If they RIN off the 747 totally it will get very interesting as they have always wanted a two year return of service after checking out before retirement. With the training system stretched to breaking point what will they do with people who can’t give them two years return of service? I know this is hypothetical but I doubt it has even entered their thoughts.

Concur with the assertion. Airlines through the European continent are struggling. The genesis of this problem was demographic.

Previous shortages were a result of the business cycle, but whilst the prevailing demographic remained dominant (in terms of numbers) then cyclically shortages were short term.

Problematic as we have explained numerous times, which although resulted in lots of detractors is that this time is different. Their adversarial/union avoidance model of HR/IR is ill suited to handle what is now a full blown structural shortage.

Airline management have presumed that unlimited supply would facilitate sufficient leverage to drive down labour unit cost.

Rest assured the more agile and aware operators were awakened a long time ago. Australia and Qantas are neither different nor exceptional. It has simply taken a while longer to manifest itself in the antipodes.

Qantas laying the groundwork as it has first been felt in their regional airlines, next will be the 737 and then progressively the more senior fleets.

The pattern at other airlines is no different.

I’ve had 7 RINs so am a bit of an expert. All bets are off in a RIN. Freeze periods are company discretion anyway.

Understand that and thank you, but it’s a question of best utilisation of the training system for a limited return unless the USA goes to 67 retirement. I know they never want another RIN as the last one was such a debacle.

Yes, but in the case of the 767, everyone was being RINned. I expect that there were a couple of mechanisms at play that decided which slots people would get. I presume though, that you didn’t displace anyone, but were awarded the slot...which is a different animal.

How on earth did you manage 7 RINs?

And rather sadly, I have to agree with your comment about ‘this mob’.

I wonder how much difference 67 would really make. I suspect that they do their planning based on everyone going to 65, but isn’t the average somewhere around 63.

The planning has been so bad that I’m told now they are using 62 as the age for planned retirements. IMO with medicals etc it’s probably about right.

Vacancies are due out by the 15th. There won’t be 620!

40 odd 787 and a handfull on other fleets. Of course, if these rumoured 6 787’s are firmed up, then with residuals, it may get to that kind of a number.

All of this BS is like watching a captain start to get a bit uncomfortable in their seat when the fuel is looking marginal at the destination due to them deciding to go min fuel!

If the company had more of an interest in why some of the male pilots were getting knocked back by HR in the internal transfer process then maybe there wouldn’t be this issue. I can’t blame our guys heading off to Virgin and Emirates when they get shafted by the mothership.

Including residuals, of course. The slots advertised are always significantly less.

Slots are out...

42 on the slug and 34 on the 330 plus the 787 etc. 97 in total

Which should yield...maybe 200 residuals in the next round?

I was thinking maybe 400 total from that depending on so shifting

Seriously??? Guys heading across the road to fly the 737? Or going onto the 777 as an SO? :confused:

Qlink I guess...

I'm surprised if they are conservative enough to use 62.

So if life at Qantas is a sh1tshow and Virgin is a joke on the verge constantly, where does one go for a career in this industry??? If The two premier carriers are such a joke what the hell are you to aim for?

Try being contented with what you have and remember there is always someone out there less fortunate than you!

I guess if you have already spent the time and money getting trained, aim for a seat before the music stops, otherwise look for a 21st century career as the best and brightest are currently doing.

If the rumoured 6 787s are ordered they’ll need to do an additional allocation. Suspect 15-20 additional Captain and F/O slots to commence training from April next year. That’ll take the slots up to the 600 mark.

Those numbers look about right. That FSO should create around 400 movements give or take. Plus 200 initial SO endorsements (I think they said 200 recruits) that would add up to the 600 odd they are expecting without the need for another allocation.

Can you folk at Qantas provide a rough guess as to the training outcomes delivered in the last year?

Does Qantas have the capacity to train anything like 600 per year?

It would appear axiomatic therefore, that if Qantas can't train anything like that number, then a type freeze is entirely plausible.

Extensive outsourcing, I guess not from the transformation wastage budget though. They need to work on making the outsourced training integrate back into the qf world much, much betterer.

But no, they can't do 600. It's also a quarter of the mainline pilot group.

Some courses, s/o initials and transfers may be included in that number but use far less resources.

That will be interesting with every other airline seeking to do exactly the same to meet their crewing requirements.

Where is the available sim time?
Available sim instructors?

A very pertinent comment. There is no easy fix. From sources inside Qantas, a really interesting 'specimen' is the 'stream leader' for this little pilot school project. Amusingly with a large ego to support, the scale and scope of the structural shortage may be well beyond the capability of this interesting character. It ought be remembered that Mr Joyce is a very autocratic type individual, quick tempered and it is possible Andrew David is so worried for his tenure, the potential type freeze and expansion of the skilled shortage narrative is more about personal survival than a real solution. They are, as pilots here attest, well dis-connected from actual reality in fort Fumble :D

Mr Joyce has a knack for putting whole companies off side. The 787 training requirement that Qantas wanted to procure externally was never secured. Rather amusing story from connections involved with Qantas' last bungled attempts to secure simulator capacity. :E

Four pages of discussion and the only person pushing the 737 type freeze rumour is you Rated De.

And then you go and cast aspersions on a colleague using the terms 'specimen', 'this interesting character', and demean him with comments about a large ego. Personally I think it's freaking awesome that we have a pretty good strategic head who is a pilot working with the HR and other types to ensure that we don't run out of pilots.

You bang on all the time about how HR people and idiots don't understand the shortage is demographic and the minute we get a pilot in there (with a proven track record) you now start bagging him out.

You make some good points about Qantas and because of that I can ignore or look past the broken record ad nauseam content of your posts. I won't though stand by and have you throw crap at someone who served the pilot body's interests pretty bloody well over a fair period of time.

Want to take a shot? By all means do it. The cheap ones you're taking at the moment though demean your credibility and put you firmly in the 'troll' bracket.

It is your colleagues at Qantas that communicated exactly what the said individual is doing.

It is publicly available on the rather impressive linkedin profile.

We didn't know. Our connections were focused on the extension of the skilled shortage visa and the quite plausible extension of the lobbying in Canberra to include Qantas 737. Coinciding with that is the project investigating how to address what is developing into a critical shortage on a mainline fleet. Qantas have been seeking advice outside Qantas, indeed outside Australia. Bit hard to see that from down there isn't it?

If you personally believe that this 'project' is to benefit your brethren and aimed at the integrity of the Qantas employment agreements then that is your subjective opinion.

Unless we are mistaken, you aren't Mr Joyce in disguise and don't actually run Qantas, so it is entirely possible that Andrew David wouldn't personally tell you what is being considered.

So if not from the 737, from where?

Thinking about the airline's crewing issues, the upcoming cascade only goes to the 787 via (some from) the 330 to the (the rest from) the 737. The 737 is the current home of the airline's future. If there was a type freeze for both ranks from where would the 330 and 787 pilots come? I don't for a second expect that DEC and DEFO positions will ever happen at QF, especially not on widebody aircraft.

That Qantas has to train perhaps an additional 200 737 pilots next year is a natural consequence of both the lost decade and the unavoidable reality that the 737 is the junior type from which all progression must flow. ie: tough ****.

I have to agree that this thread really is bogus. There is no “talk” of this. It wasn’t long ago that “sources inside Qantas” were suggesting that A330 pilots would be frozen, as it’s easier to train 737 pilots onto the 787. So this little tidbit is probably as likely as that. Not to mention to certified agreement issues.

Anyone who was at the last AIPA Retirement Dinner knows why they are using 62.

The average age of QF pilots has never been higher, and nature is beginning to take its course.

62 is confirmed.

Yep. Sure is. So what? I’m not sure what that’s got to do with either an alleged 737 type freeze or your insults against him.


I have no idea what this paragraph means. You’ll need to try again.

Lol. Ive no doubt the project is working out the best way forward for ensuring pilot numbers into the future. That may or may not benefit my ‘brethren’ but thanks for the verballing anyway. If you believe it to be something else then that too is your subjective opinion- one that we’re all too clear about from 480+ posts saying largely the same thing.

Funnily enough we actually agree on what’s caused this shortage and that airlines like Qantas (and indeed most of the industry) have both created this issue and not seen it coming.

Agreed. That logic cuts both ways with your alleged 737 type freeze.

Australopithecus is on the money. There will be residual slots on the A380/ 744 and A330 fleet as F/Os leave those fleets to take up initial commands on the 737. Those vacancies need to be covered from 737/330 fleets due to the vertical promotion issues. If there is a type freeze on the 737 where are these pilots going to be replaced from? DEFO?

Well, QF has just updated their NW18-19 schedules for HBA-MEL which show a continuation of 73Hs replacing the 717s (which had previously been for NS18 only), so one would hope there are enough pilots!

Has there been any progress on the 717 issues?

Are there any new rumors on the future of the 717 operation?

We hope you are right. In defence of the thread, you may care to read the title that it was posed as a question not a conclusion.

The source in this case has provided timely insights. Andrew David may not be talking openly, we do not purport to know. We do know it has been looked at. Whether Qantas attempt to execute or not is entirely speculative. Certified agreements and other obstacles are indeed present. Such a strategy is relatively high risk.

The question though remains if the shortage grows and becomes more evident (and does as is occurring here and in the USA flow up from regional to mainline carriers) and further Operating Revenue reductions follow, the Qantas board level concern may see a radical 'solution' attempted.

We would suggest watching closely the activity of the regional airlines both group and external and see whether cancellations are becoming less easily hid.


Thanks Capt Kremin, retirement intentions are a big concern for major airlines with aging demographics.

Wasn't there once a warning on all Pprune pages about sciolists?

Rated De now has almost 500 posts. He/she has quickly become one of the most active posters in Dunnunda, and specifically in threads about Qantas. I don't claim to have read all or even most of those posts but there are two very common themes amongst those I have read- Qantas needs a new fleet, and Qantas HR is embarking on an undeclared war on its pilots (mostly the 737 pilots).
Leaving the new fleet theme alone, the HR theme has been presented without a scintilla of evidence. In fact, the assertion that started this thread is contrary to the current EBA and Australian law. The Qantas 737 fleet and its pilots are working as hard as possible, training is continuing at maximum and the last report I heard is scheduled to increase to over 20/month next year. To continue Fleet needs maximum support and flexibility of pilots, especially as the short-haul EBA expires. The answer to that need is to start a full-on war? Ask yourself what you would do in management's shoes. Virtually every airline in the world is short of pilots, big money is on offer overseas, and QF HR starts a very public fight that will disillusion all 2,000+ pilots AND require a change in Australian law by a government facing an election next year? That makes no sense. I'll say it because no one else seems to want to (although Keg has hinted at it): Rated De, regarding the topic of this thread, I think you are full of it.
'That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.' (Christopher Hitchens) RIP

Fly on the wall noticing, today we have domestic cancellations because Jetconnect can’t crew Tasman flights.

Seems putting JC planes on the VH register has lead to Qantas pilots getting more flying not less. Sky isn’t quite falling.

Putting JC aircraft on the VH register created an extra 10 mainline commands and F/O slots. Such was the inefficiency of the JC 737 operation. Of course, this exacerbates the shortage of crew on the 737 as the aircraft start to be rostered more efficiently prior to the mainline crew having been trained.

It also forgets the additional 50ish commands and F/O slots should’ve gone to mainline given the need to wind up an operation that was obviously so inefficient. We’ll see what happens over the next few years as JC struggles to attract and retain qualified crew.

To be honest I couldn’t really care about whomever is working in a back office.
It’s not like it’s a Chief Pilot/Deputy or position of critical importance or significance.Its not even a HOFO or a managers role. Regardless of who’s co running it I’d suggest it will be but one finger in a dyke that is the shortage. Not many 457 visa holders interested in the t and c’s on offer at the lower subsidiary’s.
Keg and Rated D both agree on the pilot shortage that is impacting globally. It’s backed up by numbers and facts from Forbes to the Australian and from airline CEOs themselves.
Rather than pontificate on what might happen I’d suggest the time is right to look to improve conditions whilst the timing is perfect. Qantas has turned around now. Billions in profits, bonuses and share price records. The bad days are gone.
Doesn’t get any better than now. SH needs paid reserve and MDC.
The guys and gals deserve no less. Surely we can’t lose both in the doom and the boom.
12 hour day trips with 4 hours of sitting around won’t be tolerated for much longer. As the shortage bites and training at max it will only get worse.

Totally agree with you Knobbycobby. MDC, reserve, pattern protection and sick leave need to be fixed/ implemented this EBA.

Both shorthaul and longhaul EBAs this year - time for a few changes! :)

The company may be willing to give some of these things to short Haul, however in return they will want contactability. I don’t know anybody willing to give that up.