“Reasonable rational instructions concerning safety”

So now entitled to choose what is reasonable and rational in a FCOM I think I should buy a cigar and one of those pocket ashtrays and light up during boarding People smoked for decades onboard there is no immediate concern to safety of flight. When told to put it out I will refuse then claim discrimination.

Interesting that all this discussion has been generated by a media story from one of the more trashy news outlets. The facts are very much different to that presented including that the "victim" at the centre of it was already being a nuisance before he boarded. It also transpires that the "victims" statement about off loading if the police were called was made to the PIC who had come out of the flight deck to try and resolve the issue. The PIC thought that would peacefully resolve the matter but of course the "victim" decided to take it up a notch.

So you agree the original request to return to his other seat had nothing to do with safety. So on what grounds was it made. The guy ultimately ended up getting tasered because of this decision by the CC to intervene.
You explain how his (and his family's) comfort, safety, and security were managed (as per JQ's CoC) by the CC dictating that he move to another seat. Did she take all reasonable steps (as per JQ's CoC)? No other passenger except the one mutually swapped with, who had voluntarily accepted any change in their own circumstances, was affected in any way. The direction to him to move back to his seat was not based on anything except the CC's whim at the time. She took no reasonable steps. She didn't apply it evenly, She didn't apply it to the other passenger. She didn't make a big deal that two passengers had supposedly endangered everyone else on board by not sitting in their assigned seat. She went after just one, based on whatever floated her boat at the time. And that's bullsh*t. It then turned into a clash of personalities. Absolutely nothing to do with safety, just pig-headedness on both parts. Unfortunately, CC stupidity and intransigence is protected, while a passenger's is not.

The simply fact is a crew member asked a passenger (rightly or wrongly) to do something. That passenger did not comply. Therefore that passenger was asked to leave the aircraft. As they also did not comply with that instruction, the AFP was called. What happened after that is nothing to do with the crew. But I will say this...

For those who blame the CSM have you considered the following?
1. What if 15 pax want you swap seats is that okay? How many is okay? 1? 3? 12?
2. What level Of non compliance from pax is acceptable?
3. When the aircraft is delayed and a report is required from the CSM , Is Jetstar going to support her decision to provide good customer service instead of following the ops manual?
3. Was she ever provided any sort of customer service training?
4. The fact she works for one of the worst companies in Australia in terms of care, respect and support for it's staff? What is the likely hood of being on the wrong side of Jetstar's punitive culture? I'd say its very high.
5. Many of Jetstar's regular "clientele" can be difficult, misbehaving and feral. Maybe she just reached her limit?

I think this incident is just a result of a poor customer service at the airport mixed with a frustrated and tierd crew, sick of feral pax and continually being beaten down by a horrible management and punitive culture resulting in a zero care factor. Mix that with a couple of keen AFPs with their fingers on the trigger and you get this incident.
If one of my crew are having a problem with a pax I'm not going into the cabin to show them my superiority. I'll listen and if they feel they can't get the passenger to be compliment or they are uncomfortable then the pax is getting off. End of discussion. I trust my crew. Exactly the same as they trust me to do my job.
Jet star treating you like **** is not a reason for ignoring my crews instructions. After all the only people JQ treat worse than their pax is their employees! We all know how ****** jetstar is. It's not an excuse to be a prick.

The safety risk caused by old mate’s refusal to follow the instruction to move back to his allocated seat was […

The father is a nervous flyer ,it would appear.

Everyone is different with

Genetic instinct is to protect your family or die trying.

His genuine/or imagined ability to protect his family is best served by his presence, not 10 rows back.

As ordered and demanded by insensitive AFP. CC.

His wife may possibly also be a very nervous person with perhaps limited English skills , her husbands’ presence will enhance her ability to cope with the family’s’ safety ,with whatever happens on take off or inflight, real or imagined.

Filing a complaint later does not resolve their immediate anxiety.

As dealing with all mixes of passengers they have individually diverse background in confidence, respect and faith in authority to protect their family.

That is reinforced by some posts on this “professional forum”

Everyone is responsible for risk assessments in the workplace.

Check list & SOP, Deviation is well documented.

Ignorance on the crew awareness of the childs’ father genuine safety concern especially escalating the situation.

Its quite clear that you are not interested in the facts. The facts are the "victim" got tasered by the AFP for not following their instructions. Jetstar staff are not issued and are not trained on the use of a taser. If the AFP had to use a taser then it is obvious that the "victim" was never going to comply with any instruction given to him by anyone. If you as a passenger are not going to follow CC instructions then what do you think will happen during an evacuation when you will be instructed to leave everything behind? Get over yourself. When you board any aircraft if the CC say that you have to return to the seat number printed on your boarding pass they are not picking randoms to make themselves feel better. They are doing so because of a reason they don't have to explain. They also would prefer not to as they just want to finish their duty with a minimum of fuss.

Whats with the "black" for goodness sake, the CC wasn't caucasian if you want to play the race card. Prat. Thought the colour reference may have been promotion for your railway station shoe shine gig.

Why were the AFP there? Because it started with JQ being unable to deal with this situation appropriately, given what safety infraction the passenger had originally committed.
No, they are not picking randoms. They are picking specific passengers for a reason they can't explain, because there is no explanation. Incidentally, there's a gate number, boarding time, departure time printed on my boarding pass. None of those are rigidly adhered to by the airline. It appears only some things are chosen to be enforced, seemingly at the whim of individuals

Be outraged then TIEW. The Captain tried to sort it out and the "victim" wanted the police. The "victim" then decided to assault the AFP so he got tasered for his decision to not do what they asked.

What reason would that be then? As has been stated the CC just want to get through the day doing the job they are asked to do, in the manner the airline wants it done, with the co-operation of the passengers.

Go by train then or drive yourself.

You can drop the try hard suburban lawyer routine.

Try reading what I actually wrote - and only what I wrote - which simply said that a previous posters claim that asking the bloke to move to his allocated seat compromised his safety is, in my opinion, rubbish.

It no doubt compromised his personal desire to sit with his family, but his safety? BS.
Regardless of anything else if he’d just done as he was told he could have swapped seats five minutes after takeoff and spent the entire flight until just before landing in the seat he wanted. And if he still felt aggrieved afterwards he could have filed a complaint.
That’s what any normal rational person would do.

The fact he got tasered and dragged off the plane is entirely his fault, although I know these days personal responsibility is basically non existent.

I have never worked for Jetstar so can’t comment on whether the culture there encourages people to use discretion when it comes to varying company policy. Or whether senior management will back junior staff if they commit any inadvertent breach of the rules.
But having worked at CASA for a brief period, and having dealt with them over many years, I can tell you that some of the most difficult people within that organisation are those who oversee cabin safety procedures and cabin crew training. To cop an audit from this lot can be a nightmare. They will nitpick the slightest deviance from the regulations and company operations manual. When they approve EP instructors they really put them through the wringer. A pilot flight examiner approval is much easier than some of what I have seen in the cabin crew training arena.
Having been trained by, and working in, such a culture , the CC’s handling of ‘old mate’ is no surprise. Also, bear in mind it was he - not she - that demanded the cops be brought in to resolve the issue. Which they did…

I disagree with how this was handled, and in particular the last sentence that “people have a right to be rude….”
At the point where he threatened staff and became abusive is right where he SHOULD have been carted off by the cops for some attitude adjustment

My humble take on the situation is that the airline might require you to be in your ticketed seat for the take off in the event of a take off incident where there are casualties. Makes for easier identification possibly, depending on the nature of the accident. One might even ask the question why go to the bother of assigning seats, have traveled on an airline DC-9 where it wasn't policy, you grabbed whatever seat you wanted of those available, first in best dressed. A light load might have required CC to direct pax to certain rows for CoG reasons perhaps, our flight was chock full both ways.Something police and customs staff see all too regularly.

The identification rationale is false.

In a serious crash the seats detach from the rails and end up piled up at the front of the cabin,

The seat numbers are on the overhead lockers. No help.

That is where the DVI team comes in, as people move seats all the time, without being found out.

Also remember the airline has no idea who is on their aircraft as ID is not required.

Look, CC were probably wrong in requesting this passenger to go to his allocated seat. We don't know why they requested it, none of us were there. I'll say it again, CC were probably wrong.
But this pasenger was definitely wrong in not complying. Yes, it would suck to be away from his family, yes he had every right to be irritated, but not complying is not an option.
For some posters that took this to absurdity asking if I would comply with instructions of doing pushups or whatever it was, have you ever heard of such a request?
I am going to take it to another extreme, should all passengers that have traveled on MD-80 planes go all the way forward, to avoid noise from those back mounted engines? Who cares if CC tells them to go back to their seats due to CG. Or should I just ignore CC if I decide I want to seat in first class if there are empty seats? There is no safety reason that prevents me doing so. I mean, I want it, so I have every right to do so.
What he should have done is to comply, lodge a complaint after landing and chose never to fly that airline again. He could even sue them for caused distress, if he choses so. And all of us here would fully support him in doing so.

They must do, on a QF transpac had a CC come direct to my seat with a message from the cockpit and I knew none of the crew.

don’t think that’s the point. On a domestic flight the staff know which name should be in which seat. That’s no proof the person in that seat matches the name as no id checks at boarding.

transpac at least passports have been correlated to boarding pass

15 pages of exactly the same arguments again and again and again.

No, not me. I don’t recall, admikar, giving you authority to speak on my behalf.

Megan, I am referring to domestic flights. No ID required to print boarding pass. Even if it was I can hand my boarding pass to another male who could board instead of me. As I said, airlines have no idea who is on board.

Icarus, got the message, UTR clearly spelled it out, thanks. :ok:

She ro ably did tell him, it’s incidents like this traumatised children
 

I saw no mention of that by the cabin crew person, but just bcos it’s not in the footage doesn’t mean she didn’t explain this to him. She doesn’t owe anyone an explanation anyway. Passengers should do what they’re asked to.

Jetstar crew are in charge of that cabin, NOT THE PASSENGERS! it’s the principle. It’s all about safety, so if she suspects someone is going to refuse to take orders, it’s better to know this while they can still remove them before take off.
Good luck trying to control a violent male during a flight. Whose going to protect passengers if this prick becomes violent towards her or other passengers? refusing to follow basic a request deserves to get kicked off the flight and kicked out of the country (if I had anything to do with it). Everyone knows you obey crew orders, it’s a matter of respect. it’s obvious he has no respect for either.
same as wearing seat belts, masks, and getting vaccinated, following lockdown rules. Africans did the opposite of what they were told, then pretend they don’t understand, give me a frigging break. the truth is, some people don’t give a **** about rules, even when it puts everyones health at risk. Refusing to get vaccinated, refuse to stay indoors, refuse to wear masks. The people who defend African’s like this one, don’t live near them and are not affected by their criminal behaviour.

100% correct.
 

I totally agree, this is why lockdown in the high rises (north Melbourne) had to be enforced by police, because some people think they don’t need wear masks, or follow government health warnings, or instructions of any kind, then play the racist card when they get arrested for breaking the law. CC are in charge of the cabin, they are in charge of SAFETY - safety compliance is THE most important part of CC’s JOB, for all the reasons you listed.

It was HIS choice to disobey the woman in charge of safety.
 

This passenger had a choice - to follow or ignore a cabin crew’s instructions.

There is no excuse for HIS actions.

Yea, so important they make absolutely no effort at all to make sure that passengers are sitting in their assigned seats before takeoff or landing. They don't even really know who is on their flight. I've accidently scanned my wife's boarding pass, and she's used mine, and the gate attendant and FA at the door have not even noticed which we are presenting. We could have sat anywhere as well, so long as the seat we chose was vacant and no one else turned up looking for that seat. The FA's would not have had a clue, AND DON"T have a clue who is sitting where.
Provide an example of where JQ provide notice to any passengers of the requirement to sit in the seat noted on their Boarding Pass. Provide a reason that the two passengers in this case swapping seats in any way compromised the safety of this flight. This was nothing to do with safety.
Fixed that for you. It's obviously not common sense.
Bingo. Root cause in one.

Newborn infants seating arrangements
 

Captain David Morgan

Think of it like a balance point; if the centre of gravity (COG) is too far forward or too far backward, the aircraft can become unstable, difficult to control or demand more fuel than necessary.

“We want the centre of gravity, if we can, towards the back of the aircraft because the aeroplanes produce less drag if it’s there,” Captain Morgan explained.

So, how do airlines ensure the COG stays within the envelope?

By distributing the weight of passengers, cargo and fuel accordingly.

To ensure it’s specific, the plane’s final COG is calculated right before departure when the exact number of passengers (who are assigned an average weight), cargo weight and placement of these items, is known.

“It’s important that the aircraft’s centre of gravity is actually where we expected it to be from the calculations,” Morgan said, as minutes before departure, the information is sent to pilots in what is called a “load sheet”.

This is used by pilots to help determine the required thrust and speed for takeoff.

Ive had my home invaded by Sudanese and Somali criminals, whose culture doesn’t respect women. They (African males) are less inclined to follow rules, much the same as uneducated, white bogans.

The CC should’ve checked if she could move to the front of the aircraft where parents with babies are usually seated, because they have bassinets for children under 2. This FO could’ve been more understanding of a mother travelling with an infant. However, refusing to return to your seat when asked, is not on.

What a ********..
 

The passengers weight is calculated, and the crew trust passengers can read English and sit in their allocated seat clearly printed on everyone’s ticket. It’s not the same as swapping seats at the footy, or cinema. It’s an aircraft, and if you can’t understand that, you have issues.

Can cause some headaches if it’s a A321, people start moving zones, then it takes a million re counts until some crew figure out what the heck has gone wrong, you can ask pax a million times on the blower who has moved seats nobody will own up until you go row by row. To keep it easy for crew who rotate between different sized fleets, just sit in your damn allocated seat. Sure, other carriers do weight and balance many times better, but just gotta deal with the systems that exist. Poor software is another thread in itself.

Thanks for the insight Poppa.
 

all you can do is ask politely, but if she says no, just trust there’s a reading and accept it. It’s called manners.

Charging extra Money.. I think this is another reason why
 

I just read about Canada airline charging $10-100 more to be seated next to family. They changed the rules to recentry after parents complained about toddlers and young children being seated by themselves, forcing parents to pay for premium seating arrangements, or risk their child sitting on their own. How ridiculous and money hungry

Always find it amusing when Staff traveling on Jetstar with the kids and they give us seats all over the aircraft.

I simply go up to the grumpy bums behind the desk and explain that we’ll get on this flight either way and my 3 year old will refuse to sit next to a stranger and your flight will end up getting delayed when you offload us and have to look for our multiple car seats, prams and bags. Usually a bit of common sense prevails and magically a seat together is found.

Its a PA made literally every single sector. Usually twice.

How does passenger A, of weight X, swapping seats with passenger B, of weight X, affect whether an aircraft is within its weight and balance envelope, Kylie? Is it that the different skin colours of passengers of the same weight have differing consequences for the seats in which they are sitting?

Do I have to explain passenger zones to you Mr smart @ss?

Yes, please Climb 150 - please explain it. Cause I agree with Lead here.

Earlier in this thread I made a comment about the general lack of Customer Service training and inability of some staff to empathise with customers and the general public, which almost certainly contributed to the situation at the start of this thread.

I had an appalling first hand experience with Jetstar over the weekend when I took a family member with 18mth old toddler to a regional airport as they had to fly to Sydney. Generally, my family and I don't fly with Jetstar - but in this instance the timing of the flight meant they were the only option that could work.

We arrived at the airport with a travel stroller and (carefully weighed) carry on bag, plus a small backpack for the toddler's stuff on the flight. Extra baggage piece was paid for with the appropriate level of fare, and I noted that Jetstar charge $30 for the privilege of having an infant sitting on your lap. Not aware of any other Aus airline that tries this on?

At the gate, after courteously letting most people board, my family member and I politely asked the uniformed Jetstar employee if she could have assistance getting either the bag or travel strolled up the stairs into the aircraft as she has MS and struggles to lift things up stairs.

The reply was curt and shockingly bereft of any empathy:

"No."

To which I replied...

"I'm sorry, is it possible that someone else - say one of the ground crew or someone could give her a hand please?"

The employee, now visibly irritated, replied:

"No. I can't help you. You should have checked the bag. It's not our problem."

I actually couldn't believe what I was hearing.

"Well I'll go out and help her up the stairs then. She has a disability."

"No, you can't. You're not authorised."

(At this point I thought briefly about pointing her I did in fact have an ASIC, but then pictured overzealous regional airport jackbooted security thugs arresting me and thought better.)

"So you're saying that no-one will assist her, and that she has to carry this stuff and a toddler up the stairs herself?"

By now the family member is practically in tears, toddler is crying, and she gives up on the robot we'd been dealing with, heading out onto the tarmac.

I watch through the security fence and see an elderly passenger who was also boarding took pity on her and offered to help. Two ground handlers stood at the bottom of the stairs and watched.

---

On arrival, the family member allows all to disembark first so she can take time to get the stroller and suitcase out. The cabin crew knew she was there and offered no help. They decided to start boarding the next leg without waiting for her to disembark, so she had to fight through people streaming down the aisle to exit.

No care.

No compassion.

Staff that seem almost hostile to the patrons that support their employment.

If this is your attitude you have no business being in a service industry. You might also need professional help.

If one of my staff treated anyone like that, let alone someone with a disability travelling with a child, they'd receive a formal warning and remedial training - and if it happened again they'd be fired.

Mate it’s not Jetstar, it’s the new woke Australia who don’t give a Continental about anyone but themselves.

service standards across the board have gone and Jetstar is a reflection of that. My son flew BNE-SYD on VA last weekend and all but ignored at the gate and onboard when he tried to order his snack. No big deal but where is the service? I forget they switched his flight at the last minute after I drove to the airport

I hope you got her name and will be reporting the bitch. Tell Jetstar that you are thinking of taking it to the media.

I’m not a mechanical engineer, but this info is easy to find
 

[QUOTE=Lead Balloon;11468326]How does passenger A, of weight X, swapping seats with passenger B, of weight X, affect whether an aircraft is within its weight and balance envelope, Kylie? Is it that the different skin colours of passengers of the same weight have differing consequences for the seats in which they are sitting?[/QUOTE

its not skin his skin colour, his attitude is a culture that lacks respect for women in positions of power or authority. you have no clue about African culture, I do. Their attitude is from 1960. in Australia, if cabin crew, or any jetstar employer asks you to return to the seat on your ticket, you comply with her orders, not hold up the flight arguing with her. Make a complaint to the media afterwards, instead of being an inconsiderate pig and giving her no option than to call the federal police to enforce the rules. Read the explanation from a pilot, there are reasons why they have rules. I experienced a similar scenario on a connection to an international flight, I paid for business and they mistakenly gave me economy, but there is no point arguing with them, you take it up with management later. I have seen Etihad upgrade pax (on their honeymoon) to first class, but I’m not an aviation expert, so I’m not going to argue with those in charge, cause delays, and ruin everyone else’s day and have children witness federal police arresting me. Think of the profound affect witnessing that kind of violence is going to have on children. I’d sue someone if that happened in front of my children on a flight, he is totally in the wrong! Adults and kids are traumatised witnessing that level of violence, and HIS stubbornness is the reason it escalated. I know it’s a pain to have to wear a seatbelt, or a mask, or get vaccinated, but you do what the government or police or cabin crew say, they are in charge, not the passengers. The reason the other passenger didn’t get tazered, is because he didn’t argue with police and probably would’ve returned to his seat, instead of hijacking the flight.

Matches the experiences I've had with Onestar - they're a disgrace and I won't fly with them.