Originally Posted by framer
(Post 10021826)
that depends on what job you are going for.
If you are wanted as an FO then yes. If you are wanted as a Captain then it’s debatable. |
Originally Posted by dr dre
(Post 10021351)
Flying schools in the EU and most of the world can get you up to a standard to fly RHS of a turboprop or jet after 250 hours. Through a combination of proper selection and focused training. It's not the air force. The 150+ of civilian hours of training is waypoint to waypoint, flying the same hour A to B, over and over again. It's very limited training and severely lacking in critical areas that are not known to regulators and covered up by industry players. The instances of inexperienced co-pilots, breaking down in early events in high stress human factors scenarios goes largely unreported. I'd go as far to say it's an industry cover up. I don't believe the risk is worth taking in Australia. I can't believe its being pushed by pilots? Here we have a small window where experience is of value and the hard lessons of other countries ( Coglan etc ) can be presented in an argument in favour of improved pay and conditions for pilots. |
Originally Posted by Gnadenburg
(Post 10021955)
I don't believe the risk is worth taking in Australia. I can't believe its being pushed by pilots? Here we have a small window where experience is of value and the hard lessons of other countries ( Coglan etc ) can be presented in an argument in favour of improved pay and conditions for pilots. So what's the solution then? With the known shortage of GA jobs in Australia for fresh CPL's to bridge the experience gap, where is this experience going to come from? Do we accept that the majority of new CPL's in Australia will have to go overseas to get the GA experience? Or accept that Australia is just incapable of fostering new pilots and that the majority of Airline jobs, regional and mainline will have to come from overseas? |
Do we accept that the majority of new CPL's in Australia will have to go overseas to get the GA experience? |
Originally Posted by ViPER_81
(Post 10021962)
So what's the solution then?
I've just flown this week with young pilots who have "fled" Australia having flown with these "General Aviation" with jets companies. The stories are horrific. The contempt and lack of respect from management from some of these companies will only drive further shortages. |
Originally Posted by Gnadenburg
(Post 10021955)
Here we have a small window where experience is of value and the hard lessons of other countries ( Coglan etc ) can be presented in an argument in favour of improved pay and conditions for pilots.
The US 1500hr rule was one of the most knee jerk reactions ever. It’s caused regional airlines to basically recruit anyone with 1500 flying hours and a pulse to occupy the right hand seat of an E-jet (even people with previously disqualifying conditions like drink driving convictions are being snapped up) and then upgraded to Captain at the bare minimum 1000hrs FO time (just over a years flying) even if they believe they are not ready/competent enough for a Captaincy. If I was in the US frankly I’d avoid flying on one of their regional carriers. Not worth the risk. |
Right let's sort this out. The 1500 hour was more to do with lifting pilots salaries and conditions than having experience up the front. A regional FO at the time of Colgan made 18k a year. Thats food stamp wages. Pilots couldn't afford to move out of home. They were sleeping in crew rooms. Thats what happens when you put 250 hour kids in jets. They work for nothing.
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Originally Posted by pilotchute
(Post 10022022)
Right let's sort this out. The 1500 hour was more to do with lifting pilots salaries and conditions than having experience up the front. A regional FO at the time of Colgan made 18k a year. Thats food stamp wages. Pilots couldn't afford to move out of home. They were sleeping in crew rooms. Thats what happens when you put 250 hour kids in jets. They work for nothing.
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Originally Posted by ViPER_81
(Post 10021962)
So what's the solution then? With the known shortage of GA jobs in Australia for fresh CPL's to bridge the experience gap, where is this experience going to come from?
Do we accept that the majority of new CPL's in Australia will have to go overseas to get the GA experience? Or accept that Australia is just incapable of fostering new pilots and that the majority of Airline jobs, regional and mainline will have to come from overseas? I understand general aviation may not be what it was 20 years ago, but it still exists. There is no shortage of us with multi ifr that can’t seem to quite get out of ga and into an airline. The problem is for a few of us, we don’t seem to be what HR want up the front of their aircraft. Maybe we answered a “how does that make you feel” question wrong? We have all the hour requirements, the school marks, the atpls, but the hr recruiters with all their aviation wisdom seem to think they know better. In the past 12 months Airnorth have turned down 2 good friends of mine, that were well known great guys in ga in the NT...they are now doing command training with a much larger regional operator in Aus. |
I'm talking about the culture of hiring inexperienced people driving down wages not the experience of the actual flight crew. Read the post again.
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Seems the problem is Regionals not dropping standards - should they and why (well thought answers preferred).
Seems Regionals should increase pay and conditions to attract lower qualified staff - Where does this extra money come from to pay for extra pay and conditions AND extra training. (Many of the routes already have government/mining hand outs to make them viable as it is.) Seems there is actually no shortage of pilots in Australia at all, just ones that miss a criteria to leap over the next frog. |
Originally Posted by Aviatrix91
(Post 10021371)
I think we are also starting to see a generational shift where newly qualified CPL pilots think it's their devine right to go straight to a shiny jet and uniform instead of putting in the effort and sacrifice to find jobs. No longer are they willing to door knock dropping off resumes, move around the country or do basic jobs like cleaning aircraft in order to get a foot in the door. Instead they want all the money and privllage with out sacrifice or doing any of the hard work it takes to get there.
The supply has dried up...........but the demand hasn't. |
Originally Posted by Flyboy1987
(Post 10022027)
I’m in GA, all my friends are in GA. We are all “stuck” in GA.
I understand general aviation may not be what it was 20 years ago, but it still exists. There is no shortage of us with multi ifr that can’t seem to quite get out of ga and into an airline. The problem is for a few of us, we don’t seem to be what HR want up the front of their aircraft. Maybe we answered a “how does that make you feel” question wrong? We have all the hour requirements, the school marks, the atpls, but the hr recruiters with all their aviation wisdom seem to think they know better. In the past 12 months Airnorth have turned down 2 good friends of mine, that were well known great guys in ga in the NT...they are now doing command training with a much larger regional operator in Aus. |
I herd (admittily second hand) of a couple of e3 guys on the Embraer in the USA that apparently enquired at air north. When they herd they had to pay for their own endorsement (even though they already have one) and the conditions, they could barely contain their laughter.
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Originally Posted by cLeArIcE
(Post 10023197)
I herd (admittily second hand) of a couple of e3 guys on the Embraer in the USA that apparently enquired at air north. When they herd they had to pay for their own endorsement (even though they already have one) and the conditions, they could barely contain their laughter.
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Originally Posted by Brakerider
(Post 10023206)
Bogus info, AirNorth have always paid for the endorsement, albeit with a bond. Though I agree the conditions are laughable to live in Darwin
If Air North offered some decent terms there would be (some) type rated guys willing to come home. They've also flown the aircraft in far more challenging conditions than Air North encounter. |
I know lots of experienced Aussi pilots who would return to Oz for any flying job that offered a living wage for a family. Seems odd to me that the Oz news doesn't mention Terms and Conditions being inadequate.
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Originally Posted by BusyB
(Post 10023245)
Seems odd to me that the Oz news doesn't mention Terms and Conditions being inadequate.
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Originally Posted by BusyB
(Post 10023245)
I know lots of experienced Aussi pilots who would return to Oz for any flying job that offered a living wage for a family. Seems odd to me that the Oz news doesn't mention Terms and Conditions being inadequate.
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Jetsbest,
No journalists with integrity in Oz?!!!! |
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