Yes Indeed.
Seems the former AIPA president and now stream lead (is that into the face of his collegues?) enjoys executive first class staff travel privileges. Yes that’s staff travel.
Told he recently bumped a senior Captain back to economy on holidays. Not bad for a junior FO. Guess if you sell out your colleagues and morals it comes with benefits.
Makes you wonder what else he will receive for the upcoming negotiations also. Might already have it.
Interesting to note the objections from current AIPA executives about not wanting a conflict of interest agreement signed.
Regardless of its legality it makes you wonder that at the very least it has some moral benefit.
Terrible look to switch sides directly to negotiating against the very people you pretended to represent. Geez you’d want to be s*&$ hot on the line and in the simulator.No one likes a turn coat.

I doubt that there is anyone in QF who would do that.

I agree , I think it’s more likely that one would find themselves drinking on their own on over nights. I believe that AIPA also top up the salary of the incumbent president which IMO makes it even more morally bankrupt to change sides after such a short time. The bottom line is that AIPA has just become another arm of Qantas management.

CM went from Aipa President to chief pilot in a matter of days didn’t he? I don’t remember a single mention on pprune of that. Chief pilot is a much more senior position than whatever NS is doing.

WK went from aipa president to management in a few months if I recall correctly?

Many current and former management pilots pilots were either aipa execs or on the aipa com. The reality is that people’s interests can also change over time.

NS has been out of aipa fot 2-3 years now. He was there when the LH EBA received 82% approval. If a majority of pilots hasn’t voted yes then that deal wouldn’t have happened. At the end of the day, don’t vote for whatever EBA proposal comes your way if you don’t like it.

I’m already voting no.

Colonial,

Let’s recap the EBA process.

1. The aipa eba team that does not include the President is endorsed by the aipa committee, which itself was elected by the aipa membership. Looks pretty democratic to me so far.

2. That same eba team that does not include NS reached an in principle deal Qantas that gets presented to the aipa com. The that deal doesn’t change terms and conditions on exisiting fleets aside from signifantly improved allowances and some small improvements to home transport and lounge access. Yes it also contained an 18 month wage freeze but so did the dozens of other EBAs across the the Qantas group. It included terms and conditions for the 787 that met a business case. The 787 is currently a much more popular choice than the A330 and it doesn’t even have a Sydney base yet. All the Capts and FOs on the 787 seem pretty happy so far from discussions with them. Your comment about the ‘loss of bidding rights’ is interesting. You clearly prefer super seniority for rosters over the 787’s PSN - so while that might be a loss to you, I’d say many people see it as a win. Yes the 787 terms removed 4 pilot night credits and kept some for 2 and 3 pilot ops. The 787 also has a higher hourly rate than the 380. This was all presented upfront to everyone who endorsed and voted on this eba.

3. This deal was put to the elected aipa com which endorsed it on from what I understand was something like a 90% basis. Where in this process so far has there been no democracy or some unilateral act by NS?

4. The proposed deal was then voted up by 82% of the long haul pilots. Short haul pilots were ineligible to vote. If they were, I would guess it would have been closer to 90%.

That’s democracy. If you don’t like it then run fot aipa office on your platform. At what point in this process for NS unilaterally Impose anything on the pilots? Every stage of the process involved a significant majority of the com and the pilots approving the deal.

If NS has the super powers of being able to impose his will on other people then I’m not surprised Qantas offered him a job!!!

Not everyone shares Rafed De’s BLF-style militant union views on who should be able to take on new roles. Borghetti went from Qantas to Virgin. The head of the AFL players association has gone into management at the AFL. FAAA officials have gone to work tor Qantas management. This kind of thing happens all the time in life.

Rated, i think it’s you and knobbycobby who need to be careful. Especially any suggestion that training and checking pilots at Qantas should be failing people for industrial reasons (see knobby’s post above). Such behaviour would be illegal and would expose someone to serious repercussions.

Your suggestions that he somehow didn’t do a good job aren’t supported by the evidence - the most important piece being the overwhelming support for the main eba negotiated during his tenure and subsequent popularity of the 787.

And such things absolutely have happened before. Going from aipa President to chief pilot is a far more powerful position. The chief pilot has much more sway over negotiations than any company negotiator.

And yet NS took the 1st available opportunity for upgrade to B787 FO on the very conditions he Championed and an overwhelming majority voted YES for.:rolleyes:

The thread was about an ex AIPA President And FO who now has F11 staff travel that trumps a Captain.
He’s not a Captain. Be drinking alone I’d agree.
Most pilots don’t consider this good form to put it mildly. It’s embarrasing trying to argue it’s ok.

Yes Wayne Kearns went on to work for Qantas but it wasn’t to become the lead company negotiatior right away. Wayne spent a lot of the time in various manager roles before becoming deputy Chief Pilot. Wayne and those before him won and protected a lot of conditions whilst at AIPA.

Manning achieved a lot for pilots also. Under his leadership AIPA achieved 5:30 MDC and a lot of improved conditions for commuters, a lot of improvements to MGH too. Dixon lured him to Chief Pilot as he would have been too effective as AIPA leader when he needed to start Jetstar.
Good deal for the A330 at classic plus 5% for a smaller airplane. Presidents Duggan and Jackson also achieving big improvements to MGH and also pay for the A380. Strong EA teams under their leadership.
Cant recall them falling for a lesser EA that was needed to secure airplanes.

Safe won no extra conditions during his leadership. Traded away protections of night credits and overtime. The biggest trades in the contract.
Yes the hourly rate may be higher but those with a year two understanding of mathematics can work out it doesn’t compensate for the loss of overtime.if your take home pay is less, the hourly rate is just a number. Whilst he’s not entirely responsible, the negotiating team under his leadership traded away the most in AIPAs history. It may have been voted up 80% but that doesnt mean it was a good outcome nor or a good deal. Maybe a very good sell granted. The rosters shown were best case scenario showing very little long range flying. Working harder for less. The Ex President did sell the EA for Qantas extremely hard so perhaps he has earned the first class ticket.

For all their flaws Wayne Kearns and Chris Manning were great AIPA leaders who won and protected conditions for pilots.
They were earmarked by Qantas because they presided over EAs that won big improvements. They were formidable opponents and better on the company side.
Credit must also go to the negotiating teams they lead.

NS is not in the same league as a Kearns or Manning. Great salesman for the Qantas agenda as AIPA President and rewarded accordingly.
Nothing more.

These comments are completely ignorant of the economic and industrial context in which WK and CM were aipa presidents.

During WK’s tenure the airline was government owned with no public shareholders and did not need to compete for public capital and shareholder returns. There was no jetstar, cobham did not exist and LCCs were virtually non-existent around the world. The airline was effectively a public service employing public servants.

CM presided over a pre-jetstar, pre-GFC and pre-Joyce period with significantly less international competitions for Qantas. There was no huge increase in Emirates, Qatar and other capacity into Australia that wold eventually make life much harder for QF international.

Criticise the EBA as much as you like, but it opened the door to the promotions we are seeing now and it was approved by an overwhelming majority of long haul pilots. If you seriously think Joyce was going to publicly set a business case requirement for the 787 and then back down from that you are naive.

Have a look at today’s results for international. EBIT down massively and an operating margin of 2%. Such things didn’t matter in the WK era and mattered much less in the CM era.

I’ve no issue with you criticising the deal but at least be fair about the very different environments in which they were negotiated.

Indeed! Jimmy Bow-Tie from memory was on around $500kpa. Napoleon would spend that on a daily breakfast, and the money has to come from somewhere. What is an understatured, over ego’d young CEO about the Street to do? Rape the Company of course, he really has little choice.

Now to something a little more relevant in relation to Nathan’s precious F11+++.

In the book of Exodus thirty pieces of silver was the cost of a slave who was killed. That I find quite significant in QF terms.

Logically, therefore 1 slave = 30 pieces of silver at current exchange rates.

At least you could then invest your 30 pieces, unlike a seat on an aircraft which is gone forever. But maybe we shouldn’t be too keen to judge young Nathan merely on his staff travel triumph. There may well be the opportunity to appear on the Napoleonic Balcony on a future dated Street Appearance with the Great Man as well - we just don’t know the extent of his negotiating powers.

Nice one Nathan.

Tuner2: Cut Qf out of aspirational pilots in Oz and I see big problems for (want of a better word) The Outback. Very concerning IMHO.

“If you seriously think Joyce was going to publicly set a business case requirement for the 787 and then back down from that you are naive.”

Absolute Rubbish Beaver. The issue is you’ll just fall for anything Alan Says. Cause he’s been right about Red Q, Jetstar HKG etc etc. What other work groups had to meet the business case for the 787?
Manning faced a recessionary environment post 9/11, albeit Australia narrowly avoided it.
A lot of airlines went to the wall. Ansett included.
Manning and AIPA were faced with Ansett 767 rated pilots out of work offering Dixon to do the work for Half the pay.
No fair work protections back then either. Dixon even threatened Manning with it but he didn’t flinch. Lucky it wasn’t you back then as President. You would of panicked and we would be on 50% less with no Min Daily Credit.
In that environment Manning and his negotiating team got 5:30 Min Daily Credit, a higher MGH and improvements to the contract.
AIPAs own economist said pilot costs are only 1-2% of the operation at the recent roadshow. If you seriously believe the whole deal hinged on a pilot EBA your a gullible fool.
Majority of pilots voted yes to many SH EBAs, according to your simplistic logic this infers that SH pilots have a good deal.

Re the Ex AIPA president switching teams and getting F11 First class travel as an FO. Good luck to him however
Crew are talking about it everywhere. Does not pass the pub test IMHO. 99% of pilots would agree.
You seem awfully defensive of him Beaver. Bit close to home?

Answered above but in a nutshell Qf has at the very least helped with dreams/aspirations/promotional opportunities of pilots throughout Australia since Qf was actually dreaming of expanding beyond Winton/Longreach. Import pilots from overseas and that comes to a crashing halt.

Both the company and pilots want the various EBA’s agreed upon. However, as good a negotiator as NS may or may not be, his presence and this thread highlights the unintended consequence of his involvement.

My crystal ball tells me no EBA is going to get up. I feel for the numerous people doing the hard work. The company simply doesn’t want to respect and acknowledge the shifted attitude. The company won’t recognise the costs already occurring because the industrial war on all employee groups is considered more important.

Of note the VIC metro firefighters have only now had their certified agreement stamped by fair work and guess what...it expires again in 6 months. The new frontier is a “slow bake” strategy. PIA is yesterday’s game plan because as individuals the people have the true power. The only question left is whether the pilots are willing.

​​The “slow bake” is also underpinned by baseless implied inducements. Whether they be carrots or sticks, the company will try to get inside the heads of their staff and make them second guess their resolve. Unions have their work cut out for them, I hope they have the stomach for a fight.

...and overtime plus night credits would have saved us all?
What are you smoking?:rolleyes:

Overtime gives you the pay, night credits reduces the pain!
It is the extra flying due to no night credits that will affect you. :(

The same aircraft, flying the same routes at the same time would have just as many night hours regardless of the contract. It’s only the pay that changes.

The only real restriction is 900 hours a year. The company choose what the divisor will be and they can make you do just as many night time LA’s on the 744 or the 789.

Night credits are about pay not health.

Beg to differ. Night credits reduce the numberr of stick hours required to be flown when on a 4 person crewed flight. Example, with a 170 hour divisor on the 787 that w will be 170 stick hours , on the 747 on Syd/lax/Syd it’s 146.

Isn’t that why the 787 plannng divisor is 155 instead of 170 on other fleets?

Yeah, and divisor is 175 on the 787 right now!