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-   -   Virgin Australia : 315 Million Loss - How long can they survive? (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/625002-virgin-australia-315-million-loss-how-long-can-they-survive.html)

Arthur D 3rd Sep 2019 14:32


Originally Posted by Harbour Dweller (Post 10559654)
Maybe not when you consider there are a large number of VAA B777 FO's being remunerated to Captain salaries.

http://vipa.asn.au/wp-content/upload...-Agreement.pdf

EXISTING FIRST OFFICERS
Clause 54.1 Virgin Australia expects that all 38 existing First Officers will obtain a command position within the Virgin Australia Group by 30 June 2016. If this does not occur, Virgin Australia will pay each of the remaining 38 First Officers at that time the applicable Captain’s rates (starting at the entry level rate). For any relevant First Officers, these payments will be made from the first full pay period after 30 June 2016 until such time as they obtain a command.

You’re kidding right? No seriously, is this a joke?

Not even Ansett was this irresponsible, and they had flight engineers on 767’s......

AerialPerspective 3rd Sep 2019 16:05


Originally Posted by Snakecharma (Post 10560571)
I think the cargo door thing is being a little over blown.

yes, in an ideal world they should all have the bigger door, but it isn’t the end of the world and it does not really, in a practical sense, limit the freight it can carry. It just makes handling more of a pain.

the smaller cargo door is the standard fitting on the 777 and the bigger cargo door is the option. If it was such a huge deal there would be no choice. The decision to go with the standard door was a swift decision that had longer term implications, and was about a million bucks an airframe if I remember correctly.



The fact it is an option is more about Boeing trying to present an undesirable option then offering a $ upgrade to fit the door that should be standard (like on the 747)... if it wasn't a problem then the 747 wouldn't have had it as standard. A created opportunity to gouge just a bit more money per airframe.
Secondly, no, it's not the 'end of the world' but although no one at VA seems to realise, the airline industry is a tightly coupled, interconnected network (I say that because of their boneheaded attitude to standard industry processes such as FIMs, interline, etc. mostly based on misconceptions) that relies, particularly with perishable cargo (which is why after all, it is sent by air) being able to be carried then rapidly transferred to another flight where their is no direct service. Not having the door means that the most effective means of carriage, say for something up to 5,100kg or more (4626 for an 88 inch pallet), that the most efficient unitisation and handling is to pack it ONCE onto a pallet or an appropriate (96 or 88 inch) pallet based unit. This takes time, it needs to be weighed and recorded on a weight statement to go to Load Control. Not having the door means, for example, transferring from an A330 to a 777 or from another operator affiliated with VA who presents a pallet base unit, will need unloading/packing, repacking into several smaller ULDs, then weighing, paperwork and despatch back to the ramp (often the cargo facility is remote from the terminal). I suggest considering the cost of manpower, say 2 x 2hrs at each port where this has to occur and multiply it across 5 airframes and say 2 pallets per flight (it's probably more potentially), every day, is more than $.5M per annum based on a very, very conservative per hour charge for labor. This means the extra $1M on just ONE door would be repaid after 2 years. It is a fact that ANY airline that is looking to make a dollar is going to look at the ex VA aircraft and pass them up for one that has a larger door. It's not a huge, world-ending disaster by any means but it does show a basic lack of understanding in ordering the aircraft... and doing it to pay for a paint job (which is now removed) is just nuts.
So SQ didn't specify the larger door... so what, they are not the great oracles of the industry that everyone makes them out to be... looking at them without rose coloured glasses, they have plenty of foibles like any airline and they are known to be penny pinchers in many instances.

Saintly 3rd Sep 2019 22:37

Is it fair to say that VA Australia is heading down the Ansett path as in could VA Australia cease to exist? I know its a weird question but we all know VA Australia isn't do8ng well and hasn't done well for a number of years.

Wizofoz 3rd Sep 2019 22:41


Originally Posted by Saintly (Post 10561246)
Is it fair to say that VA Australia is heading down the Ansett path as in could VA Australia cease to exist? I know its a weird question but we all know VA Australia isn't do8ng well and hasn't done well for a number of years.

No business can stay in business indefinitely if it doesn't make money and doesn't look like it ever will. Ansett was an incredibly valuable brand, but that ended up meaning nothing if it was no longer a viable business.


B772 3rd Sep 2019 22:47

BP has announced it is withdrawing from the Velocity Loyalty Program and starting its own. They will have QF as a partner.

vhtae 3rd Sep 2019 23:36


2 x 777s VH-VOZ/VPH have the big door and 3 x 777s VH-VPD/E/F have the small door


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....8f826db0c.jpeg


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....bcbea7784.jpeg
.

Goat Whisperer 4th Sep 2019 00:21

Counterpoint: all the hullabaloo about the cargo doors is a distraction at best, at worst disingenuous.

The 777 op was always designed for the long end of long haul. hence 9 abreast seating in Y etc. The large rear cargo door adds hundreds of kg to the empty weight. Burns more fuel on every hour of every flight. Yet with the large forward door you can still take a whole car...

https://www.virgin.com/travel/how-to...expensive-cars

That was on VPE, forward hold. Longest sector, MEL-LAX.

The standard cargo door is used by such airlines as Singapore, JAL, China Southern. They know a thing about cargo.

Now, about starting routes to hub airports with no on-carriage? That was stupid, but I'm sick of hearing about the cargo doors.

B772 4th Sep 2019 01:00

Wow, a stuff up by Virgin PR. Crowing about delivering a car from MEL to LAX (by B777) and congratulating the pilots (WTF) and they show a caption of a A330.

Berealgetreal 4th Sep 2019 01:19

What we need now is another 1-200 posts about the 777 and it’s cargo doors and someone to say Virgin is going down the Ansett path.

non_state_actor 4th Sep 2019 02:24


It’s a bit disappointing, albeit not unexpected in this forum, to read the vilification of these 750 roles to be reduced. Especially those firing off the rhetoric are probably pilots and as such hold prominent leadership positions in VA. Leadership by example, I’m sure I read that somewhere.

To assume that all 750 of these jobs and the people who fill them do nothing more than suckle at teat of the company, not produce or do anything meaningful and should be dispatched to the unemployment line posthaste is just plain vexatious. Yes there would be some positions that are a nice to have when things are going well, which they aren’t and these are obviously not sustainable. And yes every workgroup, pilots included, have individuals who are as useless as tits on the proverbial. But it is false equivalency to say this is representative of the whole.
I agree with the sentiment however getting retrenched from a corporate job isn't like being retrenched as a pilot. If you are in a non aviation role, there are plenty of corporate jobs down the road in your field. A friend of mine resigned from his job simply because the head office moved a few kilometres and affected his commute!! So culling 700 odd jobs, of which many are probably redeployed anyway, can't be thought as the same as retrenching pilots. Basically if an Airline Captain gets retrenched it's going to be the end of their career in Australia as a Captain. They might be able to collect an FO job somewhere but unlikely they'd ever be a Airline Captain again. If you're an accountant, work in finance, HR etc, you can just move to another company probably on the same train line.

Buster Hyman 4th Sep 2019 02:56

Painting the aircraft white was a mistake too. They clearly should have just stayed in the red...

Berealgetreal 4th Sep 2019 03:50


Originally Posted by Buster Hyman (Post 10561349)
Painting the aircraft white was a mistake too. They clearly should have just stayed in the red...

A golden opportunity to have a paint scheme that looked amazing and we got.... Qf lite. Probably the first point at which I scratched my head.

Buster the problem with red is that it fades over time.

t_cas 4th Sep 2019 04:11


Originally Posted by Berealgetreal (Post 10561364)

Buster the problem with red is that it fades over time.

Hopefully the loss will fade away....

Buster Hyman 4th Sep 2019 04:33


Originally Posted by Berealgetreal (Post 10561364)

A golden opportunity to have a paint scheme that looked amazing and we got.... Qf lite. Probably the first point at which I scratched my head.

Buster the problem with red is that it fades over time.

Yes, when the Ansett. was revealed it was a revelation. Not the first of course but white wings too...:\ A lot of carriers went down a similar path and it is a very common look now. A 'statement' look coupled with a new premium brand would've gone a long way but...opportunity missed.

regional_flyer 4th Sep 2019 05:02


Originally Posted by Saintly (Post 10561246)
Is it fair to say that VA Australia is heading down the Ansett path as in could VA Australia cease to exist? I know its a weird question but we all know VA Australia isn't do8ng well and hasn't done well for a number of years.

VA Australia? Virgin Australia Australia?

AerialPerspective 4th Sep 2019 05:48


Originally Posted by non_state_actor (Post 10561339)
I agree with the sentiment however getting retrenched from a corporate job isn't like being retrenched as a pilot. If you are in a non aviation role, there are plenty of corporate jobs down the road in your field. A friend of mine resigned from his job simply because the head office moved a few kilometres and affected his commute!! So culling 700 odd jobs, of which many are probably redeployed anyway, can't be thought as the same as retrenching pilots. Basically if an Airline Captain gets retrenched it's going to be the end of their career in Australia as a Captain. They might be able to collect an FO job somewhere but unlikely they'd ever be a Airline Captain again. If you're an accountant, work in finance, HR etc, you can just move to another company probably on the same train line.

In addition, I don't think anyone is vilifying those being made redundant... no one on here knows who they are but the airline does appear to have a lot of 'timer servers' who add zero value to the company as regards providing a return on shareholder funds... this is after all why the company is in business. Lot's of people are made redundant or rather their positions are, every day. It is a very sad and stressful time but that doesn't mean people can't comment on what can assist this airline in getting to where it needs to be... the alternative is to continue to carry a section of personnel in the company that may result, if retained, in ALL of the personnel losing their jobs ultimately. Perhaps people who have no 'real' job may find more satisfaction in another job or industry. Having been in the workforce for nearly 40 years I believe in most circumstances people KNOW when their job isn't essential and often end up finding more fulfilling careers. Any opprobrium should be directed at the ineffective and incompetent managers that employed so many people in the first place and created the structure that led to bandaid appointments being made... they making those decisions of course, would be the ones being paid millions of dollars per year, along with generous bonuses for delivering absolutely CRAP performance and results... because, you know, we 'have to' pay millions to 'secure the best management talent'... seriously, the money would be better spent on pilots and/or better systems and processes. Let's not forget either that it's not like 750 people are going to be cleaning out their desks all at once, many of the positions will be the result of natural attrition.

AerialPerspective 4th Sep 2019 05:59


Originally Posted by Buster Hyman (Post 10561377)
Yes, when the Ansett. was revealed it was a revelation. Not the first of course but white wings too...:\ A lot of carriers went down a similar path and it is a very common look now. A 'statement' look coupled with a new premium brand would've gone a long way but...opportunity missed.

I think the original Landor BA scheme was also a wonderful change, that grey was different and new... and was much emulated. Personally I think the QF livery that was the best was the 1984 design, not the b--tardized version tinkered with by Hulsbosch who appears to never correct the statement made by others that he 'designed the original livery in 1984'... no, he didn't, it was Lunn-Dyer and Associates in Sydney... specifically Tony Lunn and Ron Dyer. It was a brilliant scheme that similarly was innovative, look how many airlines have copied the continuation of the tail colour down under the fuselage. The triangle motif was brilliant also, the way it was applied elsewhere in both patterns on glass in lounges, stationery and vehicles. I'm not sure the new QF livery is as nice, it needed a refresh but while it's not my favorite, at least it wasn't a shameless copy of the original 1984 design. As for VA, yes, a disappointing copy of various other Virgin branding cues... Hulsbosch again, IMHO not a very good designer. Designed Woolworths as well who was then threatened by Apple for a logo that looked almost the same. At the very least, it would have been nice to see some purple (like the cabins) in the VA scheme but what we have is not Qantas lite, but rather, simply b o r i n g... an insipid tail and insipidly grey-coloured lettering on the side. Raised a few eyebrows at VS when it was unveiled. It's not the worst though, that would almost have to be Singapore Airlines, the one large airline screaming out for a new livery... currently essentially a tinkered version of their 1972 livery.

Blueskymine 4th Sep 2019 07:31


Originally Posted by regional_flyer (Post 10561384)
VA Australia? Virgin Australia Australia?

ATM Machine?

Cunning_Stunt 4th Sep 2019 08:04

PIN number?

VCR recorder?

Summer Lovin 4th Sep 2019 08:46

Will they pay up though?
 

Originally Posted by Arthur D (Post 10560891)


You’re kidding right? No seriously, is this a joke?

Not even Ansett was this irresponsible, and they had flight engineers on 767’s......

I’d be surprised if they pay up. Virgin have a long history of promising the world and not delivering.


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