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Air NZ regionals hemorrhaging
Sounds like huge quantities of Air NZ regional pilots are looking elsewhere and leaving the group. Word is the lack of progression opportunities within the company and better wage elsewhere is helping out? Any first hand info out there? Still a good option to sign up, or better of getting on with one of the Australian carriers?
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There is also there have been a number of highly qualified, very competent link pilots who have been through the interview process and have been rejected from Air New Zealand Jet.
A lot of the younger regional pilots are looking at these highly regarded pilots within the links who aren't successful at Jet and are thinking "If they can't get in, then there isn't much hope for me." The world requires more pilots than what they are producing at the moment and Air New Zealand isn't the be all and end all job it once was. But then the link airlines aren't the job they once were either, a lot of people are wanting out because flying for a link airline no longer fits with the lifestyle they once had. |
I'm not familiar with the nuts & bolts of the NZ pilot employment scene but saw this ad saying "Visa Sponsor" yesterday. It's for paying members of the website and I'm not one so details aren't available. Could it be related to the subject of this thread ? Are visas commonly offered to foreign nationals:
Dash-8 Rated / Non Rated Captains - New Zeland (Visa Sponsor) (MEMBERS ONLY) 13 Jun , 2017 From this website: https://www.latestpilotjobs.com/jobs/ |
What sort of coin are the Dash/ATR link pilots on? Surely in today's day and age things can't be that bad...
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Originally Posted by donkey767
(Post 9802358)
What sort of coin are the Dash/ATR link pilots on? Surely in today's day and age things can't be that bad...
A lot of Link pilots, Captains particularly, have worked/stayed in the Links because they like the lifestyle and or work/life balance that living in a regional centre gives them. With the decision of Air New Zealand to centralise the bases these pilots are reassessing their options, some are looking at jobs that allow them to stay where they've built their life. Those that go the the main centres, usually Auckland, decide they may as well get a job on a jet that pays more money and or gives them a better work life balance. No wonder there's an increase in pilot turnover for the Links. |
Originally Posted by 27/09
(Post 9802410)
The coin isn't so much the issue, it's where you're based is the big deal.
A lot of Link pilots, Captains particularly, have worked/stayed in the Links because they like the lifestyle and or work/life balance that living in a regional centre gives them. With the decision of Air New Zealand to centralise the bases these pilots are reassessing their options, some are looking at jobs that allow them to stay where they've built their life. Those that go the the main centres, usually Auckland, decide they may as well get a job on a jet that pays more money and or gives them a better work life balance. No wonder there's an increase in pilot turnover for the Links. I'd say the two causes of people looking elsewhere is a combination of this and the apparent lack of career progression through to the Jet Fleet. Sure, the company is in a time of growth, but when damn good Captains / Trainers are being rejected form Jet Interviews it makes you wonder. The whole industry is expanding and recruiting. If you can go elsewhere, earn more and have a much clearer path for career progression it's hard not to look over the fence. Especially when your peers who started at the same time as you are now earning almost twice as much as A320 Captains with Australian airlines. |
Originally Posted by bafanguy
(Post 9802335)
I'm not familiar with the nuts & bolts of the NZ pilot employment scene but saw this ad saying "Visa Sponsor" yesterday. It's for paying members of the website and I'm not one so details aren't available. Could it be related to the subject of this thread ? Are visas commonly offered to foreign nationals:
Dash-8 Rated / Non Rated Captains - New Zeland (Visa Sponsor) (MEMBERS ONLY) 13 Jun , 2017 From this website: https://www.latestpilotjobs.com/jobs/ |
It is legit, it is on the Rishworth site, Jetstar Regional is willing to sponsor pilots for the Dash 8 as they can't recruit enough.
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I wonder if the foreigners will pass the psychometric testing unlike the locals which just get milked for the $ of doing the test.
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DeltaT I don't think they have charged recently for the online testing, jesus they must be short if they are offering sponsorship. Their expansion in NZ must be delayed due to crewing issues. Has anyone who has done the q300 f/o interview/sim heard back from HR? Pm please.
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Originally Posted by Jbrownie
(Post 9802721)
...they must be short if they are offering sponsorship. Their expansion in NZ must be delayed due to crewing issues.
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Originally Posted by bafanguy
(Post 9802761)
So, offering visa sponsorship is highly unusual in NZ ?
You have to wonder whats going on. |
Originally Posted by 27/09
(Post 9803271)
Unusual, in fact I'd say unheard of before now. I'm surprised there's even a need now as I think there must be sufficient local candidates.
You have to wonder whats going on. |
I'm sure someone in the know could shed some light on this, but I've been told J* regional are having to pay QLink Captains an absolute fortune to operate in NZ.... i.e. more than J* NZ Pilots in some cases. This is due to them being on their Aussie contracts plus a fat bonus.
Plenty of local Kiwi Pilots looking for a T-Prop job, but very few of them would be qualified for a DEC apart from Nelson Pilots jumping the fence to stay in a regional base. If they're sponsoring visa's for FO's then that certainly would raise some eyebrows. |
just heard a tour operator in OZ is looking for a Dash 8 or similar, to operate in OZ for 12 months from end of 2017, with something like 450-600 hours guaranteed. Presume it would be much easier for a New Zealand airline to do this, than an Australian airline. Would Air NZ ? It wouldn't be stepping on VA toes, especially now as VA getting out of regional/turboprop ops.
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I can only speak for 2 individuals I know who interviewed recently for FO positions. They we're told that because they hadn't flown 150 hours in the last 6 months they were ineligible. This was after both their interviews were rescheduled twice to even later dates. Neither were told of this policy.
With this mindset I'm not surprised they struggle to recruit. |
Originally Posted by pilotchute
(Post 9803463)
I can only speak for 2 individuals I know who interviewed recently for FO positions. They we're told that because they hadn't flown 150 hours in the last 6 months they were ineligible. This was after both their interviews were rescheduled twice to even later dates. Neither were told of this policy.
With this mindset I'm not surprised they struggle to recruit. |
So, offering visa sponsorship is highly unusual in NZ ? |
Not sure how an Australian company, flying VH registered aircraft can sponsor crew in a foreign country ?...
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Originally Posted by intake
(Post 9808969)
Not sure how an Australian company, flying VH registered aircraft can sponsor crew in a foreign country ?...
aircraft registration has nothing to do with who is doing the employing |
Originally Posted by InZed
(Post 9814386)
I don't think it's just Air NZ regional having issues. All the airlines are unaware of the market at the moment and don't realise that the 'potential' of a jet job in a few years time isn't enough anymore to keep guys from leaving! When Qantas mainline are looking for 1000+ SO's in the next few years; Virgin are looking for 200+ guys as well; Jetstar jets are desperate both in NZ and AU... Regional carriers need to look at what they're offering ASAP to prevent the exodus that's happening.
I have heard from a mate that just started at Jetstar regional that there are apparently only 30 pilots on the books there. IIRC, the amount of guys leaving they said were like: four to Jetstar NZ or AU and are set to leave by the end of the year; there are another three about to leave for Virgin NZ or AU in the next two months; three are into Qantas mainline with on leaving in the next couple of weeks; one is going to Airwork on the 737 next month; and two are off to JetConnect. They are in a dire situation, and have reduced the schedule from July. I have also heard through another mate, that their cancellation rate is running at around 15%, so about 1 in 8 flights are cancelled. I have heard that they have lost 10 guys already since the operation began 18 months ago! And they were having crisis meetings about whether to pull the pin. Apparently a few QL pilots put their hands up to come help out. But it seems like the company hasn't resolved their issues, and are set to lose another 13 by the end of the year. I can't see how they can continue to keep operating like this personally. All the Qantaslink pilots that have been coming over, are sick of the working conditions apparently, crap or no food provided, and being away from home for entire rosters. I was told that Qantaslink put out information about NZ tours when the operation kicked off to all the QL captains, and only a few put their hands up. Almost all of the guys doing it have left and are refusing the come back. So they don't seem to be able to rely on the QL guys to come over and top up the roster anymore and schedule to prevent cancellation of flights. I have heard that their duties are horrible. Five sectors followed by nine hours rest (that includes driving to and from the airport, so guys have been regularly getting 5 hours sleep apparently) - followed by a 6am start and another five sectors! I heard that the ATSB has been involved with their roster pairings and while they aren't breaking any laws, the company has been slowly trying to reduce these shifts as apparently too many guys are going fatigued in the morning and causing cancellations. Some have also apparently been getting three day trips (double overnights) now! I have heard that their crew are regularly running around 90 hours a month and some have been having weeks off as they're hitting their annual limits. Apparently the guys have had no pay rises since the operation began, they are getting dicked around with allowances and the crew are constantly having to track their own allowances and request the ones not being paid. The FOs are apparently all pissed off and leaving as the company are not upgrading them, in preference for external (visa holding) captains joining the company (see the Rishworth ad above). And apparently all the guys working on their EBA have left now as the company wasn't prepared to negotiate reasonable terms with them! It seems to me that they don't realise how many guys are leaving and are about to leave! My mate that just started has an interview with Virgin next month and plans to pay out the bond to get off the sinking ship. I've heard that two of the new FOs in line training currently are awaiting VA interview dates as well. Highely doubt they are 'about to pull the pin' from the NZ operation. There has been strong movement in the industry and like always eventually all the positions will be filled up and the recruitment drives slowed down. |
I think brownie is probably right but I have to admit I haven't seen such a wide spread demand for pilots in the last twenty five years ( wasn't paying attention before that).
A big Middle East carrier is reducing flights due to pilot numbers. Some Australasian jet operators have been cancelling flights due to pilot numbers, I'm not sure if the same is happening in the USA but I know they are recruiting heavily. China is offering bigger and bigger salaries to attract jet Captains. I see either Ryan or Easy advertising on a regular basis over in Europe...... I think that unless there is a major event like the GFC in the near future that the Airlines will be scrapping pretty hard over pilots with more than 3 or 4 thousand hours. It certainly will be interesting to watch it play out. |
Originally Posted by framer
(Post 9814600)
I think brownie is probably right but I have to admit I haven't seen such a wide spread demand for pilots in the last twenty five years ( wasn't paying attention before that).
A big Middle East carrier is reducing flights due to pilot numbers. Some Australasian jet operators have been cancelling flights due to pilot numbers, I'm not sure if the same is happening in the USA but I know they are recruiting heavily. China is offering bigger and bigger salaries to attract jet Captains. I see either Ryan or Easy advertising on a regular basis over in Europe...... I think that unless there is a major event like the GFC in the near future that the Airlines will be scrapping pretty hard over pilots with more than 3 or 4 thousand hours. It certainly will be interesting to watch it play out. Time to ride the wave boys n girls! |
The events of '08 were a once in a generation event (in OZ at least). A Flash in the pan as it turned out. 12 months of rampant recruitment and mayhem, followed by a decade of mediocrity. The regionals were cancelling flights on a daily basis, and GA was dealt a blow from which it has never recovered.
Airline managements, as is their way, have learnt absolutely nothing. In fact, one notorious regional operator in OZ regularly congratulates themselves for their "handling" of the last shortage. I'm afraid this time it's very different, and we are unlikely to see a new GFC to pull them out of the ****e. This is the long and inexorable decline in the wider participation in the profession. The poor deluded bastards who are incapable of grasping the new reality will wake up tomorrow and think, what the Hell just happened! |
Makes me wonder! What about those with several thousand hours on a 'bus or a Boeing. It would seems that they're so overqualified, to an airline in Oz, they're completely useless!:(
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Sounds like the original topic of this post is getting worse if anything. The amount of Kiwi's I've ran into doing interviews in Melbourne lately has been insane! All Captains or senior F.O's who have had enough. All with the same story of rubbish schedules and no career progression into the group. Apparently the new contract isn't looking good for either the ATR or DH8 pilots either. I can see why these guys are jumping ship, I started flying after the bulk of them, now have a better schedule and in many cases earning more. Considered a world class Airline, I'd have thought they would have sorted this kind of issue years ago? Now add the pilot shortage, this could be a wake-up call coming down the pipeline pretty soon...
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FO can pull $2200-2500 a fortnight without ATPL subjects, around $2600-2800 with the exams. That includes allowances.
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That actually sound ok for an ATR F/O.
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Originally Posted by framer
(Post 10149380)
That actually sound ok for an ATR F/O.
I’ll admit, there are some valid concerns about career progression for Link Pilots, and it appears both ALPA and Air NZ are looking to solutions. I would not be surprised to see Link Pilots on our seniority list sometime soon. |
Originally Posted by dctPub
(Post 10149299)
Cheers Kickin. Is that after tax?
Does one end up back at home base after every duty or are there a couple of overnights in the mix? |
Originally Posted by ElZilcho
(Post 10149497)
It is. I’ll admit, there are some valid concerns about career progression for Link Pilots, and it appears both ALPA and Air NZ are looking to solutions. I would not be surprised to see Link Pilots on our seniority list sometime soon. Is that a solution? Will we see Second Officers or A320 FOs bidding for an ATR command? Will you ever get guys who have experience from either RNZAF or overseas Jet time coming back to join at the bottom of a seniority list that has 500 (total guess) turbo prop pilots ahead of them? |
Originally Posted by Slezy9
(Post 10149678)
Is that a solution? Will we see Second Officers or A320 FOs bidding for an ATR command? Will you ever get guys who have experience from either RNZAF or overseas Jet time coming back to join at the bottom of a seniority list that has 500 (total guess) turbo prop pilots ahead of them? The questions you’ve raised, along with countless others are why it’s not so simple. Ive even heard we might eventually see “Cadet” S/O’s as a point of entry to the Airline who then join the Links after a few years. Once again, this is just gossip, so the takeaway message is, the issue is being looked at. Air NZ needs to offer a career progression to Link Pilots while Simultaneously keeping experience in the LHS. Under the current system, there’s virtually no penalty for going to J* (etc) in the interim. Group Seniority solves some of the current issues while creating others. |
If they don’t bring a joint seniority list, possibly Air NZ link could become the last place you’d want to be over the next few years, if you are focused on a career with AirNZ jet? Similar situation with Qantaslink Pilots wanting Qantas mainline, or the Virgin ATR drivers. Virgin NZ/Jetconnect/Jetstar Nz ranks to be cleaned out again to fill places on the 320 in the coming months??? |
Originally Posted by dctPub
(Post 10149299)
Cheers Kickin. Is that after tax?
Does one end up back at home base after every duty or are there a couple of overnights in the mix? InZed is bang on. A group seniority list would stop a whole lot of link pilots from leaving if they knew they had a number in the jet list already. That way there's still a chance of getting a wide body command if ya join after you're 40 (I think it is around 20 years for a wide body command atm?) assuming that's what you're after. Also would stop pilots leaving for Jetstar/Virgin trying to get in the side door as an external. |
How will the senior link guys, who've been there forever, feel when they are suddenly at the bottom of the list and potentially not senior enough to retain that captaincy? |
Originally Posted by Slezy9
(Post 10149811)
How will the senior link guys, who've been there forever, feel when they are suddenly at the bottom of the list and potentially not senior enough to retain that captaincy? As I’ve already said, it’s merely a possibility but if joint seniority alone was the cure all we’d have already seen it. |
Originally Posted by Slezy9
(Post 10149811)
How will the senior link guys, who've been there forever, feel when they are suddenly at the bottom of the list and potentially not senior enough to retain that captaincy? |
Originally Posted by Konyagi
(Post 10149700)
If they don’t bring a joint seniority list, possibly Air NZ link could become the last place you’d want to be over the next few years, if you are focused on a career with AirNZ jet? Similar situation with Qantaslink Pilots wanting Qantas mainline, or the Virgin ATR drivers. Virgin NZ/Jetconnect/Jetstar Nz ranks to be cleaned out again to fill places on the 320 in the coming months??? |
Originally Posted by dctPub
(Post 10149084)
Guys and gals,
Can anyone please shed some light on the pay scales at Mt Cook? What sort of schedules are pilots flying in the 3 main bases? I cannot find anything other than ballpark figures. Cheers FO will enter at level 1 unless they have their ATPLs, from that point they go to level 3 pay of the required category and stay there until years of service catch up. There is also no notional seniority at Mt Cook as they was negotiated away many many moons ago. Because of that when you get a command you will go to level 1 Captain pay and don't carry years of service across to the other seat. It's a great airline to work for but make no mistake it's one of the lowest paying ATR gigs around. You'll also be based in Wellington or Auckland as Christchurch is highly sort after, so if you have a family you need to factor the expense of living in these cities. FO(1) $63920.39 plus 4% super (note to the Ozzies looking, super is salary sacrificed in NZ so the 4% will come out of your pay) Once you have your ATPLs $75903.00 CA(1) $111856.78 In real terms after tax per pay (yearly/fortnight) $51124.00 / 1966.30 minus your 4% super, your union fees (1.2%) and student loan repayment if you have one. After ATPLs = $59935.01 / $2305.19 Captain first year as above = $84023.52 / $3231.67 |
Originally Posted by BO0M
(Post 10153401)
Heres the exact figures................allowances are anywhere between $0-$500 a pay
FO will enter at level 1 unless they have their ATPLs, from that point they go to level 3 pay of the required category and stay there until years of service catch up. There is also no notional seniority at Mt Cook as they was negotiated away many many moons ago. Because of that when you get a command you will go to level 1 Captain pay and don't carry years of service across to the other seat. It's a great airline to work for but make no mistake it's one of the lowest paying ATR gigs around. You'll also be based in Wellington or Auckland as Christchurch is highly sort after, so if you have a family you need to factor the expense of living in these cities. FO(1) $63920.39 plus 4% super (note to the Ozzies looking, super is salary sacrificed in NZ so the 4% will come out of your pay) Once you have your ATPLs $75903.00 CA(1) $111856.78 In real terms after tax per pay (yearly/fortnight) $51124.00 / 1966.30 minus your 4% super, your union fees (1.2%) and student loan repayment if you have one. After ATPLs = $59935.01 / $2305.19 Captain first year as above = $84023.52 / $3231.67 Thanks, great info. I assume those numbers at the bottom don't include allowances. Can you give us all an idea of average fortnightly / monthly pay total in hand is ? More details on the allowances would be great. |
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