QANTAS EA10 .......A SECRET RIN
 

HI ALL,

In my honest opinion, an update on all that’s happening in Qantas Long Haul.

It appears Qantas Long Haul EA negotiators may have recently upped the anti in their plan to sell their thirsty A380 and ageing A330 fleets.
If Long Haul pilots vote NO to EA10 in 2 weeks, they cannot be subjected to a reduction in numbers (RIN)(forcibly moved) to the new A350 fleet. The company has vowed to outsource A350 jobs if it’s own pilots vote NO. Outsourcing puts those jobs on a new award.
Under Australian Law, a workforce cannot be forced from one award to another, it can only be moved within its existing award, unless a new award is agreed to.

The A350 is being sold as the Sunrise only aircraft but it’s possible it will replace A330 and A380 fleets starting as soon as late 2022.
If long haul pilots vote NO, they remain on current EA9 conditions of pay rates, pay protection, duty hours, and time off.
A vote of NO means they can only be RINNED to B787, within the scope of EA9.
The B787 enjoys the highest hourly rate and protections, suffering only reduced penalty rates, defeating Qantas' plan to get its pilots off EA9 for good..
The costs involved in RINNING to the established B787 fleet are absolutely prohibitive, because every pilot RINNED, moves someone junior to them, who move someone junior to them, and so on, and so on, under EA9.

The company plan appears to be to get a pilot body Yes vote, have them all on the same award, EA10.
It then is able to stop the A380 refurbishment at 2 or 3 of its fleet of 12, and announce a RIN in 2022, due to the retirement of existing Airbus fleets.
It's existing A330 and 380 pilots can then be RINNED to the A350, fly up to 970 hours per year under duty limits, for a pay reduction of up to 35% for Captains and First Officers. New hire Second Officers will be on a C scale wage, close to that QAL of Flight Attendants.

WHICH GROUP ARE YOU IN ? WHAT A YES VOTE MEANS FOR YOU IN A RIN
GROUP A.......You're a new SO and see an A350 FO slot in your future. >>>>>>Sadly FO positions will be filled by qualified but junior RINNED Airbus FO's and displaced B787 FO’s.

GROUP B......You're a junior FO eager for your initial Command.>>>>>>> Forget it, Qantas has 100's of experienced Captains they have to put somewhere, RINNED to A350 or displacing junior B787 Captains.

GROUP C......You don't care because you don't intend to bid for the A350.>>>>>>You don't have to bid, you're going to be forced onto it.

GROUP D......You're a B787 pilot, so you're immune to the A350 >>>>>>>>Bad news, you're not. The senior RINNED pilots now displace you to A350.

GROUP E......You're planning on retiring within the decade. >>>>>>>>Actually you'll be wanting to retire in 2 years, and your kids better not be pilots after all.

GROUP F.......You just want the 3% backpay.>>>>>>>>>You will get it, but work 200 stick hours more, for a big pay CUT.

To be clear, RINNING qualified and company experienced 330 and 380 pilots to the NOT YET ESTABLISHED A350 is the dirt cheapest way possible to fill the slots, and end the reign of the EA9 LONG HAUL AWARD, all in 1 bold move. The latter being the most important to Qantas.

The President of the AUSTRALIAN & INTERNATIONAL PILOTS ASSOCIATION (AIPA) on Friday had 2 private meetings with Qantas management, after which both parties
agreed to put the Company offer to the membership vote.
This was done without AIPA Committee of Management knowledge or consent.
Committee members and the pilot body are furious.

This strange and unprecedented behaviour from AIPA executives, that has seen deep dissatisfaction within the union for some months now, seems to align with Qantas' recent 180 Flip on it's Project Sunrise stance.
Until 4 weeks ago, Qantas was very prepared to abandon Sunrise if the pilots voted NO, with no hard and fast deadlines.
Now, they are threatening their pilots with plans to outsource the flying, holding daily webinars to sell the new pay cut/work harder deal, and the vote must be made right ASAP.

A NO vote means they are stuck with A380 and A330 aircraft for the foreseeable future, 5 to 10 years as per the original plan PRE SUNRISE
Even in 5 or 10 years, the current EA9 will make the inevitable aircraft retirement RIN a prohibitively expensive exercise, by comparison.
The Company is desperate to get a YES vote up, smashing the pilot award, and the Union appears to roll over and play dead, to the detriment of it's own members.
Only solidarity among pilots and a vote of NO will get the company to consider negotiating in good faith, as has been the practise for 100 years.

That’s great Stig!

Now why don’t you run a little summary of your groups and the consequences of a ”No” vote!

Don’t forget to include the A380 RIN and maybe pretend QF keeps them till 2028 as stated.

Negotiating yourselves out of jobs is the way I see this going. Sorry to be blunt but dogged resistance to any sort of flexibility in this era will result in a loss of work for you and your colleagues. I don't claim to understand the internal workings of your very complicated EBA but I sort of get the feeling you want A380 money and conditions on the A350, good luck with that.

Here we go :rolleyes:

Couldn’t have said it better myself

FYI....our pilots are flexible and willing to negotiate, our last EA proved that beyond any doubt as we agreed to major concessions.
This EA is completely different, there is ZERO negotiation by the company.......sign it or get out .
Anybody claiming that pilots are inflexible in this case clearly has never been to a CoM .

Lol. Jesus. Where do you even start.

A NO vote results in a new entity being established. Under your own reasoning, the 380 eventually gets replaced by the 350 anyway. But because there is no 350 in EBA 10 (because you voted NO) those planes go to the new entity. So you know what happens then? Yep - you guessed it.... RINd to the 787.

Another flawed argument trying to scare the troops.

I say well done MS. That’s what I pay union fees for and that’s why he is president. He is showing leadership and I have no problems with that at all.

I guess it depends what camp you’re in. No pilot I’ve spoken to are furious at all. Everyone I talk to just want to get the vote out ASAP and hopefully get a yes result.

Spot on. I just wonder at what point the 380 pilots on the 380 T&C will have that light bulb moment and realise they stuffed up.

Maybe after they have just ferried the last 380 to the desert, and are sitting on a 787 paxing back to base. 787 RIN course starting the following week.

Really? Everyone?

I’m speaking to a lot of fellow pilots, it’s about 50/50 for me.

“everyone...” :rolleyes:

Yep....every LH pilot I have spoken to (CPT, F/Os and S/Os)....albeit only 20 odd.....have all been completely in favour of a yes vote to secure their flying. The SH pilots that I talk to are frustrated that they don't get a vote and their futures could be hijacked by the no camp.

Fork in the road - to me (and others) it's completely obvious which way to turn.

Twenty... :hmm:

Well, I stand corrected.

Yes 20. Sorry if my numbers don't meet the minimum requirements. Being LH I hardly work. Such a terrible job....I can see why people are so angry

Beware the kiwi with the wide comb....

Yeah, every SH pilot I talk to wants to get off the 737. :hmm:

Crikey, what a rant!

Qantas doesn’t need AIPA’s agreement to put the offer to the membership for a vote. In fact it was Qantas telling AIPA that it’s going to a vote. The offer from Qantas appears to be better than what was previously advertised. If the President was able to secure those improvements then good on him.

If you think it’s a bad thing AIPA is being involved to ensure the drafting is appropriate then I’d be questioning your sanity. If you’re a COM member I’d also be questioning whether you’re upholding your mantra of serving the member’s interests.

It’s ‘strange and unprecedented’ that the president of the union meets with the company at a critical stage of negotiations? I don’t think so.

Based on these two points alone it’s quite easy to see your completely unhinged view of the way things are going and Normanton has nailed beautifully the flawed logic behind your scenario in the event of a ‘no’ vote.

Look at the deal that is put in front of you when the time comes, decide if you think it’s good enough, weigh that against the threat of an external crewing agency, vote.

Thanks Keg. A wise comment from a respected member.

I have had a mixed reaction about the result. From the 330/787 pilots I have spoken to, I would say its 80% Yes, 20% No. But thats not very accurate, as a large amount of votes from the 747 / 380 crew would be voting NO, to protect the legacy conditions / pay on retiring aircraft.

Sounds about right. 380 crew across all ranks are leaning no.

All this talk about a 30% reduction in pay is nonsense.

Even in the last few days the proposals have changed with union input. There will be some type of additional duty payment, a long range credit that will function similar to a night credit and increased yearly pay scales.

The ULR credit on a 21 hour TOD is $155 after tax for a Captain on the 350.

On the real forum it is essentially the same handful of posters writing negatively about the deal apparently cut between the company and the union. A lot of group think occuring, with some essentially indicating they’ll vote no simply due to the nature of how it’s taken place rather than the details of the deal itself. Some of the figures that are being quoted, and claims being made, simply beggars belief.

Hopefully the overwhelming majority - who don’t post on the forum - do better due diligence in looking at the deal when it’s presented and vote accordingly.

What legacy conditions will be left to protect after a No vote when the 747 is gone next year, the 380 won’t be around for much longer and the 330 after that?

If there’s no replacement aircraft then mass demotions and redundancies will occur.

If there are new aircraft coming then those current 747/380 FOs and SOs will be able to get pay rises with promotions that will occur when the new aircraft arrive. The only ones who will be disadvantaged will be 747/380 Captains, but so many are close to retirement. It’ll take a few years for the whole situation to sort itself out, but by that stage a good chunk of current 4 engined Captains will have retired

Is anybody really going to sink the opportunity to fly the Sunrise aircraft which will benefit the vast majority of pilots because of that?

Well said TheStigEA10!


Your post has sure shaken many of the management moles out of the tree (as if there was any doubt about Qantas management directly interfering and posing in these Forums)!

We need more investigative posts like yours to uncover the strategy and likely effects of the management's "Cunning Plan".

Surely someone can find out the future fleet types purchase and sale plan? Everything hinges on that and is the reason for the structure of the offer.

FWIW I see a blatant money grab from the pilots which is lined with lots of broken glass and barbed wire. And all is being disguised as a "Project Somewhere over the Rainbow" plan.

This EA has far more reaching consequences then many realize.

Couldn't agree with you more.

This entire post about a RIN is flawed. The whiners on qrewroom complaining about a RIN are also flawed and misguided.

They think a RIN will happen with a YES vote?

Wait till they vote NO, and a 350 is setup under a new entity. Qantas (and the mass NO voters) have said the 350 will replace the 380.

What do they think will happen when the 380 is retired and there is no 350 in mainline? RINd to the 787.

In both occasions a YES or NO vote has a good result of the 380 pilots being RIN'd. And yet they still try to use this is a valid argument for voting NO.

Unbelieveable !

Yeah, nah.

​​​​​​​See above. Flawed logic and a nonsense argument to scare voters into voting NO.

It’s always easy to sacrifice something that you are not, or never will be, a part of...

Fast forward 15+ years, when the A350 is the legacy airframe and you’ll probably be arguing with the junior pilots (who are now in primary school by the way) about why it’s not a good idea to pay for your own training or some such nonsense and they’ll all be calling you old and out of touch, and how the “A350 and legacy T&Cs are on the way out.”

...and my transformation into Grandpa Simpson is complete! :rolleyes:

Having said that, I agree that we need to separate the deal and the emotion surrounding it. I personally hate the way it’s been conducted, NS is a company shill who can drink alone for the rest of his life as far as I’m concerned BUT I have zero doubt that the company will set up an external agency REGARDLESS of the cost to get it’s way. Sometimes a strategic withdrawal is better than dying on the hill.

I agree ruprecht.

I don't know if it's fair to say we are sacrificing the 380 T&C. The plane is due for retirement this decade, its been confirmed by management. That contract will be gone if we like it or not. The black book conditions go with it.

The 380 pay scales will be grandfathered. That doesn't affect the current pilots.

Lets get those 350s into mainline, and secure the future for all of us.

I'll leave it there, as I agree with what you are saying.

Wouldn't that be an interesting turn of events. No doubt the vote NO conspiracy theorists will be using this one to the full advantage.

Another example of why its important to secure the 350 flying for mainline!

They say they want 12?
So that means they will order 12 and Buy 6. I hope they get 30. I hoped they would get 50 787’s🤨
The offer is good enough to find happy people to do that type of flying at that price. Crewing it 1+2+1 is also a nice little win. (2+2 would have been nicer)

As with all other fleets current & past the 380 & 330 will be around until the last possible day they can park them. History does not favour an early retirement of these A/C. Traffic across the pacific is not getting weaker in the long term even with a direct NY service. Anyone tried to staff travel to/from LA lately?

Natural attrition (ie turning 65) will be how they get crews off the Legacy conditions. Some RIN’s, maybe? Probably? No one will be RIN’d to the 350 that doesn’t want the slot. They can all do displace or bid elsewhere. (It’s not a junior A/C!)

Sure would be nice to have a $400K pa job to be RIN’d to!😉

I think people are getting their Knickers all twisted in a knot unnecessarily. Just keep working the 350 deal and vote how you see fit.

As for the rest of LH. It’s a vanilla eba.

Re read NS' email Q&As from friday, initially they will fly it 1/2/1 but it will default to 1/1/2 after 12 months. Unless of course the FRMS is bombarded with reports.

Sounds like so more proactive reporting will fix that problem

FRMS is data driven. Make sure you stick it those reports when you are genuinely fatigued.

The A350 will absolutely be a replacement for 330/380. They say the A350 is not as economically viable on the 10 hour sectors as it is on the ULH but they will fix that in the next order where some will be delivered with a more normal config. Remember, it’s worth 300 million bucks to them and all that cash will be coming from YOU if you vote YES not to mention what a whopping 20.5 hours of stick will surely do to your health which they don’t give a rats about. Don’t be ‘conditioned’ by their constant bullying via webinars. A NO vote won’t mean the end of your career. That’s ridiculous. Stand your ground and empower yourselves with a convincing NO vote and get em back to the table in April.

Great advice. What else have you learned after a year as a pilot at a company with a jet ?

Remember, it’s worth 300 million bucks to them and all that cash will be coming from YOU if you vote YES not to mention what a whopping 20.5 hours of stick will surely do to your health which they don’t give a rats about.[/QUOTE]

Piece of advice from a old chap about to retire.... Between money and lifestyle, choose the latter. I've seen enough pilots
​​​​​​sitting on cash, only to pass away shortly after retiring.
Good luck guys

Why are people listening to the webinars anyway.
Bonuses are paid on engagement figures & they class every employee that listens to them as being engaged so up goes the bonus & then u are told they had a great response.
It seems like there are a lot of people with short memories out there or a lot of slow learners.
Nobody in management is your friend,hasnt that benn proven time & time again.

Just curious, is that removed from service temporarily? Oh are these in a sales bundle with the JQ 787, eg buy one 787, get one A380 kind of thing?

G registered A350’s
 

Some people forget just how good T’s & C’s are now, compared to those of not so many years ago. Be careful how much you rock the boat, you wont realise you've rocked too far until its unrecoverable and the boat rolls over!

Its entirely plausible for the company to have London based pilots, on UK contracts (think F/A crew base). No reason why the airframes can’t be adorned with a UK, G prefix registration, either!

Stop spreading rubbish. When the deal is published read it. If you want to live out your days on your current aircraft that is fine. But don’t spread incorrect rubbish.

You sure about that mate?

There is no 350 negotiating table in April. What happens when the 350 goes to a new entity?

380's and 330's are retired from mainline, of course replace by 350's under the new entity.

What happens to the mainline pilots then? RINd.

What happens to the junior pilots then? LWOP or redundancy.

Do you know what redundancy is? Yeah that's right, you loose your job.

Your logic is flawed. Please stop providing misguided advice.

Spot on. Don't think they wont do it, because they will. Just look at the cabin crew.

I have more jet time than you may think. Lets keep it on subject shall we.

To answer your question, with the way some LHS drivers and senior pilots have been talking regarding the negotiations - I've learnt that some of them are narrow minded short term thinkers, who only care about themselves, their legacy conditions, and doing everything possible to protect them, at the expense of the majority of the pilots, and the future of the LH EBA and mainline. After all, they will be retired in x years, and its obvious they don't give a ****.

I agree with the last four words of your post. Many won’t give a **** when you or your colleagues inevitably start complaining about the negative impact upon your health that 20.5 hours stick and 23.5 hours duty will have on you, least of all Tino & Co. They have conceded that more info is needed to properly understand the fatigue side so if that is true, why are we even trying to ‘value’ what this new kind of flying is worth now. Should we wait a bit longer? Don’t the pilots deserve more data on fatigue and health issues before deciding on what rates are applicable to this new uncharted area of international flying ops!? IMO, a YES vote is crazy and it just means you are happy to bend over for QF.

And how do you propose they get more data? Give the flying away to a new entity, then 5 years down the track try and get it back?

If you don't want to do the flying, DON'T OPT IN!