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Originally Posted by exfocx
(Post 10613610)
lololololol. Like I said , you can't make this **** up! You automatically slam the woman, what, the father had no say...
I said it was the choice of the COUPLE! Read it again genius. |
Originally Posted by Icarus2001
(Post 10613617)
Where did I slam the woman? Which words? I said it was the choice of the COUPLE! Read it again genius. |
Originally Posted by mmmbop
(Post 10613614)
Cool. So now let's do to men what happened to women and that will set the world straight. :ugh:
Quotas are bs. They have been around in government departments since the 70/80s and have only become worse with time, with many incompetent people becoming Head of a Department due to their gender. Now we have them in a safety related career where the best person for the role should be employed, not the person who has the correct gender. I couldn't care less if that means that male to female ratio is 80:20 or 20: 80, this is about people getting the role because they are talented and right for it, not because they are male and female. Here we go, you post one dumb comment after another! Unless women are incompetent they will easily make the cut. I also think you over estimate what's required for the role, most likely poor self-esteem. The numbers game is to get more into the field over a faster time frame without affecting standards. |
“Quotas are bs”
Maybe they have merit in some fields in some situations but for the topic at hand, yes they are BS. Which is why Qantas have not used them nor have they indicated an intention to do so in the future. “where the best person for the role should be employed” And the best way to employ the best person is to cast the widest net possible, which is what Qantas are trying to do by increasing the participation rate of women. A question for you, back in the days when piloting in Australia (one of the most knuckle dragging nations in this regard) was 100% exclusively male, do you think planes were being crewed by the “best person”? |
Originally Posted by exfocx
(Post 10613631)
Here we go, you post one dumb comment after another! Unless women are incompetent they will easily make the cut. I also think you over estimate what's required for the role, most likely poor self-esteem. The numbers game is to get more into the field over a faster time frame without affecting standards.
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“who actually holds the correct qualification for the job in the first instance.”
Not answering the question at all. |
How come in 99% of cases it's the woman whose career goes on hold, how come in 99% of cases it's the woman who continues to do the bulk of the housework while also working? |
Originally Posted by Icarus2001
(Post 10610971)
Any announcement of gender parity in the cabin crew ranks? In the hangar? Check in staff? Bag loaders? ...
Gender parity is only for professions wanted by women and only if they're the minority. Call it "selective parity"... |
Originally Posted by bulldog89
(Post 10613706)
Oh no, please no! Gender parity is only for professions wanted by women and only if they're the minority. Call it "selective parity"... |
Originally Posted by Rated De
(Post 10613709)
When will men get XX weeks paid maternity leave?
Paternity leave, on the other hand, is worth seeking equal rights for! |
Is paternity leave not available now? Can of worms this entire topic. Best human for the job, no problemo, however it’s not how it works. For eternity ones connections or whatever’s gets them through the door, then it is up to the individual to produce the goods. No self respecting trainer, examiner will pass anyone unless you meet the standard (ok there will be minor exceptions as in everything in life). Is it fair? However if you were on the side that got the leg up, what would you do? Take the moral high ground or??? Now tell me on here, how many of you got that first break due to connections of some sort? I will admit my first break NO but certainly my second and third got me speaking to the right people. The world is a forever evolving place.......... |
Originally Posted by Global Aviator
(Post 10613716)
Is paternity leave not available now? Can of worms this entire topic. Best human for the job, no problemo, however it’s not how it works. For eternity ones connections or whatever’s gets them through the door, then it is up to the individual to produce the goods. No self respecting trainer, examiner will pass anyone unless you meet the standard (ok there will be minor exceptions as in everything in life). Is it fair? However if you were on the side that got the leg up, what would you do? Take the moral high ground or??? Now tell me on here, how many of you got that first break due to connections of some sort? I will admit my first break NO but certainly my second and third got me speaking to the right people. The world is a forever evolving place.......... |
Since when in the past was it best person for the job? Oh, you all mean Best Man for the job!
In the past the industry was able to cut out over 50% of the pop (women) when it came to selecting pilots and the number of holes in the ground was what it was, did people go around screaming that we weren't selecting the best person for the job, did they, or have I missed something? So, how will that change when you choose to include women. And for the intellectually challenged who keep going on about gender parity driving the **** cart etc, I'm sure women would LOVE that, it would mean an automatic improvement in their life as it would mean better pay and better jobs and they are OVER represented in all those ****ty job areas. |
Originally Posted by josephfeatherweight
(Post 10613700)
In a thread full of made-up, BS statistics, this is one of the bigger piles of manure I've read. Not the case in my household or in 76.8% of my colleagues' households.
I would say less than 10% of men I know do anywhere near equal to what women do. Not only is it my experience, but it's what survey after survey confirms. |
Originally Posted by Orange future
(Post 10613642)
A question for you, back in the days when piloting in Australia (one of the most knuckle dragging nations in this regard) was 100% exclusively male, do you think planes were being crewed by the “best person”? |
Your seriously deluded or an outright liar, your pick! I would say less than 10% of men I know do anywhere near equal to what women do. Not only is it my experience, but it's what survey after survey confirms. |
Originally Posted by exfocx
(Post 10613610)
lololololol. Like I said , you can't make this **** up! You automatically slam the woman, what, the father had no say, he couldn't take unpaid leave and do the childcare? You prove my point Icarus, you automatically assume the woman is responsible for parenting and the man isn't, and that's the issue and it's wide spread throughout the community, women are EXPECTED to do it all and if they have children they are accused of "wanting it all'!
So if you want to be a mother be a responsible mother and look after the child the way nature intended. Let the man go out and work and be protector of his family. To those women who choose not to have families, good for you if you want to be a professional pilot but then you earn it on merit, no quotas or AA to help you along and discriminate against men, especially if at your assessment the men did a better job than you. |
Originally Posted by exfocx
(Post 10613628)
Icarus, the Tone Deaf pilot! Choice, what sort of stupid comment is that? Women, as the stats show, Have.No.Choice, or maybe, they're just really accommodating people, that they do nearly all the heavy lifting. Dumb or what!
Grow up...if you can’t off to your little safe space you go! |
Daddy fantastic...
I agree 100% |
Cutting out the emotional BS, there is one real problem that concerns me.... That is the confidential memo to managers requiring a justification report to senior management if a female pilot is recommended for disciplinary action, downgrading, failure to perform other adverse findings or termination. THAT is the dangerous and expensive side to “quotas”, not the recruitment side. It costs lots of money to bribe anyone but white males into accepting job loss for non performance because you have, as a manager, to guard against discrimination lawsuits. That is, of course, if you can convince senior management whose kpi’s include “diversity” that you have a non performing member of a protected species in the first place. To put that another way, you will know you are operating an unbiased system when failure rates are equal. |
Yes there was discrimination in the past, but that doesn't mean there needs to be 'revenge' and discriminate the other way now. Should just learn from our mistakes and hire based on ability, because there is no questioning that hiring based on a quota is discrimination. If you don't agree with that then I guess you are not for equality but rather for vengeance. Personally couldn't care less about someone's gender as long as they are a nice person and good at their job.
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Originally Posted by Sunfish
(Post 10611031)
By definition, the alleged Qantas target for gender representation means that qualified male candidates will be passed over in favor of female candidates that meet threshold minimum requirements until such time as the target is deemed to be achieved. Basic maths. That means also by definition that males with equal or higher skill levels than women will be rejected. I am female, work at QANTAS and have a degree in aviation. I also hold a PPL and have lots of volunteer work in aviation. The application specifically asks about volunteering, studying, etc. Got rejected for the cadetship on the first stage. All the successful applicants (male and female) had less flying experience than me. They want ab initio pilots. So whilst there is a big push for female pilots, it really do see to be exaggerated here: eg it common to see in the recruiting threads claims that being female is “guarantee” for a pilot spot. The cadetship is the lowest skilled entry point for their pilots so if they’re going to ignore qualifications in favour of gender wouldn’t they start at the easiest level? As for the sexual harassment thing: in my experience sexual harassment appears to be commonplace in aviation. I’ve see it in other areas like air traffic control, and even at the local aero club. I personally found that it was older men who would insist on calling every woman “girly” or “darling” who were the worst perpetrators. I can’t think of anytime I had a problem with a younger person. |
Originally Posted by gordonfvckingramsay
(Post 10611569)
A regularly overlooked point here. I know several long standing female pilots who cringe at the thought that their gender is effectively devaluing their hard work and dedication. If women pilots really had any self respect they would reject the quota system and do it the old fashioned way. |
Originally Posted by Clare Prop
(Post 10613858)
Hear hear.
There are no quotas. Recruitment data is de identified for the final decision. So sorry (not) it is hard to accept that the higher rate of female pilot recruitment means that the female applicants are doing better in assessment...and that those who are protesting are most likely those who would not have got a job had there been more competition from female candidates. |
You know what really ****s me about male dominated work places? That they are male dominated.
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I've worked with and trained female pilots. They are just like male pilots, some great, some not so great. I really don't understand what housework has to do with it.
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Originally Posted by Daddy Fantastic
(Post 10613752)
Too hell with being TONE DEAF. I don’t care if that offends you, PC has ruined the planet. Freedom of speech includes offending, you dont like it then best.....
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What century were you born in to assume that women make the better parent, what science do you base that on? |
Can we drift the thread away from housework and towards politics? I just want to point out how lucky some of us are to be in democratic western nations. Many would see this as a good problem to have. Under different political and religious systems , in many countries, in 2019, women are not educated to the same level as men and don’t have the same opportunities to make choices like “ shall I train to become a pilot or not”. I am very grateful that I live in a country where we are so heavily influenced by our predominantly Christian history and our hard won democratic freedoms.....and I’m not religious. Big ups to our terrible system that is better than all the rest and thank you to my grandmothers generation for their sacrifices circa seventy years ago. |
“So if you want to be a mother be a responsible mother and look after the child the way nature intended.”
I am really unclear as to why we are even discussing the whole childbirth issue here (despite the fact that it was central to Ansett’s argument when trying to prevent women from flying). My wife was a professional her entire life and raised 2 kids. Of the 40 years spent working she was off work for childbirth and breast feeding for probably less than a year in total. “good for you if you want to be a professional pilot but then you earn it on merit, no quotas” Which is precisely what is happening. There are NO quotas and have never been quotas to favor women in Qantas or any airline in Australia, which is why females still only occupy about 5% of the cockpit seats available. The only quota system I am aware of was the one that ensured only men could fly airliners, a system that makes a complete mockery of the “best person for the job” argument so commonly regurgitated on this thread. “I am very grateful that I live in a country where we are so heavily influenced by our predominantly Christian history and our hard won democratic freedoms” You are aware that Australia graduated its first female fighter pilots in the military only 12 months ago and only as a result of a condemning report by the Human Rights Commission? There have been females flying fighters in other countries including several muslim countries for over 80 years. Australia has been beaten by Pakistan, India, China, Turkey just to name a few. America and the UK are an entire generation ahead of Australia. |
You are aware that Australia graduated its first female fighter pilots in the military only 12 months ago and only as a result of a condemning report by the Human Rights Commission? There have been females flying fighters in other countries including several muslim countries for over 80 years. Australia has been beaten by Pakistan, India, China, Turkey just to name a few. America and the UK are an entire generation ahead of Australia. Shout out to the USA and the UK for helping us maintain our democratic freedoms which allows us to advance the rights of women and minorities to create a fairer society. |
NFPAR, good on you! Regarding harassment, my experience as a manager was the. opposite of yours; older guys were well behaved because they knew the employment consequences of a harassment allegation - in business an allegation is enough to get you fired. It was the young twenty/thirty somethings I had to counsel, they often thought they were just being funny. What concerns me, as I have said (and witnessed) is having double standards not for hiring, but for retention. |
Originally Posted by 73qanda
(Post 10613936)
Can we drift the thread away from housework and towards politics? I just want to point out how lucky some of us are to be in democratic western nations. Many would see this as a good problem to have. Under different political and religious systems , in many countries, in 2019, women are not educated to the same level as men and don’t have the same opportunities to make choices like “ shall I train to become a pilot or not”. I am very grateful that I live in a country where we are so heavily influenced by our predominantly Christian history and our hard won democratic freedoms.....and I’m not religious. Big ups to our terrible system that is better than all the rest and thank you to my grandmothers generation for their sacrifices circa seventy years ago. Your Grandmother would have been barred from many professions and on a different pay scale to men for most she COULD do. We have come a long way- it would be foolish to think we are finished redressing injustices of the past. |
Originally Posted by Capt Kremin
(Post 10611063)
Thats probably true but in my experience a large percentage of women drop by the wayside over the span of the average career. Few seem to want to be 60 year old pilots.
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Originally Posted by Orange future
(Post 10614081)
Which is precisely what is happening. There are NO quotas and have never been quotas to favor women in Qantas or any airline in Australia
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“Women tend to leave the job after the fun wears off”
I suspect this may be the case to a certain extent although all of the women I have worked with in the past 30 years are still flying to the best of my knowledge. In my experience in the industry, many many of my male pilot friends would love to no longer be flying but are type cast in the role and have no option but to keep flying. The fun has worn off however there is no plan B and many of my mates feel trapped by the golden handcuffs. The vast majority of these male friends lack a partner that has the professional qualifications to be earning a salary that will permit these guys to quit and maintain the lifestyle they have become accustomed to. Many of my male friends who fly have partners that dont work at all. The few women I know in the industry have partners who earn as much or more and can provide for the family were the wife to leave the job. I actually know of no women pilots whose partner does not work. |
I'm not sure if they are quotas, but the cadetships definitely have recruitment goals in terms of gender and this in itself is discrimination as there shouldn't be any favouring due to ones gender.
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Originally Posted by 73qanda
(Post 10614142)
Lol hands up all the women wanting to trade their Australian rights for those in Pakistan, India, China or Turkey? But if countries in which the status of women is less than men have been able to integrate women better into flying roles before Australia, which supposedly has more gender equality, maybe it does say something about how our specific attitudes in Australian Aviation have developed over time? For instance (genuine question as I’m not sure) was there any other nation in the late 70’s that was fighting court battles to keep females out of airline flight decks? And it’s surprising to learn which nation has the highest number of female airline pilots? It’s not one that is renowned for gender equality: Women airline pilots: The country with the most female pilots will surprise you |
Originally Posted by dr dre
(Post 10614272)
You’ve totally misrepresented that post. No one is calling for the rights and status of women in Australia to be watered down to those of a third world country (Notwithstanding the fact Pakistan, India and Turkey had elected female PM’s earlier than Australia too). But if countries in which the status of women is less than men have been able to integrate women better into flying roles before Australia, which supposedly has more gender equality, maybe it does say something about how our specific attitudes in Australian Aviation have developed over time? For instance (genuine question as I’m not sure) was there any other nation in the late 70’s that was fighting court battles to keep females out of airline flight decks? And it’s surprising to learn which nation has the highest number of female airline pilots? It’s not one that is renowned for gender equality: Women airline pilots: The country with the most female pilots will surprise you https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....4cbd8941af.jpg Sourced from Forbes. Surely, there's room for a few more. |
Originally Posted by Traffic_Is_Er_Was
(Post 10613917)
Our legal system certainly seems to have that opinion.
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