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Originally Posted by wheels_down
(Post 10495393)
Your missing the point. The point here is the market’s going rate for a LCC Pilot in this country has shifted. You have been underpaid and the Tiger pilot body has fixed that. This is also happening in retail. Woolworths/Wesfarmers are in the process of new Agreements for all its businesses. They are all 10-15% increases over previous awards. It’s the largest shift in the sector ever seen. Woolworths now has a multi hundred million dollar wage increase to absorb. Fly for Jetstar and work 10% harder, fly 25% more people and get paid 15% less than your competitor who isn’t profitable and is operated more as a ultra low cost carrier. Having spoken one on one with reps from AIPA and AFAP I can tell you that walking into the negotiating room and complaining that we are getting paid below ‘market rate’ isn’t going to get us anywhere. I agree that we should be able to argue that with a larger proportion of our fleet becoming A321s we should be remunerated accordingly. The company line is that pay rises will be 3% + efficiency gains. Flying 18 more aircraft with higher MTOWs and 50 more seats is a huge efficiency gain. That + some extra $$ in exchange for more stand by coverage should get us a better deal. |
Originally Posted by ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE
(Post 10495379)
I’m just being realistic. We all know how it will go. The company will offer us roughly the same agreement plus 3% which will be voted down, then an agreement which won’t be great but will get enough of the pilot group to vote yes for it to get across the line. Those that think a bit of PIA is going to make the company roll over and give us a 20% pay rise are kidding themselves. I simply do not understand a defeatest attitiude here. There is no argument in my view that justifies a salary package below tiger. That the company will fight it is irrelevant. There has been a marked shift if the fair market rate and the pay should be reflective of that. And it's not like the pay is substituted by quality of life provisions either. Less days off, longer standbys and the company pushing to own our days off now too? I hope enough of the pilot body has the gumption to stand up to being valued the least when we produce the most. |
A realistic attitude will get us further as a pilot group because it is worth remembering what we are up against. The Qantas IR machine won’t rollover and reward an employee group for taking PIA. In fact, they would probably love the opportunity to make an example of an employee group that holds the company to ransom. PIA is the nuclear option if the company doesn’t bargain in good faith, not the weapon of choice as some believe. Those in the telegram app group chat who are beating the war drums about PIA (when the current EBA hasn’t even expired yet) are simply embarrassing themselves. |
Originally Posted by ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE
(Post 10495431)
A realistic attitude will get us further as a pilot group |
3% + productivity increases (A321neos, extra stbys etc) for increased base pay and/or reduction in overtime threshold. if were as as simple as arguing ‘but Tiger get this, we should too’ why didn’t we do it years ago with QF mainline terms and conditions? Because its not that simple |
Originally Posted by ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE
(Post 10495440)
3% + productivity increases (A321neos, extra stbys etc) for increased base pay and/or reduction in overtime threshold. if were as as simple as arguing ‘but Tiger get this, we should too’ why didn’t we do it years ago with QF mainline terms and conditions? Because its not that simple 3% and giving the company more standbys would be an absolute joke of a result, leaving us not a little, but substantially at the bottom of the airline market in this country, despite being at the top in terms of aircraft size, leg distance, sectors flown and pax numbers. Not to mention the least time off. There simply isn't any credible reason why we shouldn't pursue the market rate. Luckily, I haven't heard of a single line pilot beyond LL entertain any other position. Interesting times ahead. |
More standbys wouldn’t be simply ‘given away’ but traded for increased remuneration/ minimum daily credit.
If we can negotiate that as well as the increased efficiencies of flying larger aircraft more often (should be approx 25 A321s in the fleet by 2022) for more pay I don’t see why we can’t get approx 220K base and reduce our hours. This is would be a realistic way to negotiate to get to the market rate. |
I agree with your post 100% das Uber Soldat
Originally Posted by das Uber Soldat
(Post 10495452)
Your entire point appears to be that we shouldn't be paid fair market rate because it's too hard and Qantas IR are too scary.
3% and giving the company more standbys would be an absolute joke of a result, leaving us not a little, but substantially at the bottom of the airline market in this country, despite being at the top in terms of aircraft size, leg distance, sectors flown and pax numbers. Not to mention the least time off. There simply isn't any credible reason why we shouldn't pursue the market rate. Luckily, I haven't heard of a single line pilot beyond LL entertain any other position. Interesting times ahead. |
Genuine question, how do we know the Tiger EBA is now low cost market rate, what if they go bust in 6 months, or if Virgin only gave in to this as they know they are going to wind it up? This is what Management at Jetstar will say ‘that’s not market rate, Virgin and Tiger are being reckless and will not survive with those costs, we can’t match that as we are heading into tough times’. Not being pessimistic, after being on the pilot side of the equation for 3 different airlines and 6 contract negotiations (never again) I have always found the pilot group can be divided 3 ways. 1 - get scared at any bluster from the company and just want to settle at the first offer, will not participate in PIA. 2 - the group who is willing to negotiate hard for modest and realistic gains, even if it takes 12 months, and are willing to admit it is a two way street, would take PIA if every other option is exhausted. 3 - The ‘Lets take PIA’ now as we have told them we want a 20% pay rise and they haven’t immediately agreed, ‘just tell them that’ (after 3 meetings), itching for a fight. I have seen all three displayed above :-) The trick is finding the middle ground before everyone goes in in their own directions and leaves the pilot group in a fractured position. Judging by the relative length of each parties log of claims we can already see a massive gulf in negotiating position which just makes it harder to progress in any meaningful way. |
If they're just going to wind it up in 6 months, why bother agreeing at all (and then having to pay out all the back pay at significant cost). Easier to just drag it out, a triviality.
Realistically a jq agreement is probably 18 months to 2 years away. If tiger is still around by then it mutes that argument. As to your 3 groups, people talk about being in position 3. I hope they are really in position 2 but history suggests to me we'll get position 1 when it starts to require resolve. |
Good summary Ollie! The crux of what I was saying is the more pilots in group 2 the better. |
The most likely scenario is Tiger being strengthened and growing. |
Certainly with happy drivers comes more efficient operations..... The opposite to PIA! Hang on there’s an idea. Them versus us mentality? As part of the QF group are you not (JQ) fighting for closer to QF terms? Yes it appears Tiger have set a standard, well done. Lets not forget the drivers are NOT the biggest cost factor and the odd % or ten doesn’t really make that much difference... or does it? We all know how easy it is to save a few hundred kg’s of gas here and there, be more efficient, push that OTP. Look at it over fleet size. Anyways we all know I’m now ranting, it all means nothing without unity. Again Tiger well done! |
Assuming 6 weeks AL per year 10.5 months x 60 hours is 630 per annum /$215,000 =$341.00 approx per hour. That’s more than year 3 787 captain in QF . Or am I missing something? Obviously there are some contractural differences ,but based purely hourly rate which the 787 flying will eventually become in all bases ,sounds like a great result. Well done Tiger pilots . |
Originally Posted by Danny104
(Post 10495837)
Assuming 6 weeks AL per year 10.5 months x 60 hours is 630 per annum /$215,000 =$341.00 approx per hour. That’s more than year 3 787 captain in QF . Or am I missing something? Obviously there are some contractural differences ,but based purely hourly rate which the 787 flying will eventually become in all bases ,sounds like a great result. Well done Tiger pilots . The overtime rate is $170ph after 60 hours. 84% higher overtime rate working in easier conditions; makes sense, especially when comparing to JQ carrying their 230 pax vs 170 odd on a 73. |
Doubt you’d be able to sell a pay rise based on increase in seats. I think your best bet is salary comparison and the profitability of your group (massive). More than likely you’ll have to go down the PIA path in the end. Best if luck. |
Airline cash flow is a fickle beast.
Airline management knows pilots can destroy positive cash flow. Their strategy in the previous decades, buoyed by unlimited supply of pilots was industrial wedges: Separate owned entities to lever terms and conditions. Worked extremely well. No longer. Try not to focus on hourly rates, focus on the package, costed to put a pilot in a seat. IR will want pilot attention on what suits their narrative. It is extremely difficult to generate operating revenue with aircraft chocked and pitot covers on. |
What would all this extra money be worth without better conditions! Our conditions need a massive over haul as much as we need a pay rise. |
Good work by a cohesive pilot group, 16% is a great result.
It does make me wonder though why a struggling LCC with a questionable future would agree to such an increase. But when you think about it this is going to cost the Qantas Group a lot more than Virgin. Without doubt this will end with the Jetstar pilots in PIA, and so they should, they are without doubt the hardest working, and probably most qualified (Dual Type, Low Vis, RNP, etc etc) narrow body pilot group in the country at the moment and they earn the least. Colleagues that are working there that I usually find are conservative and company oriented are already talking about the possibility of PIA. This will cause huge damage to the Brand (I know there is not much brand value there) and also come at a huge financial cost to the Group. This will play right into the Virgin Groups hands. Smart move me thinks! I think if you add to this the issues with the SH agreement, and the upcoming LH agreement there are some turbulent times ahead for the Qantas Group. I think Alan has called his bluff too early on this one, no one cares about a $2000 sign on bonus anymore. There also seems to be a definite slowing down of negotiations as the Qantas group waits with fingers crossed for the upcoming economic slow down. The next 18 months are going to be very interesting in this industry. |
Ancdu don’t quote me but one reason might be because there has been talk of merging all the flying. A while ago I heard the company wanted the ability for all pilots to fly together and that separate groups was inflexible. So I think vaa might have a different idea of how they want to run it to qf. Joined seniority list is the first example of this. Also the tiger list is pretty small so the payrise isn’t as “painful” on the balance sheet as it would be for jq. It certainly presents an interesting scenario when it comes to your negotiations. The timing couldn’t be better for you. |
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