Quarantine Hypocrisy
 

Given that this is a pilot forum, I’d like to open a thread dedicated to the confusing, illogical and hypocritical nature of the legislation and rules governing quarantine for international pilots domiciled in Australia.

At present there is a dog’s breakfast of rules determining what quarantine requirements a returning crew must complete prior to being allowed out into the wider community depending on which state you preside in.

It’s generally accepted that upon return to Australia, you may complete either 14 days of home quarantine, if you can meet the distancing rules, or otherwise 14 days in a hotel or until your next duty. You have to complete a pcr COVID test every 7 days and on day 10 prior to being released on day 14. Obviously testing negative.

At the moment Queensland Health has determined that crew landing back in Darwin after completion of an international repatriation sector are to quarantine at HWS for 14 days prior to operating an empty aircraft back to Brisbane. No other state requires this. Crew from other states are permitted to home quarantine instead. Remember that the crew are not gallivanting around overseas having a fun time getting boozed up in quant English pubs or a German Beer garden. No, they remain confined to their hotel room for the whole duration of their stay. Masks and PPE is worn to and from the aircraft with minimal contact afforded between themselves and the general public. A significant amount of crew are now fully vaccinated which adds to the illogical position of the authorities in the police state of Australia. I’m not across what happens in WA but could only imagine.

Added to this with the advent of the Tasman bubble throws further fuel on the flames of stupidity. Air New Zealand crew whom operate to a high risk area ,which is currently the USA, are upon return, required to quarantine in a designated hotel for 2 days only and with a negative pcr test are sent on their merry way to mingle and pollute the general public whom could be Aussies having a grand old time in NZ. My God this has to stop immediately. Heaven forbid that the virus could be bought back into Oz via Kiwi crew whom have not quarantined to OZ standards. WTF is going on? Half their luck for the ANZ crew.

The toll the draconian, punitive quarantine policies of Australia are damming and a joke. I’ve lost faith with this country. Perhaps it’s our convict roots but is this heavy handed approach necessary. Pilots are trying to earn a living but listening to the lucky few that are stood up for one month in four, it’s a poisoned chalice. For the poor buggers in continual quarantine for months on end, it’s taking its toll. It sucks the life out of you.

Could someone way smarter than myself point me to the science of such nonsense. I wonder if Anna or McClown are aware of this nefarious loophole that’s apparent with our Kiwi cousin bros. All could be lost unless we shut the borders forthwith. And why is it that the guards at Howard Springs are armed? What the hell have we allowed our country to become?

For crew from other countries we’d like to hear what your governments require for quarantine purposes.
May the discussion continue. And if you’re not a pilot or a flight attendant, we don’t need your shrill chicken little hyperbole.

The covid 19 industry is now pretty much fully fledged in Australia.

No way thats going to change any time soon. This event is the bureaucrats olympics!

The harder everything is made, the more relevent these types become.

Meanwhile, Diggers get locked out of ANZAC DAY services while 80000 attend a football game. Thats a national disgrace of the highest order.

The common thread?. As always. Money.

MCD.

800,000 at a football game?! Must have been a big stadium.

...and yes. Quarantine sucks. Good luck trying to instigate change. We’ve been trying for months

Or alternatively, HQ workers and COVID ward staff don't need to isolate after their shifts and free to go about their homes and community as they see fit. Flight Crews on the other hand are treated like diseased animals and locked up. That is where the hypocrisy lies.

Fuel-Off :ok:

Try the United Kingdom for nonsensical quarantine rules. Enter the UK from a red or amber area and undergo quarantine but, as you are flightcrew, you are allowed to leave quarantine to go to work. Then you can fly back to the very place you’ve just had to quarantine from but upon your return - because you are now entering as crew - you have now been cleansed of potential COVID and the slate is wiped clean, no further quarantine period. And no I am not making this up.

Rediculous. Where’s the unions.?

This is where the joke belongs. Quarantine staff from all around Australia can roam free after mixing with potential COVID cases. Granted they are PPEd up, just like we are when on duty overseas.
This bureaucratic Olympics moment is spot on. They won’t lose face over this. Science and stats don’t matter to these people, it’s all about building their empires and protecting their own. They have no skin in this game, it doesn’t affect them unless it starts hurting their bottom dollar.

So you are having a crack at NZ for being to lax whilst having a go at Aus for being too strict?

One word...India

Troo Believer you asked fro some science:

We have a range of vaccines and some are very questionable but the two mRNA vaccines - Pfizer and Moderna - seem not only to stop serious disease but also to provide sterility ie stop the individual passing on illness by reducing the viral load in the nose. The data is coming out day by day but in healthcare I feel safe based on the science although like you I am told what to do by politicians who seem to ignore the science.

In the UK we are interested in how Australia and NZ will ever open up and save their economies given recent statements by your politicians and the slow rate of vaccination.

PM me and I will find some data for you - IMHO if aircrew are vaccinated with 2 doses of mRNA and have 2 negative PCR tests then they are safe. We need 2 tests not one due to false negatives but as long as they are done by a trained healthcare worker and not self administered they could be done an hour apart. The PCR just checks you arent contaminated. If you want to be really pedantic you could insist on a shower, change of clothes and leaving luggage airside for 72 hours but there was a non peer reviewed paper that found only 1 in 100 cases arose from touching contaminated surfaces, the rest being due to aerosol transmission.

Far from it. What NZ does is totally practical. Just pointing out the glaring stupidity of Australia’s rules. We stay in the same hotel in LAX. What’s the difference?

The fact that there are so many inconsistencies, from country to country and from state to state proves the Governments have no idea. They just slashed passenger numbers returning from India to 30%. What quantifiable data did they use to come up with 30%? Why not 22% or 71%? Because these idiots are making it up as they go. Some research has shown masks don’t work. Some Vaccines are only 30% effective due to new and evolving strains. Did they pull the trigger on vaccines to quickly? Why are COVID numbers escalating worldwide when vaccines have been handed out for at least a month or more?

I am not a conspiracy theorist nor am I against vaccinations. But the absolute lack of consistency worldwide simply proves that they do not know what they are doing, otherwise it would be the same action everywhere.

Seriously, governments couldn't even run a raffle, so how could people possibly trust and put faith in them with mitigating COVID? All they have done is fail to stem the COVID spread and killed the worlds economy. How’s that working for everyone??

Troo Believer,
I sympathise with you as your obviously international, but the whole system is just an unmitigated disaster even for a domestic pilot like me.
Ive put up with 1 year of this crap state by state disaster system that changes daily, gone through seven 2 week quarantine directions, now up to 36 COVID tests and ridiculous and completely inept rules that are all based on land based people, not pilots or cabin crew going through most States weekly. The best I had was arriving into SA after doing simulator in Melbourne during the height of their lockdown last year. SA police asked, have you had a COVID test in the last 7 days? , Me , yeah 6 days ago in QLD before I went to VIC for simulator. SA police officer, right! Your good to go! Lol...The whole thing is a joke and I can only imagine the shambles that would involve international flights, it would be double layered crap.

Paragraph, I think you’ll find cOVID numbers escalating worldwide are due to the vaccination rates of particular countries, and when India gets involved, it’s population is so huge it skews the worldwide figures...

Sorry edited as wasn’t clear, what I meant to say that you will find the infection rates are dramatically falling in the higher vaccinated countries. India just skews the worldwide result with its massive population and inadequate healthcare system.

Thanks Radgirl but I’ve read a ****load of science on the subject. It was a rhetorical question. There is no science. We know that. The Tasman bubble illustrates that beautifully. 14 days compared with 2 days quarantine. Dutton should revoke the bubble immediately and fine anyone having fun in NZ. After all that is the Australian way.
On the subject of ATC being moved to Melbourne. I’ve got a great idea. Outsource it to the FAA? Double the traffic with half the radio calls. End of rant.

Anyone care to take a guess as to what was behind the two lockdowns BNE had?

I’ll give you all a hint. It wasn’t flight crew!

A big part of this problem is the senior public servants running the health industry and its responses to the pandemic have been shown to be quite wanting. They are so used to just maintaining the status quo and getting the tax payer to fund it. When something comes out of left centre field they... well... try to ignore it hoping it will go away and be forgotten about.

The health system could do with a huge upheaval. The levels of hypocrisy, inconsistent measures, unnecessary risks, and poor handling of new challenges will just continue to plop along like a dead body rolling downhill.

Anyone want to have a guess at the leading suspect for the Northern beaches was...

It seems some people just don’t want to see. Australia and NZ don’t have a population dying from a hundred different things because there is no oxygen left for their hospitals or running out of places to put the dead.

Yeah it’s sucks, it’s a one in a hundred year pandemic, deal with it and be thankful you are in a country that has done the hard yards were you don’t have to roll a 20kg O2 tank down the street in a futile bid to keep your parents alive.

I got retrenched because of I t after 30 years of flying. Adapt and overcome

A US based crew member apparently.
Sorry to hear of your retrenchment. The fact remains however that there are massive inconsistencies across the nation and NZ that need addressing. None of it passes the pub test. How does our governments refute this?
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/25/w...to-europe.html

If you’re suggesting it was Aussie flight crew you’d be wrong.

If you’re suggesting it was flight crew from another nation you may be closer to the mark.

Troo Believer - Can I guess that you have only just returned to flying?

I was lucky enough to have still been operating continuously through the last 14 months, domestically and internationally. This hypocrisy and unthought out state and federal quarantine idiocy hasn't just started..... I could bore you for hours with COVID tales from the last 14 months, Clamping down on us in some areas and other you could fit the QE2 inside with room to spare.

I kept relatively quiet at the time (and still do) as I felt some survivor guilt and I'm sure that many of you would have rather put up what we were enduring than been on job keeper...

No incorrect. Lucky for you. Whatever your circumstances though it doesn’t make it right when there are significant inconsistencies. If you’re happy with the status quo so be it. I trust Alan rang you to thank you for your service.

Never said it did make it right and never said I was happy with it. But complaining on Pprune of my plight wasn't going to help last year.

I went other ways - twice I even got as far as the Government solicitors who draft the legislation to point out the omissions that were landing us in Q having done less than things that would exempt you from Q. It took 3 months in one case but the new directions covered it.

For most of last year I was keeping a matrix to stay abreast of all state/territory ever changing Directions and we regularly fired it back to the Police and health departments when they interpreted things on a whim towards our crews against their own advice.

Alan? Nice try but, no.

I think compressor stall works in even colder climates than Alan's office. So not QF.

Fortress Australia has screwed the few to protect the many. It's economy is doing well, unemployment is going ok. And that's where the big picture stops. In comparison to life in other parts of the world it is still the lucky country. And I say that as an Ozzie locked on the outside.

Unfortunately the working life of the international pilot (and domestic with the way states shut down) is of no consequence. If qf don't do the flying, someone from outside will The public and travelers don't care. I don't endorse this, but this where Australia is at.

There is lots of real world data now supporting the use of vaccines. And until the major population of the world have been jabbed, there won't be change. And that is taking a long time to achieve.

But, on our network, where quarentine is no longer an issue, our aircraft are full. So I see this as evidence as a strong rebound in travel when things finally open up.

I only hope that those still waiting to be recalled can wait it out.

And troo believer I agree with everything you say about the inconsistent way it's all being managed. But those making the decisions weren't the ones we saw do well in class at school.

All I will say, what is happening in Oz is by far not the worst out there.

Some countries want you to test and quarantine for departing and landing at the same airport, like a 2hr air test. Literally pulling up at the same stand you departed from.

Don’t see a lot of science in this, probably been tested over 100 times, fully vaccinated however I’m considered more of a threat than
the people at immigration that never get tested however in contact with unknown passengers every day.

Some quality journalism suggests CoVID can "creep" from one hotel room to another? By creep do they men shoddy adherence to procedures in quarantine hotels?

Troo believer, for once I agree with you!!

Australia has truly lost its way with the various restrictions in place for quarantine. I can’t comment on the rules for Oz based flight crew, but I can certainly tell you that what arriving crew experience is also following the same inane path.

I’ll add my experience though from the last 12 months in the UAE.

We started with 14 day home quarantine after every flight or until your next duty. For those is us that continued flying, that meant a continuous quarantine period that lasted around 3 months until the rules changed. During this time if you were unlucky enough to be on a flight with a confirmed case, you were removed from duty for 14 days and also required to take a PCR test at the end. We were also given a PCR test at the end of every duty.

Approximately 3 months in the rules changed and the PCR test on arrival was dropped. The home quarantine requirement was also removed. For the “confirmed case on board”, we still had to isolate for 14 days, however the PCR test at the end was removed.

Sometime around October the “confirmed case on board” rules changed again. Now we were notified but only required to monitor for symptoms.

Throughout this time restrictions on layovers have been in place. Most destinations we are not allowed to leave the hotel. However in your case, if you believe 100% of QF/ANZ crew follow this on every layover, I have a bridge to sell you..... If restrictive rules exist, I guarantee you someone isn’t following them.

We also had requirements for PPE since March last year, including on layovers.

To be honest, I’ve been quite happy with the progression of the various rules here. Things have changed regularly but appear to be based on new information or actual available data. Unlike some of the pedantic BS in Australia. Plus this country is actually able to figure out how to administer a vaccine, so almost all crew are vaccinated (plus a significant portion of society and airline families).

Just to add, the rule changes at the beginning of 2021 for international crew on layovers, are another example of what you speak about. Please tell me what benefit there is in testing crew on a 24 hour layover??? Especially when the results can take 24-48 hours to come back. There has been flight crew ON THE AIRCRAFT, about to board passengers, that then receive a positive result. The threat is almost 99% guaranteed to be asymptomatic and is ABOUT TO LEAVE AUSTRALIA!!! But the rules require all the crew to leave the aircraft and undergo 14 days quarantine in Australia.

All I can really say is HAHAHAHA and good luck. And I’m Australian!!

Elimination (of logic) Strategy
 

I believe the overriding problem in Australia is the very thing "we" are most proud of - our Elimination Strategy. This will be our downfall going forward.

Politicians with the aid of the media have hammered the concept of zeros, double zeros etc so hard into our skulls that even seeing the number "1" sends citizens rushing to the shops for toilet paper, fears of city wide lockdowns and 10-20k ppl rushing to be COVID swabbed.
This concept of absolute zero risk is unsustainable and has moved the country head first into a brick wall.

Who wants to be the one to relax any rules in this environment?

Using COVID logic, Easter Weekend should be cancelled. If it had been cancelled, we would have saved 20 lives.

Differences between Aus and NZ
 

Those wondering why differences exist between Australian and NZ rules - just look at the media ownership in NZ (or specifically lack of ownership by Newscorpse). What possible incentive would any (particularly labour) state government have to apply any judgement to practicality of risk based outcomes on crew quarantine (manageble when you consider recent WA and NSW Northern Beaches) when any perceived lack of absolute control will result in a media campaign akin to what Victoria saw last year (totally unmanaged - and from the same organisation that actively promotes the "let it rip" brigade)?

I’m not so concerned or wound up about myself being isolated.
What gets to me, as per the thread title, is the hypocrisy.

In short, there are arguably people who are at an equal or greater risk of catching/spreading it than compared to us flight crew, and they are not required to isolate yet we are.
Now if you isolated those people I’d complain less.

I’m not complaining about the hypocrisy in an attempt to get out of quarantine; but if they made it fair and let us not quarantine (like the equally or higher risk staff) then I wouldn’t say no.

Par for the course for quality journalism some would say!.... before a mid life career change I worked in commercial airconditioning, including some hotels and hospitals. To make them as energy efficient as possible (which has been a major influence in he past 20 years) typically just the rooms themselves are airconditioned with the absolute least amount of fresh air introduced via an central outside air unit. The introduced air returns and relieves down the corridors (which are not air conditioned at all).

It's possibly the worst design for preventing the spread of a respiratory virus. The virus load will leak down the hallways continuously and also build up in the room so when the door to the corridor is opened sent a big parcel of infected air down the common areas. It's surprising we haven't had more outbreaks.

A better setup would be to have a purpose built facility (or two) to safely process international arrivals, big enough to handle as many people that want to come here. Plenty of flying for both international and domestic.

The federal government really needs to show some leadership... the state by state approach will only lead to a dogs breakfast.

Koizi is absolutely correct. The majority of the voting public (who, funnily enough, are not international aircrew) will not accept anything other than ZERO cases.
You can't really blame them, it is something that people can be proud of. It just makes life difficult for those of us (the minority) that need to travel overseas as part of our work.
We've "done so well" that we've made a rod for our own backs...

Are you seriously suggesting sending everyone to a facility like Nauru? Even more so where in a few months time most of the western world will have reached herd immunity. That policy is inhumane in itself. Literally no other country is doing this. All for the sake of 1 case that slipped through the net. This Covid jingoism really needs to stop to be honest.

Where did you get that from?

He’s talking about Australia.

NSW alone would require a facility that can house 6,000 people given the NSW arrival cap of 3,00 a week. Add workers and you’re talking a facility of 7,500-8,500 people in a Covid safe way. With 410 leaving each day and 410 arriving each day that’s a very, very significant logistical issue to sort out for one facility.

I said like Nauru - where people are held like second class citizens. If Aus decided to hold people in these desert camps, it would massively hurt it’s international standing.

You're overlooking the FACT that a fair proportion of the returnees have spent their time overseas living in quarters that would make a desert quarantine camp look like a Kempinski penthouse.
For many of them, two weeks in a Mercure quarantine lockup will be the first and only time in their lives that they spend time in a star rated hotel.

It's 2 weeks FFS. Not a life sentence.

In addition to which, I doubt that our "international standing" would be hurt by one iota, let alone massively.

The problem with rules is too many people forget the intent while flat out trying to find an exemption because they are special.

Quarantine is here and it's here to stay. It's sad the government hasn't even considered reducing hotel Quarantine to 7 days and possibly doing the remainder 7 days at home. Look at the stat's, 95% of all positive cases test positive in the first 7 days after exposure. The few that get through the cracks will be under home isolation.
There needs to be a path to open borders eventually.

So, you've been to Nauru and that's a first hand observation? Or are you repeating the drivel that comes out of the mouths of some do-gooders?
At least the people that arrive in the country to go to the quarantine facilities will have done so legally. On the other hand ..............


If you believe that then I imagine you believe pigs can fly too.

And finally, just so you've got the facts, the Victorian State Government announced today that they'll build a dedicated quarantine facility not 40 kms from Melbourne. Now, even by the wildest of imaginations, that's not the desert.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-...lity/100103308

From across the Tasman for aircrew quarantine rules in New Zealand. Have a read of this compared with Australian crew requirements. Correct me if I’m wrong but do Air New Zealand crew have to quarantine at all if they fly to Singapore or Hong Kong and back to NZ? It appears not but please enlighten me. For flights to LA or San Fran 2 days and a negative test. Not 14. Can anybody else see this as a major flaw in the bubble? Perhaps Aussies are just more diseased than our Kiwi bros.
https://www.health.govt.nz/system/fi...al_interim.pdf