RIN 2020
 

With the last B747 service, there would be a lot of pilots soon to retire, almost retire and then the ones who have been taking the cream for 15-20 years and haven’t taken a promotion. Anyhow, I digress.

RIN 2020. How will it work?

the company won’t have the money for a full RIN a55 kicking exercise going backwards... could they fire just the -400 guys, or could they keep the “stood down” permanently?

How much $ is in the QF bank?

why would the EA not apply?

Given the nature of the changes that are occurring every few hours let alone every day/ week, I’m not sure the company has yet had time to even look too deeply into how a RIN could work. I’m quite confident it’s not yet very high on their priority list.

Of course pilots being pilots (particularly with lots of idle time in our brains) are turning their minds to such things.

I suspect that’s it for the 747 but I’m pretty sure no final decision has yet been made. Again, what was current a few days ago is no longer current.

The chief pilot was asked this in a webinar the other day. His exact words were "at an appropriate time we will follow the RIN process". Make of that what you will.

My personal opinion is that the retirements and remaining 747 pilots would have already been accounted for with the next 3 787's.

With the head of training saying all courses have been deferred, I suspect those waiting for a RIN off the 747 will just stay stood down.

How they get all the wheels turning again is going to be a big task.

And the 380?????

If we get to the point where we are doing a RIN then that's a positive because it means we are flying again.
Nothing is certain.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....e245960dfd.png
Cathay’s debt profile as of Dec 19. 90% debt:equity. The shake down hasn’t even started yet. It’s far too early to be making decisions.

One hell of a mess, where as most wanted to go to the 380 IMO they will now go to the 787.

Can’t really RIN anyone to any fleet when they aren’t flying, and no line training can be conducted.

I’m told VA have said the redundant Tiger pilots are on stand down until there’s cash to pay them a redundancy.

It may be a case that the 744 and excess 380 pilots are just held on indefinite standown until there’s 787s or even some 350s for them to go to and they get by on either leave or the government’s wage subsidy until then. Natural attrition will probably take care of a decent chunk of pilots in that case.

My reading of 15.6 is that once restrictions are lifted on international operations and pilots are called back from Stand down then its one back all back. The fact that there are not enough customers is not the pilots problem.

I think you need to re read 15.6 Dragonman. It all refers to a pilot, singular, not plural.

It sure will be the pilots problem should it eventuate. Your employment is directly linked to your employers circumstances. Only public servants get to ignore reality.

Correct.

The Company may deduct payments from the pay of an Australian based pilot for any day the pilot cannot be usefully employed because of any strike, stoppage or other limitation of work for which the Company cannot be held responsible, subject to the following conditions:

Then each individual pilot can return to work once those limitations for which the company cannot be held responsible are lifted, in other words planes can fly unrestricted the fact there are not customers is not the pilots responsibility.

If you are on a fleet that has no flying, then you cannot be usefully employed and will remain stood down.

That's how I read it?

In the case of the 747 there is no fleet therefore a RIN.

And as the CP said two days ago "at an appropriate time we will follow the RIN process". What he meant by "an appropriate time" is anyone's guess. The way he stumbled at the answer made it sound like it wont be happening anytime soon.

We are in uncharted territory. A lot of the 747 crew will have to make the decision: RIN to 380 and remain stood down, or RIN to the 787 and wait for a training course. That's assuming the rumours are correct. Only two days ago management denied it.

That’s your opinion it does not mean it’s correct. Fair work stand down provisions are quite explicit that lack of customers when there are no restrictions on your business are not reasons for standing down staff.

Dragonman, If you are stood down and the 747 is gone, whats the trigger that says you can be usefully employed when the individual(s) have no aircraft to be usefully employed on? Therefore a RIN cannot take place until the company can see a place where you can be usefully employed, then you are entitled under the award to a RIN process. Thats the way I read it.

And that's your opinion dragon_man. It also doesn't mean its correct.

If your fleet is grounded and therefore you cannot be usefully employed then they are within their rights to stand you down.

If the corona-virus has destroyed international travel to the point where large commercial aircraft are not viable, then that's out of the company's control, and within the stand down rights.
No, that's your words, not the law.

If you are not RINed then in my option a VR/CR must be offered. We have different opinions and they will not be solved here, in the coming months we will find out I guess.

You could lead by example and retire.

Unfortunately I think on the 747 and maybe some of the 380 you can almost bank on CRs, no RIN and positions offered on fleets that can absorb bit of a surplus. I just hope redundancies are at the LH agreement formula and not Fair works.

Have you been fibbing to us dragon_man? I thought you were retired.

As could you.

You can’t CR on the 747 fleet. The EA doesn’t permit it. The company could certainly offer VR to those pilots though. Any pilot that decided to not take up such an offer would then be subject to a RIN.

They’ve been stood down under the LHEA, not FW provisions.

I agree with dragon man that the way the stand down provisions state, EA or FW, that a lack of demand is not not a valid reason.
Kegs right as well about CR.
Interesting how this will play out.
Also those on the 400 who were going to retire will be no doubt be thinking how they will play this?

Well that is interesting having a category of pilots who "cannot" be made redundant

Would be interested to see the wording on that (& not suggesting it isn't true) - but it does sound like job security

Which I thought AJ said would never happen & this would make me a little skeptical about a black & white statement "747 crew cannot be made redundant"

Do you really think QF would go through the very significant costs of retraining 747 crews onto other types when any recovery comes , when the
airline is fighting for its survival . & I don't know how to put a band aid on , absolutely zero medical knowledge but I understand numbers & we are at 4000 positive now , 1000 seven days ago , 250 14 days ago
& about 70 21 days ago. Very consistent increase 400% per week for three weeks now. We aren't going to get a quick fix & planes back in the air with this growth rate

Then again I guess the cruise ships & larger arrivals of returnee Australians had some thing to do with it. If we are at 16,000 in seven days , that will not be good

Clearly that will get interesting in both SH & LH , who is recalled first from stand down , how is that done ? , is it done by seniority , by fleet , by base or
a combination of all. If seniority & the A330 were going back then it would largely be 4 engine crews taking over that flying

What about SH ? , base dependent ?

There doesn't seem to be any mention & in any employment contract about how a recall from a stand down would work & no case law to use as guidance

So company likely to do it in most economical way ? , meaning they won't do massive retraining programs

So group seniority lists are worthless?

The seniority lists are used to determine promotion eligibility & bidding for trips in LH

Think some detail on how seniority can be used for return to work following redundancy, ie: 15.10 etc . CR looks like the best deal doesn't it
you still get paid out & then have your name placed on the "redundancy list" & get re-employed at your old Seniority number - that's juicy. VR must
be better than CR , which at 3 weeks per year (up to 5 years) and 4 weeks per year over 5 years is a Hollywood redundancy by Australian standards

But no mention of how seniority can be used for return to work following a stand down , clearly AIPA thought it would never happen
so they never bothered putting any 'flesh on the bone' in this part of their employment contract . Also not certain any case law about
(could be wrong)

AIPA had redundancy covered off quite well , but let "stand down" go through to the keeper

Clearly if seniority is used , it is no big secret there are plenty of former Ansett guys who joined QF after collapse & have elected to remain SOs
on the A380/747 (obviously as is their right) who would replace SOs hired in last few years of recruitment. Likely many of the four engine Capts & FOs would
also replace the A330/787 Capts & FOs . This could delay by years the return to work of the 400 + hired since late 2016

Got tad diverted , but the answer to your question is the seniority lists work perfectly for what they are "given effect" for , ie: promotion , bidding , and holidays etc on LH

They pilot association just forgot to worry about stand downs , maybe too much time spent on whether they get night credits at rate A or rate B for the new AC
& didn't focus on the big picture , the "Black Swan" event