy to "dob" in the DJ guy.

We all have a little dig every now and then about something - but it is one thing to have a joke with your offsider on the flight deck and quite another to push the PTT and transmit it to the world.

Having said that you occasionally get carried away with the moment and push the button - it however doesn't make it right.

If a DJ guy has the specifics of a transgression reported to head office - it is investigated - it is not a witch hunt - but a quiet question will be asked to see if there is any basis to the report - you would be surprised at how many vexatious reports are received - the majority made with no basis in fact - just people trying to s.hit on other people.

Sad really....

Strewth!
 

This one got a few hits!!!:eek:

Gnadenburg. Didn't get the specifics of the exact nature of the reporting, but I believe it was on the ground, not over the air. Having said that, he strikes me as the kind of guy every organisation ends up with, due to the law of averages.

Kaptin. Thanks for answering my question. My company frequently uses autoland on our aircraft (os), if the facilities are in place at Australian airports, is there any restriction in our use of the autoland equipment?

EPIRB. Shorthaul. Definately, shorthaul.

As an airline employee for quite some time now (on the ground), I have seen a slow erosion of respect for "the other carrier". Obviously, I can't speak for the pilot body, but sadly, we were all played for fools by bean counters and aggressive little Hitlers in our respective HO's. Profits, it seemed, could only come from burying the other guy.

It's not hard to determine when this started, but is it at all possible to return to the days of mutual respect, spares pooling, friendly banter etc?:(

Buster, you left out price fixing in your last paragraph ;) De-regulation and an obsession with competition policy killed the warm and fuzzies. I believe mutual respect and friendly banter is down to the individuals involved. From what appears on these forums every day I don't like the chances of it making a comeback.

Question for the peanut gallery. What would the QF's captain have to gain by "reporting" the DJ A/C. :confused:
Friendly Banter every now and then is healthy, eg someone landing long, you are oblidged to say - roll through approved. Play nicely boys, we are all pilots. Happy flying
Drshmoo:p

Honestly guys, I am doing fine with the QF rejection. I went home and swung the cat for about 15 minutes then realised there are other airlines out there. So I can assure you Ozzy, it's ok, but thanks for your judgement.

The point I wanted to make is don't pidgeon hole someone for something that they don't fit. Just because someone loathes an airline, they aren't bitter and twisted, but as I feel I need no more justifying, I'll leave it at that.

Keg, go and be flabbergasted and I take your point, but it was made in the context to Ozzy that people have no need to be bitter and twisted if they get a knock back especially if they are like me and have other qualifications, so sorry if that came across as a confirmation bias, it was not meant in that way.

Personally in the past I have used a knockback from an airline as impetus to work harder and improve myself for the next interview. Can't see how one can be bitter and twisted for that.

"Got a few hits"......most of them along the lines of "My d1ck's bigger than your's." :rolleyes:
Still who am I to judge..."Let him without sin cast the first stone", and that "him" sure as hell ain't me.

However, the action of this ONE QANTAS pilot - in addition to being unprofessional - has now added more fuel to the fire, for those who see QF pilots as self-appointed "Sky Gods" (to quote an earlier contributor).

Could it be, that as the QF captain who reported the DJ guy was "Shorthaul. Definately, shorthaul." (to quote Buster), he is still carrying baggage from 14 years ago? His type were divisive in Australian aviation then, and it appears STILL are today.

In answer to your last question, wrt autoland, Buster, the main restrictions on autoland-capable aircraft are the accuracy and reliability of the ground equipment (localiser and glide slope integrity), and a requirement for the aircraft to have demonstrated its proficiency to make a successful autoland within the last (usually) one month. There are also decreased x-wind and tailwind limitations ie. the maximum wind values are less than normal.
There is crew training involved, but as you can imagine, the emphasis is on monitoring the autopilot and autothrottle. Passive failure(s), or a sudden dynamic failure near to the ground requiring immediate manual intervention.
As I said earlier, autolands allow (qualified) crew to make an approach and landing under zero visibility conditions (Cat 3C) at certain approved airports.

What's wrong with this thread?

Very bad professional manners and the individual lambasted on pprune.

Some QF fellows felt that the attack on them rather than their culture. Or maybe they just don't like critisism.

Frank, sometimes you can be lucky to miss out on an airline, though this not realised until years later. There are a significant number of pilots who missed out on their dream job at Ansett in the mid 90s. Some I know are Captains in Emirates, Dragon, Virgin Blue and F/Os in QF.

I have found that once in a career airline you rest on your laurels, where as a bloke still in the open market strives for opportunities. Most make it in the end, I must add being blackbanned does not help from what i have witnessed recently!

Keg

Out of interest, after arriving from HKG and sticking it on the markers, how did you arrive at the conclusion that it was a DJ crew that made that unwelcome transmission?

Were they the only A/C who witnessed your arrival?
Was the tower closed?
Were there no amatuer clowns with handhelds that morning?
Or did you just assume it was them..... ?

Any of the several professional groups that have had recent EBA dealings with QF will wholeheartedly agree with that statement:eek: How long until safety is effected as a result of bully-boy tactics?

Gidday Keg. I spend a lot of time in the airspace between ML/SY/BN as you know. I'm sorry to say that there are a lot of your colleagues "misbehaving" on the radio.

We just have a good laugh in the flight deck when we hear it. ATC must grit their teeth though :D

Quick question from the peanut gallery: Why do the QF 767's taxi with ALL their taxi/landing lights on at night? It makes it extremely difficult for us mere mortals to do our job if we are heading in the opposite direction.

It seems to be a unique set of SOP's as no other operator of this type into Oz seems to do it.

Happy new year :)

QF 767's dont taxi with landing lights on, just taxi lights.

clakajak

Perhaps Keg heard the DJ crew read back a clearance and recognised the voice to be the same as the one that made the comment.........not too hard to do!:)

Good friend of mine who works for ATC @ BNE, refers to the QF domestic apron as "The Whine Rack!" - Looks like ATC are forming their own picture of QF.

Reading this post I've been wondering - If a QF Capt. and FO run into or pass a DJ Capt and FO at work or in the carpark/ hotel (whatever) do they say "G'day" or just ignore eachother? What about in the days of Ansett?

Where I work (GA) we are all good mates with the oppositions pilots. United in having a whinge about our bosses from time to time and united in having beer.

Am I just living in a rare set of circumstances? Do things change when you get into an airline?

:(

RaTa, got it in one. Pretty easy when the next comment after his 'doh' was 'Virgin XXX, line up' and when the acknowledgment came back from the VB a/c the voices were identical to the 'doh' maker. Claka, I've been on PPRUNE for a while now. Those regulars here would know that whilst I tend to wear my heart on my sleeve when it comes to my company, I'm not one to make up a story or post info about an occurence unless I'm pretty confident about the accuracy of it.

Hugh, perhaps you're lack of relative speed also means that you're in the airspace where this happens a lot longer than I am ;) :D. Seriously though, point taken.

Yes it happens (and not just 767 drivers and something I've never denied), yes I've cringed when the boss has asked me to make what I would consider to be a 'dumb' request/ comment but again I'd say that the proportions are probably equal as far as number of aircraft in the air from each company are concerned. I will grant that I'm one of the trees in the forest and so the view may be a little different from where I am however I don't tar any airline just because of the half dozen or so prats who frequent the airways on a continual basis.

Hat, gotta say that I love talking to crews from different airlines. Anything that I can learn about the way they operate could be useful to me at some stage in the future. I'm not too humble to admit that the majority of lessons in aviation have equal application across the range of carriers and I never know when I can pick up some gen from the 'other side'. But thats just me. Can't say that I've ever come across Virgin drivers face to face though. I certainly won't judge them by the comments of two of their drivers though!

Anyway, who am I to stand in the middle of a QF bashing thread. Have at it lads. It's been a while. Was getting kind of boring with people bashing VB and Gnadenburg always leaping to their defence! ;) :D

Jarse, forgot the landing lights bit. SOP for us is nose gear taxi light and runway turn off lights. Should be a total of three all up. The 200s and GE 300s have seperate nose wheel taxi and take off lights, the Rollers have a 'combined' nose light.

I try and remember that your height is right at our light level. ;)Even when I've asked the boss to turn them off to avoid blinding whoever I very occaisionally get some bloke who believes that we're compromising safety by not having ourselves lit up like a Christmas tree. Funnily enough, my standard response of 'I don't know how safe it'll be when he taxis into us because he can't see a damn thing' doesn't normally engender a change of heart from them. :D

Catch you round.

John Tullarmarine I agree whole heartedly. This entire shambles (jaundiced sledging) is descending into farcical terms. Nowhere else in the world have I seen/heard such derision and unprofessionalism from so called "professionals". We here in DJ have our percentage of morons, absolutely no argument there. However generally I think they are very few and far between from what I have witnessed. I am equally sure the majority of QF lads are similar. However..... there does appear to be an "element" in QF that are nothing less than childish with some of the ridiculous banter over the radio. The antagonism of ATC by some is a bl@@dy disgrace to say the least. I have cringed on many ocassions at some of the head wrecking. mind numbing vacuous diatribe released from the mouths of some in this country. Yes I know they (ATC) don't always get right, either do I! A little bit of give and take goes a long way gentlemen.

Everywhere else in the world pilot's just try and get on. Why is it so difficult to do the same here? Those without the experience of flying abroad have little concept of just how stupid we are down here at times. It really is as simple as that. I for one will not descend into this pathetic paradigm of neanderthal thinking. If a QF crew want the wind and ride I'll give it to them accurately. If they are in a hurry and it wont affect my schedule adversely, I will offer them a speed reduction (mine) etc. I want to get away on time and get in on time, just as QF do. I don't engage in any child like antics. I have kids to do that!

Why don't we all try something different when we go to work next. As soon as we experience something that really pi$$es us off, take a deep breath and let it ride. You will get a good deal of satisfaction from your restraint, not to mention a whole lot more respect from your peers! If keeping it in doesn't do it for you, go the the gym and punch the cr@p out of a punching bag. Just please let the rest of us get on with our job as PROFESSIONALS!

Lets be honest, there are prats everywhere including QANTAS, Virgin Blue and the rest. What annoys me from first hand experience (and this I am sure is not just QANTAS) is the absolute immaturity, lack of common courtesy and straight out rudeness displayed by some QF skippers on the flight deck.

In many cases absolutely unbelievable. They can behave like little 5 year old johnny down the road and chuck a tantrum over absolutely nothing. A complete disgrace.

:o

Keg you are terribly confused.

Leaping to the defence of Virgin Blue, are you kidding.

Only once, when QF pilots having a dig at their wages. I pointed out there was an active B Scale at QF which had put pressure on Ansett wages. What choice does a QF S/O have in accepting 737 B Scale? About as much a choice as a young bloke out of GA when he gets his first 737 job at Virgin.

Short memories but QF pilots did not see the point.

And the sanctimonious private message I received from you- " I assume you are a Virgin pilot and real proud of your airline.....blah blah....but we only want your cost base to be up around ours blah blah....so no pressure on our wages".

No, I am not and nor do I have aspirations to fly for Virgin Blue( never say never but expat life all rosey at the moment ).

My beef with QF on the table, justified and corroborated and from my vantage point of a former airline pilot with Ansett.

Professional bad manners such as backchat, dobbing and woeful and disruptive speed management by the 767 group.

I could never be accused of not having a good dig at Virgin.

I must add that Captain Steve Waugh's innings today one of the greatest I have seen. Never lost faith in you Tugga.

Airmanship and professional courtesy.....
 

Thanks for the response Keg.

The total number of lights is usually around 5 (wings and nosewheel). They are very effective, if you know what I mean :D

These guys don't even switch them off at the holding point. And there can be other A/C on the opposite hold point.

Airmanship and professional courtesy.....

I've even had to politely ask them to switch them off when making an approach to the runway they are holding for, only to get compliance and a flippant remark.....

Airmanship and professional courtesy......

Happy newyear!http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk.../rock_band.gifhttp://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/rocker.gif