Qantas Project Sunrise Airbus order 2 May 2022?
 

The Guardian

"Qantas is set to announce a landmark order for Airbus A350-1000 jets capable of non-stop flights from Sydney to London as part of a wider deal with the European planemaker, according to sources.The multibillion-dollar order, to be unveiled in a Sydney airport hangar on Monday, brings the Australian carrier closer to launching record-breaking direct flights of nearly 20 hours on the lucrative “kangaroo route” by mid-2025...

...An Airbus-owned A350-1000 was flying on Sunday from Toulouse to Perth, tracking service FlightRadar24 showed.

Qantas, which has said it would make a significant announcement on Monday about the future of its network, declined to comment. Airbus also declined to comment."

Isn't it slightly ironic that an empty 1000 is flying to perth and not direct to Sydney (presuming it will head straight there after perth)?

https://www.flightradar24.com/AIB151/2bae7b4f

F-WMIL

Indeed...It's only 30 years since Qantas took their new 747-400 non-stop from London to Sydney. You would have thought if tomorrows announcement is about the A350 & LHR-SYD non-stop that Airbus wold at least be able to do Toulouse-Sydney non-stop to show off their new toy.

Guess they have their reasons. Maybe it's to placate der fuhrer so he doesn't think he's going to lose his precious QF9/QF10 services out of Perth?

It’ll be a few more than a dozen 350’s......

On Sunday, the West Australian newspaper said, without citing sources, that the Qantas order would include 12 A350s, 20 A321XLRs and 20 A220s as well as purchase rights for 106 more airplanes spread among the different types.

An airBaltic A220 was parked in Sydney on Sunday, FlightRadar24 showed. That destination is not on a normal route for the European carrier. Australia has no A220 operators at present.

According to Executive Traveller magazine, QF is planning to install 369 seats in their A350-1000s, across FOUR classes. Other airlines that operate the A350-1000, such as CX and QR, have around 330 seats in TWO classes (QR) or THREE classes (CX). If that number is correct, the QF aircraft will be very cramped down the back, given that First takes up a lot of space for relatively few seats.

Qantas to launch Project Sunrise flights to London, New York tomorrow

I read in another article that is was 270 or so.

That sounds far more reasonable!

That will be a lovely sector- I remember when working for them being up all night to young kids- driving 3 hours to Sydney then killing time at work then flying just to Bangkok getting off feeling knackered- now it’s going to be a 20 hour flight direct to London with 11 hour time zone change- couple of nights there and same sector home.

QF royalty is likely boarding the plane in Perth so they can have a jolly.

Having QF staff depart from France was likely a bit risky Covid wise.

A whole heap of fanfare for something 3 plus years away, can only imagine the farewell party he will give himself on his own departure, which might I add, when the heck is he leaving again?

Thats very likely,they will be able to slap each other on the back for 4 hrs & convince themselves what a great job they have done.
They can also check out how many curtains they will need for each aircraft to hide the exhausted crew from the public's eye.

Qantas to place largest order in its 102-year history, targeting 150 Airbus jet

Article by Geoffrey Thomas in The West Australian

"While designed for 369 passengers the A350 will only carry about 270 for the ultra-long-range flights and will be the roomiest of any Qantas jet.
According to the insiders, the configuration of the A350 will be four classes and economy passengers will get a 34-inch (86.4cm) seat pitch, rather than the normal 31 inches (79cm).
And the economy seats will be wider than those on the 787 and 747.
The Qantas A350 economy seats will be 18 inches (45.7cm) wide – almost an inch (2.54cm) wider than those on the 787.
First class, business class and premium economy will all be “significantly” enhanced with more legroom in premium economy, closer to Air New Zealand’s industry high 42 inches (106.7cm)."

Oh there you go,GT in the know again.
I guess he was on the phone to Alan this morning & advised him what seating was required.
Im sure his face will pop up at the Airbus hosted cocktail party in Sydney tomorrow evening.

Yeah but the 7+ hrs in the bunk does help an awful lot. The DRW-LHR and PER-LHR flights are much nicer on my body than the 3 man back of the clock “short” 8-10hr hops from Asia I used to do..

GT, old mate, I wouldn’t get too excited about an apparent 150 jet order. I’m old enough to remember this. You can guarantee if it’s aeroplanes for mainline, it will be as few as possible.


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....65a0ddef2.jpeg

I remember that going overhead me shortly after takeoff from Heathrow. Gosh, 30 years ago. Incidentally, there was a fascinating article once on the web by the chief steward on the flight about the catering provision etc. Can't find it any more - anyone know where it is now ?

I also seem to remember an early A340-300 doing nonstop Toulouse-Auckland-Toulouse, eastbound throughout.

At least I'll be pleased they haven't gone for a 787 "Squashliner". Doing an overnight trip in one just before the lockdown, in economy, was the most uncomfortable trip I have ever done.

I believe the record is held by a 777-200LR that flew non-stop from HKG to LHR, eastbound, in 23 hours. That was in 2005.

Indeed, I did 2 trips between Oz and London in economy on the 78. It felt every bit of that 17hr journey, I can tell you. Interestingly I didn't feel as tired as I normally do once I got off that tube. Perhaps the 6k alt air?

I wonder what the ticket prices will be? One 20-hr flight uses considerably more fuel than two 10hr ones. Also, where is the demand for this over a cheaper flight that breaks the journey in two and is only a couple of hours (10%) more elapsed time in total, or gives a chance for a longer slip to acclimatise? How much payload will the aircraft actually be able to carry compared with its nominal capacity?

The longest sector I’ve ever done was just under 18hrs and I felt like crap at the end of it, and I had a bed!

I reckon that the Irishman is eventually targeting Syd to Syd non-stop with no jet lag.

This is only one side of the cost equation. More fuel, but less airframe hours, less cycles for any cycle-related maintenance, etc. I'm sure the long haul carriers know the numbers, but traditionally nonstops have always expanded with the capability of aircraft to overfly previous intermediate stops.

Furthermore, as I have described many times, cost and revenue are not directly connected. Revenue is driven by what passengers will pay you, not by how much it costs you to provide it.

I’m guessing the reason for the night time arrival would be the QF decals placed on the aircraft for its grand entrance in the morning.

With todays winds, and the configuration it flew in, they could have flown LHR-AKL with OHA as an alternate.

I would need to check the maths, but I would not be so sure about that. Yes, fuel consumption is highest at takeoff, and is a direct function of takeoff weight, but the equation is definitely not 1:1. Also the 20 hr sector needs to be compared to two 10.5 hr to allow for another approach/landing & takeoff. But the big savings is doing away with the interim airport landing and handling fees which is a considerable portion of total cost. On the revenue side I'm not so sure how it will work out. As a rule of thumb, an airline can charge a premium for a non-stop service (or rather competitors with a connection need to offer a discount), however on such a long route where the time saving is marginal, I don't know to what extent will this work. I for one would rather pay less and spend a night in a Bangkok hotel to break it into two shorter legs. The key is how much of the premium traffic will they manage to capture to fill F/C. I have taken QF first, and the experience was quite disappointing in comparison with what the competition has to offer.

How many cabin crew will they use ? Will they need 3 sets of flight crew also ?.

I guess they will work out something with the regulator. The longest continuous duty I’ve done was just under 28hrs last year under an alleviation.

It’s non-linear and by the time you get out to the 20th hour of flying, you have had to carry the fuel to do that for 19hrs, burning a significant amount to do that. For a given L/D ratio, there is a point eventually where adding more fuel doesn’t measurably increase the range, similar to the rocket equation’s relationship to velocity. It’s an informed guess, but I’d expect to use at least 40% more fuel on a 20hr ULH sector than two 10.5hr ones with the same payload; at ~USD1,200/mt that’s going to be significant. Also, you might save in cycle-denominated engineering costs but you’re going to work the engines harder, especially taking off with likely very little or no derate.

In Perth

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....9c1ccca20.jpeg

The A343 flight was done during the Le Bourget Airshow in 1993

The expectation is that they'll still use a Captain, F/O and 2 S/Os as they currently do on Ultra Longhaul services such as Perth/Darwin-London and Dallas-Sydney.

There was a push by some of the Pilot representatives to at least include a second F/O, rather than second S/O, to allow the 'landing' crew to optimise their rest prior to descent but this has been deemed unnecessary……by those who will rarely if ever have to do it.

Not only a 20 to 21 hour comparison, but there's ground time as well, it seems impossible nowadays to turn a long-haul widebody in less than 1.5 hours, so now 22.5 hours. You also need a commercially sensible intermediate stop bang on the Great Circle track to achieve this. If you are doing passenger work at the intermediate stop it's then a challenge to balance loads equally, every time, on both legs, so some revenue wastage there.

No, it is going via Perth so that AJ can get the Network, Cobham, Alliance and VARA chaps to put in a price to fly the shiny jet.

When did that get canned? The ability for the Captain and at least one of the FOs to get the rest they wanted was the only thing that made 20 plus hr duties even vaguely palatable or acceptable from a fatigue mitigation standpoint.

Oh God, he is such a BS artist tool.

"About 270" is not what it will carry, it is nowhere near 238 - which is what it will ACTUALLY be configured for - he can't even get the figure correct. It nearly makes me vomit every time I see this dolt's face on TV with the banner saying "Aviation Expert".

Wouldn't know an aeroplane or an aviation fact if it slowly surfaced in his morning porridge.

Surely JQ will end up 320/321xlr and send the 78’s to mainline?

More chance being sold vs handing over. They did try to sell 1/4 of the 788's back in 2019. When backlogs for big twins start to bite again in a few years, then I would expect them to be flogged off for a premium again. The next year or two is all about taking advantage the travel boom, then it's back to business when the red ink starts to appear again around the network.

Doubtful that JQ will go into the 2030's and beyond with big twins. A321 will do a whole heap of Asia, Aussie Pilots, Asia CC. That last bit seems to always be the most important bit.

12 A350 frames would be about 100ish Captains. Any speculation how senior these slots would likely go? ie don't hold out if your number isn't < 300

A321 commands could be enticing for senior WB FOs (or those not wanting to endure the dodgy seat back on the 73) or even those 65+ bidding back with an easier conversion compared to 73.

Will be very interesting to see ticket prices on these flights. Having only 238 pax is going to really test the economics of this service,the outlay for this aircraft is massive & with fuel prices like they are now its going to be a interesting exercise to convince the punters to pay a premium so they can save a couple of hours to get from point A to point B.

Jetstar comms said today the 20 A321xlrs are destined for Jetstar from next year.

Ollie. They are 2 different orders for A321xlr's.

I've also heard that they are different engine types. JQ CFM and QF P&W