Seniority
 

In the post Covid-19 environment there will more than likely be a significant reduction in airline pilot numbers. Thousands of aircrew are currently stood down without pay, no doubt pondering where their seat will be when the music stops. Ideally for those pilots lucky enough to have a company to go back to, the redeployment criteria should follow in order of seniority. At least across individual fleets.

In the past I have seen highly experienced, and more senior crew cast aside in the name of the “greater good”. At the same time I witnessed the ugly side of self preservation as one group turned on another.

The rules of the government’s Jobkeeper scheme regarding returning to duty specifies a reasonable test for employees brought back to work against those who are still stood down. The scope of this test isn’t meant to sort out a post lockdown employment structure, but it’s probably a good place to look for the first signs of any irregularities.

In the meantime talk to your Union. In the coming months there is going to be enormous pressure from industry to have greater “flexibility” in the rehiring process.

NZ appears to be going down the Seniority path.

Closer to home, Virgin Group, not so much. The Tiger example in Feb pre Corona, of axing fleet specific Pilots (Airbus) vs The List, well it sort of outlines their intentions on this topic going forward.

Whatever works out cheaper for the company is how it will play out.

Cadets/SO are clearly at the bottom of many lists. However, with operators investing millions in these schemes, getting rid of them all makes no financial sense. They will probably be with the company for the next few decades. So if Jetstar and Virgin pull back a large majority of the widebody operation permanently, I don’t think your 3000 hour FO on the A320 or 737 will be affected. Investing millions in retraining 787 Pilots onto the Airbus, compared to just letting them go, and retraining nobody. Sad stuff, but further demonstrates that The List, is only good for Command upgrades.

Experience equals sweet FA.

There is probably going to be large consequences in terms of lack of Pilots from next decade onwards, as many will walk away, many take early retirements, many won’t even contemplate the industry, and the world starts booming again.

KRUSTY, your post in itself is showing an ugly side of self preservation. In these 'unprecedented' times, how about as pilots we look at thing a little differently?

Why don't those 55+ year old senior captains give up the 40ft retirement yacht and retire a couple of years early with plenty in property, super etc?

Those at the bottom of the seniority lists are the ones that will suffer the most in this crisis. Most have young families, fresh mortgages and started flying at a young age with little/no other skills.

I'm sure, for example, of the roughly 400 pilots at the bottom of the QF list (no, not all cadets), most of them left high seniority positions at domestic/regional carriers, some within the group...no one could have predicted this when they made the move to the 'safest job' in Australia. Their old positions have already been filled and there is not likely to be any work in aviation in the next 3-5 years.

Maybe it's time for the top of the list to make some sacrifices for the bottom, instead of topping up their 7 figure defined benefit super.

I'm a firm beliver that seniority is the best/worst system, but we're all on the same team, let's not throw the bottom half under the bus.

You mean those on the gravy train should make a sacrifice for the junior pilots? Don't make me laugh!

They will argue they sacrificed enough in the EBA 10 vote. :hmm:

Many of us near the twilight of our careers are not on defined benefit, we are looking at substantial losses in our super accounts right now coupled with an almost certain loss of at least one year of income. We don’t have the time left to recoup whereas the younger, more junior have many years ahead of them to build their retirement nest egg. And no, I don’t have a 40 foot boat, no boat at all in fact.

As far as the Virgin Wide Body EBA is concerned it explicitly states that NO Narrowbody Pilot shall be displaced due to a reduction in the Widebody fleet. However if Virgin keep a Widebody fleet (assuming they survive keeping one of them, if any) then it states Pilots shall be made redundant in order of seniority regardless of fleet. That could be a source of conflict:\. This of course assumes Virgin continues in some form:confused:

The truth is seniority and last in first out worked in government run carriers with simplified fleet structures. In the harsh world of modern economics (accentuated by post Corona airline economics) it's unfeasible.
In most airlines I'd imagine the most senior pilots will gravitate toward widebody long haul aircraft. However in a post Corona world these aircraft will probably be needed the least. So if LIFO is to be followed you are then faced with a situation of retraining the most senior pilots onto the smaller fleets, and making the most junior pilots redundant. It'd be a huge expense and one that cash poor post covid airlines could hardly afford. There is already some legal precedence for redundancy outside of seniority. Most likely however pilots of fleets who aren't flying will just be stood down indefinitely. No expensive redundancy payout for the airlines, and then those pilots simply return to flying when there's work available or retire.

I have to disagree with you on this point. There are inherent risks with leaving a senior position in one airline to go to the bottom of another seniority list. It was part of the decision making that lead me to stay put, as nice as the QF conditions may have been.

Coronavirus itself was unforseen, however downturns in the industry given its cyclical nature certainly are not.

Another factor to consider is mandatory retirement. Can’t speak for VA or JQ, but at QF, the number of pilots reaching 65 increases dramatically in a year or so, and remains between 75-100 per year for the next decade.

some LHers hitting 65 this year or next may have planned on bidding to the 737 this training year. Unfortunately for them, there is no ‘right’ just because you are 65. No vacancy, no slot. You have to retire as you can ‘no longer fulfil the requirements of the role. No CR payout.

this will affect quite a number I’m sure.

anyone who thinks redundancy (fingers crossed not needed anywhere!) will be done on last in first out is kidding themselves.

Remeber not all seniority systems are the same.

Some have protections against displacing other pilots, and some dont.

As much as I am affected by pilots who wont budge from the top, I have no grievance against them. Who knows, I may be in thier position one day and my own circumstances may also mean staying on for whatever reason.

This topic has been running in the Terms and Endearment board.

A very relevant scenario is Jetstar 787 pilots, most of whom will be in the top half of the seniority list, and many I would imagine towards the top of the list.

How does that work if the 787 is grounded or significantly clipped ? - I can't imagine a low cost operator looking forward to spending millions on re-training 787 pilots back on to the A320. Do they retrench redundant 787 pilots or from the bottom of the list?

Everyone will eventually do, whatever is best for themselves. You can see that amongst the numerous threads all on the same repetitive topics that have been posted on here in recent weeks.

A very one eyed view of the situation. I read into that, you are low on the seniority list.
not all 55 plus have 40 foot retirement yatchs, not only young people have young kids and mortgages.
One thing the younger do have is plenty of time (working life) to make up for the short fall they may feel now.

You have hit the nail on the head on this one.

The chief pilot has said in a webinar that they will follow the RIN process "at an appropriate time". What that means is that you will stay stood down for as long as we need until training positions become available.

This was followed up by HR confirming that there is no time limit on how long they can stand you down for.

The company wont be following the RIN/redundancy process anytime soon because that will burn a lot of cash. And right now, cash is king.

Funny how people bag seniority systems, until the time comes for them to make use of it.
It’s all well and good saying the ‘oldies’ have had it good and should step aside for the young ones.
Will you think the same way in 20 years time when it’s your turn to step aside.
I think some of the more senior people will use this opportunity to leave, as so much has changed and will change.

Absolutely I am, not here to hide it. My solution is not for everyone at the top, but there is a significant slice of the pie that can afford it.

I'm neither young nor old. But I've heard that bolded statement thrown around a lot in the last few weeks, and it just doesn't sit right with me.
Some of the Younger Pilots (or more correctly, Junior Seniority) are looking at losing their entire Careers here. There is no making up for that in most cases and many are looking at having to sell their homes during a Recession.

For example, losing the last year of your career is a lot less impactful than losing your entire career in your mid-late 30's. Retraining and climbing the ladder in another industry while feeding your kids and paying a mortgage is no simple task.

I'm not going to claim to know how super works in OZ, but in NZ you aren't forced to withdraw it all the day you turn 65. You can wait for the Markets to recover. If a Pilot needs to withdraw their entire super the day they turn 65 then I'm afraid to say, COVID is the least of your problems.

My Parents as an example, put a portion of their Retirement savings into "Cash" 2 years prior to retiring when the Market were up. My Fathers reasoning was to ensure they were less vulnerable to a market crash. I don't believe they touched their actual super until around age 70.
Given most Pilots are "reasonably intelligent" I would assume many approaching Retirement have done some forward financial planning and diversified their profiles to reduce the risk of crashing markets at Retirement.

That's not to say Life hasn't happened to some of you along the way. Seniority doesn't always equate financial security so no one should be told to bugger off just because of their age. Likewise, there are also some very wealthy and secure Junior Pilots.
But the notion that a "younger" Pilot losing their Job has a better chance of revery than a Senior one is, in most cases, false. And lets not get started on the cost of housing for various generations on the Seniority lists.

JQ will not be able to off load the 787 for a very long time anyway, there is no indication they want to off load all of them also. The 787 crews will be stood down for as long as it takes unfortunately, just like QF and VA international crews. I also can not see JQ training those guys back to the 320 finances available post COVID-19 will not be there. JQ will fire back up by base not seniority as this will be the cheapest for the business. I can’t find anything in the EBA to indicate flying is dished out by your number on the list, if you’re in ML or SY your return will be quicker bases like PH, NTL and AVV will almost be last to get going. I personally think a base restructure will occur NTL and maybe PH will be lucky to be around, we already can crew PH from SY or ML we have been doing it for 2 yrs already.

why should they? they didn’t create coved 19. Just sayin’

I'm not "sayin" they should. What I am "sayin" is that there is a better chance of the gravy train drivers retiring early than there is a Trump press conference passing the Trump fact checker.

Why do younger pilots hold such a grudge against the old boys?. I know with ANZ there are some Lefties there with 40 years under their belt with the same airline. That’s a long and dedicated service. Why should they get the arse, first, when they have spent decades servicing the community and their airline, loyally?

Yes I was a bit cheeky with my wording. My career spanned 40 years with ANZ and it was a wonderful experience except for what the Governement and Airline did in regards to Erebus. Nothing arduous in doing what you love for 40 odd years and getting paid for it. The world changed after 9/11 and it has changed again due to COVID. Aviation will never be the same, and that’s really sad.

Tough times call for tough methods. Every benevolent dictator understands that.
Few airlines in the current climate can afford strict implementation of last-in first-out and all the attendant re-training that would be involved with a major fleet reduction. A management acceding to that demand will only accelerate bankruptcy.
The compromise, for pilots at least, is job share. If operations are cut by two thirds, put everyone on a two day week for one third salary. That is actually a slight increase in productivity in that it is the equivalent to each full time pilot flying a six day week. This slight productivity increase is is roughly offset by the cost of keeping excess pilots in simulator check etc. To further offset the inefficiencies of keeping excess pilots in check (but only if not covered by productivity gains) annual leave would not accrue while job sharing.
Pilots at the top of the seniority list would not feel as much pain as those at the bottom - in fact most senior captains should survive on a third salary anyway. It may mean taking the kids out of private school and trading the his & hers matching Beemers for a Corolla. But hey, a car is a car and ordinary public schools are adequate for learning basic basket weaving (which is all our education system is fit for anyway).
Such a scheme would be far more tough on those at the bottom, but at least they would retain a part time job with 5 days a week available to stack those supermarket shelves - which is their cross to bear. If they do have an expensive car on the never-never, let the financier repossess it. A pushbike will provide all the exercise they once paid for at the gym.
How to deal with those not prepared to job share? Sack the mean spirited, selfish bastards.
Upside to this dastardly scheme is nearly all pilots could maintain proficiency for when some recovery occurs. Those who get too far out of recency will find it very difficult to get back in the game.
If all this sounds like I am not sympathetic, not so. Merely pointing out the way I would do it if I was that benevolent dictator. Be thankful I am not!

it really is!
there are plenty of spoilt rich kids, with mummy’s and daddy’s that can and would support them through the years, so how about you take aim at all the people on here that have done ok in life for one reason or another, not just the older, more experienced

I feel for all the pilots and associated staff that have lost their jobs, must be awful -(
When normality returns one day and flying ramps up the jobs will be there but they won't be there for everyone -(
stay focused guys/gals -:)

No that's quite sympathetic. I believe when a small amount of flying returns to a fleet if it needs to be a 50% or even 30% job share then so be it. It's better for everyone and the pilots group as a whole for all pilots to be maintain recency and a portion of their salary rather than 50% on full salary and 50% on nothing. If that was the case it'd be a brave person to admit they don't wish to job share....

And what exactly does this contribute Machtuk?
If you are not affected butt out.
This is way too serious for pretenders to try and find some vicarious pleasure in it.

I suppose that’s going to be tricky. Many competing interests. Same as taking Industrial actions I suppose.

Will self-preserving behaviours of humans have changed after this?

Oh dear, "Seniority is archaic".......... except when you've got it. I suspect this poster believes that sycophancy is the way to go.

Oh dear... “except when you’ve got it”...until you don’t. The alternative to seniority is not necessarily polishing the apple. Don’t be such a drama queen.

got no issue with accelerated command. But new hires can forget jumping the staff travel priority list, need to do their time to F class entitlement and shouldn’t expect acceleration on route scheduling priorities/scheduling systems.

The reality is that anyone 55+ outside of QF is not looking at huge a super balance. There are plenty of people who got wiped out at Ansett in their prime earning years only to be possibly done again in their 50's. I think a call for the over 55's to arbitrarily retire is probably a bit disingenuous given what they have been through in their career. I wouldn't have an issue with any of those folks if they wanted to hang on til 65+.
But sure if you have been in QF since you were 25 have lived through the biggest expansion period the airline has ever experienced and your biggest decision is whether to go a Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 490 over a the Beneteau Oceanis then I would agree it's time to move on.

ok, what is the alternative, ? Please explain the apple thing.

Polishing the Apple
 

A slightly more colloquial description of a Sycophant.

Brown noser, Crawler, Teacher’s Pet.

Apple polisher!

That is really rather cynical. I do not think that there are many "old boy captains" who would rub noses in the dirt like that - most of us (in those days) were gentlemen & generous in our encouragement of the youngsters. I am very conscious that I was extremely fortunate timing-wise but I also know many others who were not. Such is life - or luck!

Seniority is a bit like democracy: not perfect,but WAY ahead of whatever system is next.

'One day you'll be senior son." The greatest lie propagated by senior folk who - extraordinarily - actually believed the lie coming from their mouths.

Allegedly a number of senior folk were very quickly onto the Union demanding to immediately exercise their right to displace folks junior to them onto a jet (i.e. the one that will return to International flying first) that over the last last 30+years they would classify in a derogatory manner as "just a light twin." A pity they don't understand the Award.

Also a pity that during their 40 year career, probably 30 as a Captain, they didn't have the financial smarts to put themselves into a position to retire by their 60s. Considering that during that time the retirement age changed multiple times in their favour and gave them years of extra earnings.

And yet, when holding court with a literally captive audience, they will continually use the phrase 'snouts in the trough' when referring to Management.

:D :D :D

But again, I ask, why should they? I’m by no means senior, and would benefit massively if many of the pilots you describe retire. But why is it that whenever there is a crisis, we immediately attack the senior blokes? It’s not their fault. Why should they be the ones to sacrifice something? I believe in this country we call it “the tall poppy syndrome”, and quite simply jealousy is a curse. Get over it. If the old guys want to retire, good on them, but stop trying to make them the bad guys. It’s not their fault.

To the Captains in the 60 plus band who would have otherwise retired because their 5 million is super is only worth 3 million now, please still retire! You will still live comfortably. You don’t need to drive a Merc anymore- trade it in for the Hyundai, they make good cars.

You have had a good run (actually a great run over the last 30 plus years), let the guys and girls with mortgages and young kids have their turn. (Assuming there are any scraps left at the end of this).

Thanks