ATC, RFF, WTF?
So, for a while now we’ve had constant ATIS updates every time one of the fireys goes for a leak and the RFF cat changes. Or we’ll be advised on short final that RFF is now Cat zero due to them attending an emergency somewhere on the airfield. What are we supposed to do with this information - go around and divert? Try even harder not to crash?
Then yesterday we had ATC asking each aircraft inbound to YSSY, one after the other, if they had the NOTAM advising RFF would be Cat 9. (You could just picture the bafflement on the flight deck of the United 787…). Again, of what practical use was this? If you work on the principle that unnecessary transmissions cluttering up the airwaves aren’t a good thing, then surely this isn’t a great idea. Plus, we don’t seem to get this if there’s a NOTAM advising that the threshold’s displaced 1000m or the HIALS are u/s, I’m not questioning the professionalism of ATC here, as I’m sure they’re just doing what’s required of them. Just trying to understand where this is coming from, as it seems to be a fairly new thing and not particularly helpful to anyone. Perhaps a rethink might be in order. |
It's so you'll try extra hard not to collide with the 97' AMSL tree that penetrates the VSS 2kms away from the ARP.
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Perhaps one of the more crusty skippers needs to reply with your question: "Yeah, thanks Center, but what do you actually expect me to do with that info?"
Begs the question, if you are out of options for suitable diversions and the RFF cat is below legislated requirements, do you declare MAYDAY [RFF] or hold hoping it comes back up until you declare MAYDAY Fuel? Otherwise you're breaking "the roolz" and you can't break the rules unless an emergency exists, right? |
Given that in Australia we have 100+ seat jets operating RPT into uncontrolled airports, with ZERO fire fighting or emergency response available, what is the purpose of the broadcast?
Perhaps it was picked up at an ICAO audit. *RPT as in transport category operations, part 121 |
It means that some bureaucrat safely camped behind his desk in Canberra can't be blamed if a 1/1 000 000 event occurs because ATC told you that RFF was degraded. That is why there are 1000's of irrelevant NOTAMs. That is why we have all these "rules" under the guise of safety. It's nothing about safety it's about protecting the bureaucracy and blaming pilots.
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Originally Posted by itsnotthatbloodyhard
(Post 11334245)
What are we supposed to do with this information -
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Conduct a missed approach, enter a holding pattern and each crew member put on an approved safety vest, prior to joining a 20 mile final.
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Originally Posted by Stationair8
(Post 11334350)
Conduct a missed approach, enter a holding pattern and each crew member put on an approved safety vest, prior to joining a 20 mile final.
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This is a systemic problem that pervades the distribution of essential flight info. This article nails it:
The Problem Of Bulls**t Notams |
Originally Posted by CaptainMidnight
(Post 11334342)
Stating the obvious: ask your company, what if anything you are required to do ......
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Originally Posted by Stationair8
(Post 11334350)
Conduct a missed approach, enter a holding pattern and each crew member put on an approved safety vest, prior to joining a 20 mile final.
Can't be too safe :zzz: |
Off the top of my head the only RFFS in the operational regs is regarding EDTO alternates when outside the Australian FIR they must be cat 4. Inside Aus there is no requirement. This was going to change in December 21 with the 121 introduction but has been bumped to Dec 23 when domestic EDTO alternates need to be Cat 4 139 compliant.
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First reg reference
MOS 139H 3.1.3.2 If advertised in ERSA, NOTAM action must be taken for any reduction below specified ARFFS category..... Second reg reference MOS 139H 25.1.3.2 NOTAM action is not necessary for temporary reductions in ARFFS provisions, provided that the type of aircraft movement planned for the aerodrome during the temporary reduction does not exceed the reduced category. In these circumstances ARFFS is to advise ATC of the details of the reduction by direct recorded line.Result: Any reduction in category, when scheduled aircraft movement require a higher category, must be promulgated somehow. I have asked what the expected outcome is, and what actions are expected of the crew for this information (as others have in this thread). All I got was "we must comply with the reg".Lead Balloon - this is the same situation for the VSS notams. Penetrations of the VSS shall be promulgated CASA are telling their staff they can exercise discretion......it appears their staff don't want to Alpha |
And thus it’s promulgated. But what does the crew do differently, in the real world, as a consequence of what’s promulgated?
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Absolutely nothing.
I would point out that there are some (Airservices and CASA) that genuinely believe that an operational decision is made based on the changed ARFF information. Is there decisions made at the dispatch stage based on an ARFF change? Same for the VSS penetrations....do performance engineers need to know this information? How else do they get it? :confused: Alpha |
Sounds more like a planning requirement, and in-flight up to the operators what to do. It would be more so an issue of whether you push back for departure without said RFF capability than whether you continue an approach. Maybe a crew could then assess they may not have full RFF accessibility may mean you evacuate earlier in certain circumstances rather than rely on fire services being able to extinguish the fire. After all if you land away from intended destination whilst on fire you take what external help you can, but you would most likely get everyone off ASAP rather than wait for help to arrive.
What if two A380s collide on taxi and catch fire, then that obviously exceeds the RFF capability. (I sincerely hope I just didn't make one of those airport risk assessors head explode with worry now) |
I put this in the same category as the now seemingly never ending barrage of UA ops / RPAS notams at major airports. The ones that are commercially licenced and having to post these notams are not the ones we are worried about.
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So the ARFF are in dispute with their employer over not providing enough resources for them to do their jobs, so apart from a strike in December, what better way to document how many times safety is reduced by the number of NOTAMS lowering the Cat level. The average pilot will not know or care how many Fire Fighters are on the shift, but if you push this into their faces, then it all becomes a slightly larger issue for the Employer to defend. If you accept a reduction in your operational workforce due to COVID, you had better have a way to get it back up to speed BEFORE the need arises for the very same people to be trained and operational. Don't ignore it because you are concentrating on how much money you saved!
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Originally Posted by kingRB
(Post 11334908)
I put this in the same category as the now seemingly never ending barrage of UA ops / RPAS notams.
Likewise, if I have a problem and need to land very soon at the closest major airport, the availability of RFF services isn’t going to stop me. |
Originally Posted by 43Inches
(Post 11334882)
Sounds more like a planning requirement, and in-flight up to the operators what to do. It would be more so an issue of whether you push back for departure without said RFF capability than whether you continue an approach. Maybe a crew could then assess they may not have full RFF accessibility may mean you evacuate earlier in certain circumstances rather than rely on fire services being able to extinguish the fire. After all if you land away from intended destination whilst on fire you take what external help you can, but you would most likely get everyone off ASAP rather than wait for help to arrive.
What if two A380s collide on taxi and catch fire, then that obviously exceeds the RFF capability. (I sincerely hope I just didn't make one of those airport risk assessors head explode with worry now) |
Originally Posted by parishiltons
(Post 11336295)
Or when an Airbus takes out a fire truck, thus instantly reducing the RFF category available to deal with itself!
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Well they operate out of airports that don’t normally have them, so there is a precedent.
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What do the various majors procedures say about landing or departing at various AD that have a degraded or zero RFF where there normally should be one? And their insurers? I am wondering if QF will really operate with zero RFF out of SY)ML etc, or whether it is just media talk? |
Good on them. Time to stand up. Pilots and passengers won’t be considering them just a ‘nice to have’ the day something happens.
you’ve got my support all the way. |
https://www.smh.com.au/national/airp...29-p5c25r.html
Australia’s major airlines are set to continue flying when airport firefighters walk off the job for four hours next Friday morning as part of strike action their union claimed would significantly disrupt travel schedules. United Firefighters Union (UFU) aviation branch secretary Wes Garrett said the strike from 6am to 10am on December 9 was a last resort as the union pushed for better pay and more staff to address a shortage it claims is compromising safety. “We understand that this will be extremely disruptive for Australia’s air travellers and aviation firefighters sincerely apologise for the inconvenience,” Garrett said. “But for over a year now, the safety of air travellers has been consistently put at risk each time they board an aircraft because we don’t have enough aviation firefighters to protect them if their plane crashes or catches fire, and that’s not acceptable.” Firefighters will strike at all 27 airports across Australia where they are stationed, including all capital city gateways. But Australia’s three major domestic airlines appear set to continue flying during the strike. A Virgin Australia spokesman said it would work with the government’s aviation manager, Airservices Australia, and other agencies to ensure it could operate safely and with minimal disruption during the planned strike action. Qantas declined to comment, but the airline and its budget arm Jetstar have not rescheduled any services during the four-hour strike and are still selling tickets on those flights. The Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) mandates that Airservices provides a set level of emergency services at major airports, including crew response times and having a certain number trucks available to respond to runway incidentsWhen asked on Tuesday, CASA could not say whether airlines could safely or legally operate during the strike.“We are currently working with all relevant parties to understand the impacts of this announcement,” a CASA spokesman said.Airport firefighters have been locked in wage negotiations with Airservices Australia for the past 12 months, and this month obtained Fair Work Commission approval to take strike action until January 1.About 100 firefighters have left the industry through a voluntary retirement scheme since October 2021, which Garrett said has resulted in more than 600 flights every month operating with insufficient fire fighting protection. A recent internal Airservices report released by the union shows “category reductions” – when a flight lands without the required emergency service provisions – have “increased significantly” since the redundancy round began. Until late 2021, about one in every 1000 flights operated without the appropriate level of emergency crews on hand. By July this year, that increased to 130 in every 1000 flights, the report says. But Airservices denied there was an airport firefighter shortage and said the union’s claims about safety were misleading and “designed to justify unnecessary industrial action to support an excessive wage claim”. “The [United Firefighters Union] should abandon its strike threat and return to the bargaining table,” an Airservices spokesperson said. “If they are so concerned about safety ... why are they increasing the safety risk by taking strike action and withdrawing (Aviation Rescue and Firefighters) altogether at Christmas time?” The UFU is pushing for a wage increases of 15 per cent over the next four years, which follows a 1 per cent increase in 2020 and 0 per cent last year. Australian Airports Association chief executive James Goodwin said it was “disappointing that industrial action could see disruption to travellers at a time when the sector is rebuilding confidence”. Although Airservices is allowed to vary aircraft category in accordance with approved procedures that manage temporary changes to category, its recent internal audit found increasing instances of non-compliance with CASA’s reporting framework and “discrepancies between regulations and Airservices processes”. |
Good on them. Time to stand up. Pilots and passengers won’t be considering them just a ‘nice to have’ the day something happens. If it is ops normal on strike morning two things become apparent… UFU are screwed and we really do not need ATC to broadcast the RFF status changes. https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....19d425dbc.jpeg |
I’ll bet that no one is going to stop and the RFF chaps are going to discover they are just a ‘nice to have’ rather than essential to aviation. Going without ARFF is OK right? Until you need them of course, then there'll be hell to pay. Then there's the heart attacks they've attended over the years, and the money they raise for charities, apart from that they do **** all right? |
Originally Posted by Icarus2001
(Post 11339583)
What about when something happens to a 100 seat jet operating at an airport without fire fighting? Are you okay with that?
If it is ops normal on strike morning two things become apparent… UFU are screwed and we really do not need ATC to broadcast the RFF status changes. https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....19d425dbc.jpeg no, I’m not ok with that. I’m not ok with anything happening to anyone. Hence why I said I support them, bloody well pay them what their worth and give them the staff they need. fark me, the moment someone talks about pilot pay you’re all about it…but the firies aren’t worth it? |
We shouldn’t fly if there is no ARFF service next week. Another dream’t up cost cutting exercise by the previous government. If, god forbid, the worst happens then I know our Fire Fighters will be there pronto. I fully support twisting ASA on this. If they want to save some money then design better SIDS and STARS ffs. You could save millions per year which would benefit all operators.
I bet if ASA downsize the fire fighting workforce it won’t be passed onto the airlines for a incurring a reduced capability yet give some bean counter with no skin in the game a bonus. |
Originally Posted by Troo believer
(Post 11339669)
We shouldn’t fly if there is no ARFF service next week. Another dream’t up cost cutting exercise by the previous government. If, god forbid, the worst happens then I know our Fire Fighters will be there pronto. I fully support twisting ASA on this. If they want to save some money then design better SIDS and STARS ffs. You could save millions per year which would benefit all operators.
I bet if ASA downsize the fire fighting workforce it won’t be passed onto the airlines for a incurring a reduced capability yet give some bean counter with no skin in the game a bonus. the UFU are trying to exploit the whole “firefighter” trusted people card and they don’t have enough staff, well if they think that having the extra staff spread over the 27 stations now makes them the super human service they think they are they are gravely mistaking. Having that 1 extra bod on the crew will make no operational difference. |
Originally Posted by goodonyamate
(Post 11339655)
fark me, the moment someone talks about pilot pay you’re all about it…but the firies aren’t worth it?
Now when some of our aviation brethren (who put their lives on the line for us, as the poor souls in Dubai and Lima recently demonstrate) stand up to ensure safe staffing levels we cry foul because our Friday morning plans are slightly disrupted. They’re only asking for an average 3.5% pay rise over the EBA, we’ll below inflation.
Originally Posted by red_dirt
(Post 11339677)
the UFU are trying to exploit the whole “firefighter” trusted people card
and they don’t have enough staff, well if they think that having the extra staff spread over the 27 stations now makes them the super human service they think they are they are gravely mistaking. Having that 1 extra bod on the crew will make no operational difference. However, an Airservices Australia risk assurance review dated September 9 and circulated by the union shows national available staffing levels were well below the required staffing levels due to “increases in long-term leave, sick leave and mental health impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic”. Secondly who are you to tell firefighters they don’t need extra crew? How would you like it if they said “I don’t think you need 4 pilots for ULH, 3, or even 2 will suffice”. |
Originally Posted by Lead Balloon
(Post 11334268)
It's so you'll try extra hard not to collide with the 97' AMSL tree that penetrates the VSS 2kms away from the ARP.
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Originally Posted by Hempy
(Post 11339721)
Omfg this actually made me laugh out loud
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon
(Post 11334268)
It's so you'll try extra hard not to collide with the 97' AMSL tree that penetrates the VSS 2kms away from the ARP.
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Fark me, the moment someone talks about pilot pay you’re all about it…but the firies aren’t worth it? The standard of comprehension on here is atrocious. |
I can’t understand for the life of me why any of you would say anything negative about their PIA. Governments and corporations have bullied employees for too long, and there’s a visible change happening. We should be embracing it.
not paying the fees? So if you take PIA one day you think your employer should stop paying you? If you want to see what it’s about, get in contact and go and spend a day with them. I have. The shifts, the training, the drills, and the risks. Dont forget they respond to Medicals as well. Just like pilots, they have skills and training they hope they don’t need, but are still required to demonstrate proficiency. This is not a job for some mug off the street. Comprehension? this thread should be nothing but support. Unbelievable. Same for the cabin crew at Q that have voted for PIA. Yeah sure, their action might cost me some hours. Big deal. If they can get what they want it’s just another chink in the armour that has surrounded ‘bargaining’. Yep, we’re on the outside of that armour as far as places like airservices, Q and V are concerned. |
Clearly it is an arse covering exercise. If you crash, everyone burns to death due to no RFF coverage and the Airport can say it is all your fault as they ‘informed you their was no RFF coverage’ your honour!
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Originally Posted by DROPS
(Post 11340069)
Not the brightest bulb on the tree are you?
Not talking about the employees being docked - talking about NavCharges not being paid for RFF)ATC that is nor provided by Airservices. Hit them in the hip pocket to make them employ enough people to provide the service they are supposed to, in their monopoly environment. pilot (service provider) takes PIA. Doesn’t get paid. Cries like a baby about employer and how unfair it is. if it could be done and worked as you said, then sure. Otherwise….probably ‘not so bright’ |
From Neville's SMH article earlier-
CASA could not say whether airlines could safely or legally operate during the strike.“We are currently working with all relevant parties to understand the impacts of this announcement,” a CASA spokesman said. So the regulator doesn't know the rules they wrote? |
Originally Posted by DROPS
(Post 11340134)
I wish the ARFF all the best in their efforts to hold ASA to account on staffing levels. ATC have been trying to do the same thing since around 2006, but to little avail.
The RWNJ media and the Joyce sycho-fans will frame this through their own self interested greedy perverted lens. But anyone in Aviation who has been on the prickly end of the multiple outsourced subsidiary A scale through Z scale pineapple will know the truth of the matter we are in furious agreement. |
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