Post edited

Why are you focusing on one issue? The proposed CEA got voted down for many reasons. And if the company now wishes to take meal break compensation off the table it will merely reinforce how inferior our contract is compared to our peers.

Good job on the NO vote.

Why worry about one clause? Can always vote NO again. If some Pilots are opting to take IEA's, well it shows a lot about their character doesn't it.

This has always been JetConnects problem, or certainly was back in my days there... too many voting yes out of fear, or in the case of some Wellington Pilots, to protect their part-time job!! (Seriously, are those guys still flying ~300 hours a year? :})

Know your worth
 

Post edited

Wait let me stop you there... Meal break money... 300 and something THOUSAND DOLLARS per annum for what benefits exactly?...

...an extra 0.5% in your Kiwi saver? Well that is approximately $90k across the pilot group assuming everyone took 8% out of their already ridiculously poor pay packet to actually get the extra 0.5%... remember they’ll match your contribution up to 4.5% so 4% ain’t gonna cut it buddy... why don’t you just take your $2k or $3.5k a year and save that... you’ll be better off.

Oh and then there is spending some of the other 300 and something THOUSAND DOLLARS on buffing up the entry FO pay... but wait a minute... Why am I spending my meal allowance to improve a pay scale that shouldn’t even be in the contract to begin with?

Should I go on?

Let’s just all be thankful that the pilot group wasn’t swimming in the coolaide fountain and get on with negotiating an acceptable contract instead of an insult.

Post edited

... not to mention the Cobham proposal has just been overwhelmingly voted down.

Oh, this’ll be good....

Or Qantas mainline 737 :E

No one held at gunpoint!
 

I don't have a dog in the fight but I think 'exploitation' is a bit of a stretch.

It's hardly a job in a gulag or salt mine at gunpoint!

Are the remuneration and associated conditions below par? Absolutely, no question. But when suitable staff can be found for the conditions on offer in a free, democratised country then that is a definition of a market rate.

The real question is what to do about it. There are really only two possible options. Reduce the supply of suitable pilots willing to do the job for the conditions on offer (i.e. quit/don't apply) or organise cohesively and negotiate a fairer deal.

There will always be limited good jobs in this part of the world and strong pilot industrial cohesion is usually elusive.

I genuinely wish you guys a fair outcome.

PG

How do the real wages compare when you factor in the top NZ tax rate of 30% compared to nearly 50% in Australia?

Should really just be comparing wages in NZ.

Post edited

Is there not a 18 or 24k retention payment per annum? Or is this just at present and going to disappear?

The retention payment has been rolled into the base salary primarily I believe because where an employee took leave immediately after their retention payment was made their base salary was hyper inflated for their annual leave period. Something to do with how payroll works.

Yet don’t be getting too excited because the incentive flight hour payments are based on the base salary minus the retention figure and are fixed for the term of the agreement meaning over time inflation will degrade the hourly rate for incentive...

What’s more because the retention bonus has been rolled into the base the higher duty allowances such as the flight examiner duty allowance has been reduced from 16% to 15.6% to account for the increase in base salary... better not pay those pesky flight examiners too much lest they get too big for their boots.

Did someone mention cost neutral?

WOW :sad:

Forget about all the Pilots who left a few months shy of their retention, costing themselves (but saving the company) thousands of dollars.... no, let’s go after the few who manage to get leave right after their anniversary :D::rolleyes:

No wonder JC is haemorrhaging Pilots to other carriers.

I thought every captain at JC would be earning well more than 200k a year.

The actual take home pay would be better than is suggested.

Be more than a Network or Cobham captain over here.

Post edited

What pilots get paid in Aussie has SFA to do with what the pilots at Jetconnect get paid.

How their pay and conditions compare to pilots doing similar jobs (Virgin, Air NZ Jetstar etc), in New Zealand is what matters.

You need to be comparing apple with apples. They are New Zealand pilots employed in New Zealand on a New Zealand contract.

I think Aussie pilots need to realise that by and large they get paid better than in most other parts of the world. Good on you for being able to achieve that, but just because you get paid well it doesn't translate that your conditions will automatically flow into other jurisdictions.

One of Ansett New Zealand's downfalls was the generous salary packages they brought with them to New Zealand from Australia.

Comparing Apples with Apples
 

Post edited

That’s utter crap 27/09.
How many hours do you fly is what should be asked. Productivity? Hours at work? Duty? Qf short haul is probably double the duty or more for equivalent flight time than Jetconnect. Flying at the moment is woefully inefficient. 4 sector days 6 hours pay 12 hours duty for example is not uncommon. Total Package for some very hard working Captains on the 737 is north of $400k. For that 1000 (Flight) hours/yr and duty in the order of at least on average 180hrs/28 days. In other words 18-20 days at work per 28 day roster. Most will earn around 280-300k/yr. Of course at least 35% goes to the government unless you can write it off!

I agree with 27/09
Apples with Oranges.
A valid comparison is with Air NZ A320, Virgin NZ, and Jetstar NZ

Jetconnect: The Aussie Apple in NZ
 

Jetconnect doesn’t operate anywhere else ex NZ but Australia on routes that used to be operated solely from Australia with flights that still technically originate from Australia as per the schedule and branded as being Australian.

So if you want to compare the Jetconnect Apple with Apples of a similar type then you need to compare it to all the other contracts that QF pays to do its bidding no matter how rotten they may be (You see what I did there).

How many hours in the seat for the money? It’s not that hard.

'Suitable' is a relative term. I would suggest that 90% of 'suitable' pilots join Air NZ/Qantas and stay until retirement. At Jetconnect it would be lucky to be 5%. The high level of churn is not good for maintaining experience levels and quite frankly I think Qantas customers want experience. Look after your staff and your staff will look after your customers.

Hi PG, I think your definition of “market rate” is too simplistic. The market itself is rigged! It’s not a free market and democracy has very little to say about it.

QF can set a substandard offer because there has been a systematic attack over the last decade or so both in NZ and Aust on the legal options for workers to organise and withhold their labour. NZ and Aust are both in contravention of International Labour Organisation Convention no.87 which permit industry wide sympathy industrial action. Also, both countries have made it illegal to withhold labour outside a small legally defined window, again in contravention of the ILO.

You have to ask yourself why wage growth is at a historical low while executive renumeration is at an all time high... I think workers in general are being exploited by this manipulation of the “market rate”.

Well whatever they end up with will be the market rate but the market in question is certainly a long way away from the concept of a free market. People who espouse the benefits of a free market normally don’t acknowledge that they rarely if ever exist.

Can anyone give any insight to how things are going with the new CEA? I am looking at shortly applying to both Jetconnect and Virgin and just wnt to make the best educated decision if I was fortunate enough to be offered something by both parties (coming from a regional turboprop background with what will be a very long wait for any jet progression with current company)....
is JC inevitably going to be absorbed into mainline? And is job/career security an issue within the forseeable future with these changes?

So in future, any Australian pilot looking to join direct entry on jets with Qantas or Virgin, will need to move overseas?

so basically your saying take the job for what it is.. A jet job within NZ with potentially quicker commands than other places and earning a good enough wage to support a modest lifestyle?

Err, no?
This thread is about Jetconnect in NZ, not Qantas or Virgin in Australia.

Aren't they intertwined? I was referring to the fact that a direct entry jet job at virgin oz these days goes through nz, and that if JC merge seniority with Qantas mainline, the same would likely be the case for joining Qantas.

Tank, I hope you're right.

Im intrigued, be prepared for what? In the grand scheme of things im a pretty low hour turbo prop fella, staring down the barrel of about 5-7 years as a turbo prop fella before a shot at jets with current outfit. Im not a spring chicken, a late aviation bloomer, with kids, a wife whos also a turboprop driver but well up the seniority list for a jet gig, but ultimately wants to work part time. So From here on out im here for a job that has quick progression (both position wise therefore financially too). Im happy to be a line pilot that turns up to work to do a job and go home when i finish. The idea of a career has changed these days anyway, now there are a few options in NZ. Im more interested in job security and lifestyle (not in auckland but a short 2 hours commute)

Can only assume you're referring to Air NZ and are currently a Link Pilot?

What makes you say you're 5-7 years from a Jet Job? Low hours? Or is it because Tag & Release is creating a bit of a seniority based backlog? If it's a the latter, then that's something many of us warned Air NZ about repeatedly when they came up with this wonderful idea. With 600 Link Pilots and 1100 Jet Pilots (roughly), the simple fact is not every Link Pilot will get to fly a Jet for Air NZ, as that's about 20 years worth of retirements.

Personally, I left the Links as soon as I'd done 12 months of Command time. I was similar to you with a family and mortgage to pay and the Links (historically) simply didn't pay enough to keep me around. Many of us left for Jet Job within NZ and plenty more went overseas, most notably to Cathay.

Anyway, JetConnect... they should be the best job in NZ for those who want to be home every night. Flying the Tasman with an average return time of about 7 hours should see you working 10-12 days a roster and spend the other 16 or so fishing. So ask yourself, why do they have such a massive turnover? Why did they have to fight to get 10 days off per roster? Why did a large portion of their Captains, including C&T Captains, head to China, the ME.... even Air NZ as SO's?

I'm not saying don't go there.... but don't go there assuming it'll be a career. No one really knows what QF's long term plans are for JC, but I'd say it's unlikely they'd ever get on the Mainline Seniority list or Contract. Job security is probably assured for a few more years now they're on the VH rego, so the next question will be what happens when QF retire the 737-800? That's the history of JC really, they've never been able to look more than a few years ahead.

I will say however, Air NZ is paying attention to the current mess that is recruitment.... both Link and Jet. There's been problems with Recruitment for years, but now it's costing them money. I don't know what exactly is going to change, the obvious solution would be to pay you guys enough to make you think twice about J*/JC/Virgin but that costs money so probably wont happen. A Jets just another Aircraft type, and the novelty eventually wares off... faster than you might think. If Air NZ were to increase the T&C's of the Link Group, might be worth hanging around.

Yeh all very fair comments and things that ve thought about a lot. Im very far down seniority and due to my hours still about 2 more years for a turbo prop command and then another year for jet eligibility and prob another 2 years for tag and release. Ill be mid 40's by then and ive quickly realised that a jet is a just another plane (ie: dont have shiby jet syndrome never have) but i do have aspirations of moving up the ladder a little bit. And well i may as well get paid more than twice my current earnings to do a similar job in terms of hours (prob less duty time at JC) with the chance of having more time at home. I guess the toss up for me is which OTHER jet company. For me the hopeful choices are JC and virgin both with pros and cons (depending if i get interviewed and offered a job) a few people seem to think things are OK at both

All fair points. Depending on how low your hours are, you might find you're up for a Command in the Links before a Jet Job comes along anyway. We all get stuck somewhere in our careers. I joined the links with the Command requirements so didn't have to wait long (took a less than desirable base). I'll never forget the comment one of my colleagues made to me.... said I was lucky to have joined with such high hours as they had to spend longer as an FO to get the ATPL requirements. The fact that I got those hours slogging in GA while they were on a T-Prop went completely over their head.

If I had to choose one of the 3, with the plan to stay in NZ, then I'd likely look at J*. Virgins going broke (last I heard), JC is simply a crew provider to QF while J* has more routes and A/C than QF mainline. It's entirely possible all 3 will still be operating 30 years from now, but if I had to bet which one was most likely to survive, my money's on J*. Variety is also a factor, I personally couldn't fly the Tasman for the rest if my career without going mad with boredom.

Best of luck in whatever you decide. Ultimately, they're all good jobs and pay much better than your current gig so cast a wide net and see what happens.