Normantons posting history gives the game away. Staccato posts on recruitment and non controversial subjects from 2014, then all of a sudden, in Dec. 2019 he goes off on Project Sunrise and your EBA. Almost all posts are made during working hours or the evening.

Draw your own conclusions.

That's your solution?? I suppose you think you'll have some kind of a say in the FRMS too.

Lots of smoke and mirrors and ducking and weaving from the questions at play fellas.

Can't put together a decent argument for a NO vote.

Lots of scaremongering comments aimed at distracting the younger generation of pilots from the real threat at play here.

Then when the hard questions get asked, you start shifting the blame to insider "management moles" posting on pprune!

Unbelievable!

Amazing that only 6 years ago he was so morally against companies handing out terms and conditions in a race to the bottom. (See below)

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....ba678402a.jpeg

Happy to sell out the next generation of pilots now though! Another couple of EBA’s with Normanton’s leadership and QF SOs will be paying for their “endorsements” also.

Let me guess jet_pilot0. You of course didn't vote YES to LH EBA 9 to bring in the SO B scale.

Thanks for highlighting my post, you buy right into my point.

Hire SO's under the mainline LH EBA, or hire them under a new entity. PICK ONE!

Please answer me this (no one has yet). What happens to the future LH EBA conditions when we have a new entity undercutting at every chance?

I know which conditions will be better. Learn when your opposition has the upper hand. Use your brain, and vote wisely.

I won't be getting into petty discussions with people who try to distract from the real issues at play here. Smoke and mirrors all around. I'm yet to see you write a valid point worth talking about.

And yet you do, incessantly.

There is a huge number of Aussie pilots across the Globe, and back here, who are salivating at the idea of a crack at a QF A350 operation.

Many see this as:

More days off
more time at home
no expat bs
stable employer
oh, and at circa $400k for a Captain, no too bad on the coin.

Currently there’s plenty of pilots making $0 per year due to the slowdown in international flying. Anyone think they’ll say no to this deal?

Currently there’s plenty of Aussies working in countries that don’t have Aus regulations and industrial protections. Anyone think they’ll say no to this deal?

Anyone think current Airbus and widebody Captains will knock back a direct entry command?

If any current pilots think the terms are so unacceptable in the current market that no one will operate under them then they’re living in a bubble.

If any current pilots think an extra few days work per year is unviable then don’t forget a lot of other airlines don’t count full time in the bunk towards flight hours, they’re actually logging heaps more than 850hrs per year. For them the proposed 350 conditions are less work and fatigue.

There will be zero problem finding pilots for this new entity if the vote is No.

Agreed.

A vote No is a vote to end your career as the aircraft get retired.

there are pleeeeeeenty of Network, JQ, Qlink, cobham and an abundance of pilots who live overseas who would be stoked to get paid $400k to captain a jet on a LH flight.

qantas guys, if you don’t like it, don’t opt in. No one is forcing you.

Sc@$s.
What about the 4 digit QF freighter callsigns out of BKK?
Always with a Seppo accent.

Let’s be honest here, do you really think Qantas are giving LH pilots a chance to vote on an agreement with Sunrise flying included because of their loyalty to the LH pilot group?

If the savings were that great using an external pilot group and the costings are that critical Qantas Management would have established it already, remember you are dealing with a group that has zero industrial morals and absolutely no respect for any of its group pilots.

The destruction of the LH award has been one of Joyce’s dreams ever since he took the controls from Dixon, and Tino is frothing at the mouth at getting the chance to impress his master by destroying it.

If people are not divining the alteration in circumstances, they are fools. COVID-19 / Coronavirus is likely to become a non-insurable event globally within a very short space of time, it has already begun in NZ.


source A review of things you need to know before you go home on Tuesday; Kāinga Ora changes rates, car sales up,log prices slump, Govt. warns banks, RBA cuts, swaps recover, NZD up, & more

Expect leisure travel demand to be in freefall. Likely timeframe? 18 months to 2 years.

NZ is considering implementing a travel restrictions from Australia. Coronavirus: PM did not rule out trans-Tasman travel restrictions as first person-to-person transmission in Australia

If people haven't already put two and two together, the Aviation industry is facing a far larger crisis than 9-11, SARS and the GFC combined. I have no doubt that within months of a yes vote, AIPA will be sitting down at the table to work out how to manage pilot numbers to keep everyone with some income until we move to the next phase after the initial wave has passed around the globe.

A no vote at this point? A new entity for the A350 and an invitation to go to FWA and ask for the agreement to be terminated under the cloak of the virus. You may wish to google Aurizon 2015 case, there is a precedent for FWA to unilaterally cancel an expired agreement at an employers request.

Even though Alan has won this round through a combination of rat cunning and rank opportunism , it will still be a pyrrhic victory, he probably won't be able to save his bonus. Hard rain is coming to the industry, even for Alan.

Prepare and vote accordingly.

tell them they are dreaming

$400k for a captain for the "new" setup operation. People who believe that are delusional. I expect that captains will be on $250k or less and F/O's $150k or less. If they are so confident of getting the bums on seats, they will offer a crap deal. Don't think taking a crap deal and then trying to strongarm a better deal later will be an option.

Yes, I am one of those working overseas, on a contract, in a country where the employment rules are nowhere near as robust as Aus and the working conditions are "challenging" to say the least. eg, duty limit 15 hrs, with max flight time 12 hours, 2 crew ops, any time of the day or night.

Well if expat pilots are willing to work under the proposed conditions for even less pay then that shows how much more out of touch those who think the proposed conditions are unacceptable are being.

The problem with us professional pilots is we read a headline or a paper article and apply it to us without understanding why the ruling was made, and under which circumstances it was made. So as you brought it up...
1. why was the agreement cancelled?
2. what FW clauses allowed them (made it preferable) to cancel it? How old were the expired EA’s and how old is ours?
3. What tests have to be met to cancel an expired agreement?
4. What relevance does this case have for our particular EA?

🤐

For the interest of others:
In the Aurizon decision, the employer applied to the Commission under section 225 of the Act to terminate 12 expired EAs (including one which was 17 years old)For example, the expired enterprise agreements contained clauses which:

• Prevented any forced redundancies;
• Either directly or indirectly imposed severe constraints and inefficiencies on the use and the allocation of train crew labour to train services;
• Limited the matters in relation to which individual flexibility arrangements could be reached to annual leave loading.

The Aurizon decision does not provide an automatic ‘green light’ to terminate during the bargaining process. The Full Bench were at pains to point out the unique circumstance Aurizon found itself in, following the privatization process, which weighed heavily in their finding. Employers’ are still required to prove to the FWC that terminating an EA is not against the public interest and is appropriate in the circumstances.Sorry for long post and slight thread drift...but enough scary people around at the mo...

Still bottom feeding in the dark :)

OR maybe, just maybe, the company is playing it smart.

"Sorry Mr. Fairwork Ombudsman. We gave the pilots 3 dates to meet a deadline and they voted down the deal. That is why we went elsewhere"

Fair work: "Case dismissed".

Tino was clear the other day. Qantas are doing their best to communicate with the pilot group and provide the best opportunity to vote this up. Sounded a lot like they’re building a case for their defence for a No vote and FWA.

This in itself should set warning bells off at how desperate Tino etc are to get this voted through.When have you ever known for Qantas to set a deadline for an EBA when times were good? They usually delay, delay , delay until there is some type of downturn so that they can scare the junior pilots with threats of lack of promotions....like they are doing now.

A FWA case won’t make a decision on deadlines if it is voted down, it will be on the legality and the content of the agreement offered to the pilot group.

They are just targeting a section of the pilot group that they know are vulnerable to get this deal over the line. It’s typical Qantas.

the point I was trying to make is how CRAP many deals are out there and how this has been facilitated by people rolling over and accepting a bad deal to get ahead in the short term. In the long run, all they do is drive conditions lower and lower. I say, stand your ground! It is about time the WHOLE pilot community gets together and stops the rot. I know, I'm dreaming.