YSSY single runway
For much of yesterday, 16/12/2023, Sydney was on single runway ops because of staff shortages.
Now, while this is just outragous, it was also...well...fine. Minimal delays, short taxis, less fuel burn/emmisions. While of course the bussiest airport in the country should be resourced to use all it's runways, it should also be run as efficiently as possible. Yesterday showed that sensible, tactical runway use based on demand, rather than politically mandated splitting, including one of the longest taxis in the world, is hugely preferable. It was an Emporers New Clothes moment, and it would be a shame if lessons weren't learnt. |
Any idea what the average ground delay was ?
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Originally Posted by Wizofoz
(Post 11557893)
For much of yesterday, 16/12/2023, Sydney was on single runway ops because of staff shortages.
Now, while this is just outragous, it was also...well...fine. Minimal delays, short taxis, less fuel burn/emmisions. While of course the bussiest airport in the country should be resourced to use all it's runways, it should also be run as efficiently as possible. Yesterday showed that sensible, tactical runway use based on demand, rather than politically mandated splitting, including one of the longest taxis in the world, is hugely preferable. It was an Emporers New Clothes moment, and it would be a shame if lessons weren't learnt. |
25 mins airborne
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Originally Posted by Wizofoz
(Post 11557893)
For much of yesterday, 16/12/2023, Sydney was on single runway ops because of staff shortages.
Now, while this is just outragous, it was also...well...fine. Minimal delays, short taxis, less fuel burn/emmisions. While of course the bussiest airport in the country should be resourced to use all it's runways, it should also be run as efficiently as possible. Yesterday showed that sensible, tactical runway use based on demand, rather than politically mandated splitting, including one of the longest taxis in the world, is hugely preferable. It was an Emporers New Clothes moment, and it would be a shame if lessons weren't learnt. |
Originally Posted by Wizofoz
(Post 11557893)
.
Minimal delays, short taxis, less fuel burn/emmisions. . |
SYD (and MEL) ATC would do well to send a team over to LHR/FRA/MUC to learn a bit. They make mountains out of mole hills and could be a lot more efficient.
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Originally Posted by unobtanium
(Post 11557922)
longest taxi's in the world? Get out of you're little bubble it's not even close
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Originally Posted by ShandywithSugar
(Post 11557935)
25 mins airborne
Originally Posted by shortshortz
(Post 11557940)
So you think we should reduce Airservice staff numbers to be run Sydney more efficiently? yeah ok
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Originally Posted by T54A
(Post 11557960)
SYD (and MEL) ATC would do well to send a team over to LHR/FRA/MUC to learn a bit. They make mountains out of mole hills and could be a lot more efficient.
Seriously, the rosters are probably that tight that staff would be struggling to get their allocated holidays. NATS were in Sydney back 10 years ago and most (all) of their recommendations were not acted upon. After the introduction of the 3rd parallel runway, pre-LTOP report and I think it was from the Old Tower, we used to do 07 only on Saturday afternoons, weather permitting. Brought the crowds back. |
Originally Posted by T54A
(Post 11557960)
SYD (and MEL) ATC would do well to send a team over to LHR/FRA/MUC to learn a bit. They make mountains out of mole hills and could be a lot more efficient.
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Originally Posted by Wizofoz
(Post 11557988)
I said one of the longest.
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Originally Posted by das Uber Soldat
(Post 11558159)
Citation needed. Because I can't think of an airport in SE asia where I've operated that didn't have a taxi route longer.
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It was probably ‘fine’ because it was operated at a lower capacity with flights cancelled to fit into the movement quota.
If SYD ran the normal number of movements on 1 runway it would be at gridlock. |
Originally Posted by neville_nobody
(Post 11558318)
It was probably ‘fine’ because it was operated at a lower capacity with flights cancelled to fit into the movement quota.
If SYD ran the normal number of movements on 1 runway it would be at gridlock. |
It was probably ‘fine’ because it was operated at a lower capacity with flights cancelled to fit into the movement quota. |
Originally Posted by T54A
(Post 11557960)
SYD (and MEL) ATC would do well to send a team over to LHR/FRA/MUC to learn a bit. They make mountains out of mole hills and could be a lot more efficient.
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Originally Posted by Wizofoz
(Post 11558310)
I'm glad you've found the most critical part of my post. The ten odd minutes per arriival and departure added taxiing to the eastern runway are irrelevent because there's somewhere eles that's twelve. Thanks for putting me straight.
The longest taxi route at YSSY is 5.2km. Narita has a taxi route thats 9.5km long. Osaka, 7.5km. Singapore I've taxied DOUBLE the YSSY distance, over 10.5km when departing off 02R. 10.5x2=12 right? There is nothing special about Sydneys taxi route. |
The difference between a 34L and 34R taxi is only 2-3 minutes. Are we seriously complaining over 2 minutes?!
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Originally Posted by VHOED191006
(Post 11558411)
The difference between a 34L and 34R taxi is only 2-3 minutes. Are we seriously complaining over 2 minutes?!
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Originally Posted by das Uber Soldat
(Post 11558401)
Don't cry at me. You made some ludicrous claim, its wrong, I'm pointing it out. Do you believe you're entitled to say whatever you want regardless of fact and we're all required to just nod in agreement?
The longest taxi route at YSSY is 5.2km. Narita has a taxi route thats 9.5km long. Osaka, 7.5km. Singapore I've taxied DOUBLE the YSSY distance, over 10.5km when departing off 02R. 10.5x2=12 right? There is nothing special about Sydneys taxi route. |
Originally Posted by Wizofoz
(Post 11558447)
The point was it would be more efficient to use shorter taxis when traffic allows. You concentrated on a slightly hyperbolic turn of phrase rather than the actual point. I'm sure there is an award somewhere for being the guy that scotres the most points correcting irrelevent details.
What a bizarre thing to lie about. Back to the thread, is this claim another 'irrelevant detail'?
Originally Posted by AAPA
Minimal delays
You sure about that? I copped a 1.5 hour COBT delay because of the 1 runway that day. Then further holding into YSSY. |
Originally Posted by das Uber Soldat
(Post 11558448)
If its an irrelevant detail, why did you even make up this nonsense claim, and then repeatedly defend its veracity? :D
What a bizarre thing to lie about. Back to the thread, is this claim another 'irrelevant detail'? You sure about that? I copped a 1.5 hour COBT delay because of the 1 runway that day. Then further holding into YSSY. |
Originally Posted by Wizofoz
(Post 11558446)
Sure, Now compare 16L and 16R.
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Originally Posted by T54A
(Post 11557960)
SYD (and MEL) ATC would do well to send a team over to LHR/FRA/MUC to learn a bit. They make mountains out of mole hills and could be a lot more efficient.
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Originally Posted by VHOED191006
(Post 11558460)
And? It's a 5 minute difference.
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Originally Posted by Wizofoz
(Post 11558468)
So do that on domestic ops- 6 sectors a day- and what do you get?
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Originally Posted by Wizofoz
(Post 11558468)
So do that on domestic ops- 6 sectors a day- and what do you get?
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Originally Posted by SOPS
(Post 11558463)
And LGW to see how to use 1 runway.
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Originally Posted by SOPS
(Post 11558463)
And LGW to see how to use 1 runway.
And if they did visit LGW they'd soon realise that its not a valid comparison to compare MEL 16, SYD 16R to LGW 26L or 08R. Both 26L and 08R have taxiways that enter the runway prior to the landing threshold, so the departing is able to line up sooner than would be the case at MEL 16 B, or SYD 16R A1/B1/B2. Simple maths. They'd see then application of meaningful COBTs, not a 20 minute compliance window (AUS -5 to +15minutes). They'd see plenty of concrete, and very few runway crossings. They'd see tugs that move quickly. They'd see Class D procedures. They'd see other ATCs doing the best they can within the restrictions that they have. They'd see a management team supportive of the line controllers. And jet engines performing much closer to ISA 15C. |
Originally Posted by missy
(Post 11558658)
Given both LHR and LGW are actively recruiting ATCs then there might be a few MEL and SYD TWR ATCs arranging their own visits!!
And if they did visit LGW they'd soon realise that its not a valid comparison to compare MEL 16, SYD 16R to LGW 26L or 08R. Both 26L and 08R have taxiways that enter the runway prior to the landing threshold, so the departing is able to line up sooner than would be the case at MEL 16 B, or SYD 16R A1/B1/B2. Simple maths. They'd see then application of meaningful COBTs, not a 20 minute compliance window (AUS -5 to +15minutes). They'd see plenty of concrete, and very few runway crossings. They'd see tugs that move quickly. They'd see Class D procedures. They'd see other ATCs doing the best they can within the restrictions that they have. They'd see a management team supportive of the line controllers. They would also Director Positions focussing purely on Runway sequencing instead of doing APP service, DEP service and planner position all at the same time. They would also see computerised wake turbulence spacing with reduced separation minima (costs $$$) They would also see aircraft being at 180KN at 20nm to touch down and pilots not whinging about it They would also see aircraft in long level segments conifgured with power on and not whinging about it Compare apples with apples, Any trained ATC can do that stuff given the resources and support. |
They would also see aircraft in long level segments conifgured with power on and not whinging about it |
Originally Posted by C441
(Post 11559511)
No CDA?
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CDA applied to arrivals into LHR and LGW, no level segment greater than 2nm below 6000’.
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maybe send some pilots there too to see how to line up and go, and to vacate with minimum delay. When airports still build taxi exits at 90 degrees to the runway when they could build high speed exits? When I cannot be told to line up behind the aircraft on final, I only get the line up after they pass me at the holding point. Sure, blame the pilots. |
For that reason a SYD-MEL sector (for example) is planned with a 1hr 35min block time |
Originally Posted by Icarus2001
(Post 11560201)
Oh really.
When airports still build taxi exits at 90 degrees to the runway when they could build high speed exits? When I cannot be told to line up behind the aircraft on final, I only get the line up after they pass me at the holding point. Sure, blame the pilots. |
Originally Posted by Ken Borough
(Post 11560210)
It wasn't that long ago when all jet operators scheduled 1hr 20mins in each direction. We've really progressed, haven't we?
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I remember it was fairly difficult to do 1:20 SYD/MEL with a 15 min taxi to 34R.
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Originally Posted by Verbal Kint
(Post 11560630)
I remember it was fairly difficult to do 1:20 SYD/MEL with a 15 min taxi to 34R.
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