EBA negotiations...a hypothetical?
 

Imagine an EBA negotiation situation where a long standing member is voted off the committee because the pilot group believes they are out of touch. Then due to pilots moving on to other airlines, spots open up and this pilot is now back on the committee. Then this pilot suddenly becomes the lead negotiator that allegedly no one wanted.

Then imagine if a committee was to conduct negotiations but doesnt provide specific details to the pilot group because they dont want to give anything away to the company. It would be crazy right if they didnt ask the group what they wanted, but instead pushed for changes that could potentially benefit an individual's rank and base the most?

imagine coming to an agreement with the company that means 2am reserves are now a thing, but knowing you will never have to fly that early because your base doesn't operate those flights.

Imagine accepting a duty hours deal that doesn't benefit most bases, but benefits your own base because you historically get more trips per roster. Imagine giving up a 50% increase to the duty hour allowance just so you can get paid while sleeping in a hotel (while most bases do day trips or minimum rest overnights).

Imagine selling out the unborn with three junior FO scales to help fund a 15 year captain scale.

Imagine supporting a type freeze so pilots wont be able to change bases.

Imagine supporting a deal that is going to help the company win the war against those pesky WA pilots.

Are you sure its a hypothetical? Or a rhetorical?

Well it proves the old adage that the world is run by those who turn up.

Rather than complain on here why don’t you get on committee and stop it happening in the first place.

End of the day just vote no

Sounds like similar things that happened with Qantas long haul pilots where said pilot gets a job negotiating for the company.

As scummy and believable as it that sounds, Its ultimately up to the pilot group to vote for or against anything that gets negotiated.

Yup.

You get the Government, or in this case, the EBA you deserve.

The word of the day is: Solidarity

Pay no mind to these naysayers TrashDash - Sunnie's and Eastern's negotiators have overpromised and underdelivered.
As long as 51% of the pilot body don't have rocks for brains you'll have the chance to take the PIA you've always wanted.

Toodle pip!

The majority of the group votes on the EBA, not one person. Sounds like someone has an axe to grind and an anonymous post here is best thing they could think of..

Time to end the old boys club. Imagine belittling FOs who can barely pay their mortgage not to take call ins. Easy to say when you've been on a captain salary for decades, must be good to dial in for pilot updates from overseas trips.

The argument was better FO pay was needed to attract and retain, but then sold them out to fund a higher Captain scale. Multiple FO pay scales just creates more division and anger.

Makes you wonder is Qantas the place to be….

No matter what you think of the negotiators, it is impossible for them to do what you say, they can put forward a new EBA following the process you say but guess what? The pilot body can just vote no! Keep voting No until the pilot body gets what they want, the negotiators can’t just do nasty little back room deals.

Hi TrashDash

Can I suggest you actually talk to someone on the negotiating team as your post is full of inaccuracies.
Rumours and gossip do not serve anyone well.

I signed the contract for the shiny turboprop, with a training bond to start in 6 weeks. Now I have a offer for a shiny jet. Question is if I haven't started yet with the shiny turboprop, can I start on the shiny jet without paying the bond, for the shiny turboprop?

looks pretty accurate and if the council/neg team want to rebut then you know where the reply button is

Yes.

At least with every operator I've been involved in that bonds for training. Afterall, you haven't received any training anyway.

Judging by the crew room discussions and the group chats, memes and videos doing the rounds the last few days, I'd suggest it's actually the union and negotiating team that need to talk to the pilot group.

The view out there is you have not actually listened to what the pilot group wants and you act like you know what's best for all of us. You had one roadshow months ago that didn't cover the specifics of the in-principle deal you've done. You're going to struggle to get this one voted up.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....28d856b9d9.jpg

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....f09e6092c6.jpg
Screenshots of one of the videos doing the rounds.

They will steadfastly refuse to engage on any form of social media while running around and blaming it for rumours and misinformation

Easy, vote no.

If anyone is supportive of the recent offer, and brave enough to own up, could you discuss what's good about the offer?

given that complete radio silence has descended again I don't think even the negotiation team are willing to take up your offer

Overall, are pilots going to make more money? Yes. But was this the agreement that the union was prepared to go down the PIA path for? Debatable. There are also some concessions that are going to be an issue.

Pay - 3% backdate to start of 2023, then 3% (+ 5% first year), 3%, 3% increases. I get that's an improvement, but doesnt really address the backwards steps the pilot group has taken in recent years. Nor does it attract or retain people to the airline (which was one of the union's main arguments for increased pay). Plenty of spreadsheets doing the rounds showing how we are going backwards. Pilots will keep going to Alliance, Virgin and others.

15 year scale - helps the guys that have been around for years. Instantly get a bump from a 10 year scale to a 15 year scale. This is good for senior pilots, but at what cost? See next...

FO tiers - "A new low time pilot separate pay scale based on flight time to be implemented". Three different scales keep wages down. You are either an FO, or you are not, so pay them appropriately. This scale doesn't help the FOs, and makes them feel they've been sold out to get a 15 year Captain scale. Plus the base wage is only 3% above the award - are you kidding?! Again, the argument was we need to attract new pilots, then this terrible FO deal has been pencilled. Pilots aren't applying for QLink jobs because of the low wages, having an E scale $2000 p.a. above award won't attract them. Just hold off for the QF job or take Alliance instead.

Duty hour allowance - now paid for the whole time from commencement to sign off at home base. So it means you get paid for the overnight. This again means more money, but it seems like the wrong path has been taken, which is causing all the angst amongst the bases. Apparently Easterns were offered a big duty hour allowance increase (50% perhaps), but was for the time you were actually on duty (so you didn't get paid while off duty in a hotel). However, most QLink duties are single day duties, or a minimum rest overnights (usually one a week). So simple maths shows that most pilots would benefit from an increase to the current DHA structure rather than implementing the new DHAA structure at a lower rate. Again plenty of spreadsheets doing the rounds with current rostering proving this. The only base that benefits from this scheme is the Cairns base, which has double the overnights of other bases, including many three day trips. The argument is the union wants this to avoid the company rostering big trips in the future. I'm not convinced it will make a difference, and most bases lose out on the higher rate and structure that was a possibility. Overall, the company dodged a financial bullet by not having to accept the AIPA Eastern DHA deal.

18/24 month type freezes. This will affect anyone wanting to go from the classic to Q400. This does not affect the Cairns base - they are all Q400s. However, it stops Adelaide pilots getting to Brisbane. If you take an Adelaide base, you are stuck there. Good luck getting people to apply now! Eastern will have to fall in line with Sunstate for their EBA, which means they won't be able to upgrade to the Q400. Plus, what happens if you take a Sydney classic job, but want to transfer to Brisbane (like many new FOs). Again, you cant do this with a type freeze. Overall, there is no benefit to the pilot group for this concession - only career and base stagnation, but this benefits the company big time with reduced training and relocation costs. But if you live in FNQ you wouldn't be aware of this problem...

2am sign ons - another concession to 'fund' this average EBA. Again, this doesn't affect Cairns pilots. But Brisbane pilots will cop it because they do the early FIFO charters. The union claims they want lifestyle, this absolutely ruins lifestyle even if it's only a couple of times a roster.

10 days off a month. Seems pretty good but there are some massive question marks. The company can buy back one day at roster publish. So if I bid for days off, and get awarded them, can the company force a buy back one of these? If so, that's not what I'd want as it ruins the bidding system. They need to only be able to buy back non requested days off. The devil is in the detail, hopefully the committee thought of this.

The buy back is at a day's rate. Sounds ok, but it's only half a current day off payment. So FOs will get an extra $300 pre tax a month, and Captains $600 (approximately depending on scale). "The undertaking from the company is to resource to a level where all pilots receive 10 days off at roster publish". Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha, are you kidding? This will never happen due "resourcing or operational constraints".

Overall, the in principle agreement is going to create massive division. Back to the bad old days where Eastern pilots hate Sunstate pilots because Sunstate took a selfish and turd deal. But now Sunstate pilots will also resent Sunstate pilots - the agreement benefits Cairns pilots the most and it's almost like the committee forgot there was an Adelaide base. And when the lead negotiator is a senior Cairns pilot, you can see why some pilots believe, correctly or not, that the agreement has been developed to benefit certain individuals the most.

The silence from the union and committee has been deafening. The pilots are seething but once again the union isn't communicating with the members to explain the benefits or structure of the deal. We got one catch up to discuss the negotiation months ago, but none of the "in principle" details were discussed. Pilots are going to vote no just to show what they think about the committee's leadership.

Sounds like it will be a no then. This is the most favourable circumstances I’ve seen since the 90’s to get some gains into a contract ( as opposed to nearly keeping up with inflation) so if you don’t vote for a contract that makes you smile this year, you probably never will.

Most pertinent and erudite comment regarding the Australian aviation industry post covid :ok:

Excellent summary Aimpoint.

A little further on the duty hours issue:
Classic guys and gals don’t like it. I haven’t seen any of those spreadsheets but I have seen a lot of FOs particularly banding together on this and putting their own ideas forward.

In Sydney the classic fleet does bugger all overnights compared to the 400, and almost exclusively 9hr min rest. The feeling is that the overnight bump is not as equitable an idea as a straight increase, and rewards a fleet that’s already paid more.
In Melbourne there are more hotel trips, and a whole lot more drivers that miss the six blade days. A bit of attraction and retention focus there and in Adelaide wouldn’t go astray either. No one would need a fleet freeze if there wasn’t two pay scales for the same job.

I don’t know what the best answer is this time around, and personally that’s my irritation: none of these ideas have been sold to the group, just slapped on an email that says we’ve agreed.
I don’t think half of them were on the survey, whenever that was.

Company Rules of Engagement Handbook:

Rule 4 - identify who are on the council, identify their needs and reward them.

The proposed EA rewards the life linkers. That’s always been the case at Sunstate probably Eastern as well.

While the majors are recruiting LINK will always bleed pilots. For the young kids watching, apply for a jet gig while you can. You’ll be earning bare minimum to pay rent in Sydney at LINK. Most FOs have side gigs and looks like that won’t change any time soon …

Rex is your quickest way to a Qantas Group Jet gig. The numbers are there to prove this.

Only 6 months ago - CP quote : “QantasLink will be the only way pathway into mainline”. Ironic how there is a mainline job advert for externals as we speak.

As someone in the 10 year plus bracket, the immediate pay bump is about the only benefit to this proposed EBA and if I was selfish, I’d vote yes based on that alone. I do high duty hours but little overnights so the DHAAAAAAAAA rate means 4/5 of **** all to me.

There appears to be close to zero in it for 80% of the pilot group. The boost in pay to the F/O’s will only get them above the award for a few years and then they’ll be back to where we are now.

The company can’t even recruit to fund the current 8 days off a roster, so you’re never going to see 10 days off. They’ll just accept the extra 8 hrs pay a roster and move on.

I’ve only heard one person openly say they support the proposed agreement. ADL base and just about every F/O appears to be in the ‘No’ camp.

Voting this up will be a wasted opportunity as it’s never been a better time to make significant inroads into years of eroded conditions. That doesn’t mean we need to go straight for the pitchforks and flaming torches style of PIA, but the negotiating team need to go back to the table and they need a clear mandate from a united pilot group to do that.

It’s the only language these IR practitioners understand. They will laugh at you until you take the PIA bat to them.

Yeah, I was hoping that someone could mansplain it for me, but the reality I can see is that this agreement is bad for everyone but a select few.

Current rumour I've heard is that this will delay our usage of PIA past an expiry date of the vote, and we'll have to vote again to undertake PIA, can anyone confirm?

I honestly thought that the survey was clear that we need a significant increase in base pay, this agreement is not that, where is the disconnect in the bargaining team?

EBA time always used to frustrate me to no end back in my Dash days. IMO every proposed change always seemed to be of benefit to a handful of people who ran the show and there really wasn’t any point proposing anything else at the info nights as everything anyone suggested got shot down by old mate.

Everything always annoyingly got voted up first time under the threat of removing backpay/one off payments, as there were so many people planning to go elsewhere that they didn’t really care about a lot of the detail, just getting their payments before pissing off.

Have to agree, this is a massive piss take. If it's a day off, they can pay the double-time rate. "Buying it back" at a days pay means it was never a day off to begin with.

It's disappointing that the bargaining team have accepted "we'll do our best".

so we have someone who is looking to move from a base of 144% of the award to 151% of the award telling people that 103% of the award is good enough for new starters, when the new starters pay scale was bought in it was 108% of the award

If the individual is a union rep, couldn't the pilot group show a vote of no confidence? Or something along those lines?

not sure if there is scope for a vote of no confidence but from the AFAP rules an extraordinary general meeting can be called

Oh boy you got an info night? Those would’ve been the days :}

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....fdb8132bbb.jpg

Out comes the 🍿

According to last night's email, a class 'A' Q400 FO will earn $14000 less PA than a 'normal' FO. By year 4 the gap will be nearly $16000.

You've sold out the FO ranks and future pilots.

Anyone applying to QantasLink should be very concerned about this. Do not accept a base you cannot see yourself living in for 24 months. This clause only benefits the company, and seems to forgot there's an Adelaide base. Adelaide is a great place to live but new hirers that want Brisbane should not apply for that base if this EBA gets up. You will be stuck on the Q300 and therefore can't move to the Q400 which is a Brisbane base. You've given the company a massive training cost saving with this clause.

Committee pretending this is a win they achieved is laughable. CASA would never allow this FRMS time off period to be walked back.

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First, if the company isn't honoring the current agreement, then what the actual F has the committee been doing the last few years?

And how does this make rostering of overnights more equitable across different bases? The nature of Cairns flying means you will get the most overnights and make more money. Adelaide get stuff all overnights, which are usually min rest or close. So certain bases are clearly going to make more money.

Come clean and explain what the original DHA offer was. Word on the street is AIPA were offered a 50% increase, which meant more money overall in everyone's pockets.

An FO in Sydney on the classic fleet will be hard up making it week to week. They don't get many overnights at all, and you can guarantee that they will be taking any gig as soon as it comes up. There won't be many long term classic drivers at this rate.

Ahh, QantasLink and side letters. A match made in non-legally-binding paradise.