Alan's next war. Approaching a terminal near you.
Lets have a crisis shall we? Or is that " we'll show them."
So it seems despite agreed EBA's, Alan is positioning the troops for another all out assault on the front line "team members" The 787 introduction is the battle ground, with arguments being created to bring on the next manufactured crisis. The engineers and pilots collectively in their sights for daring to press for eba agreed terms and conditions. A new entity is the threat and rumour. Although Jetstar is keen to step up to the plate. The only question is why?:ugh::ugh::ugh::ouch: |
The only "assault" on the 787 conditions presently seems to be the issue regarding the tech crew rest area config? Is that what you're alluding to?
The word from the "front line troops" at least in SH is we hope the change back to old guard leadership in AIPA doesn't f@ck things up for the majority. Don't be so prescious AIPA and create a war over perceived lack of "consultation". Do we really expect the Company to pay for a non standard rest area when, if the extra Pilot wants to sit, a curtained off option in the cabin is already available? Apologies in advance if this is not what you are starting this thread about. |
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a curtained off option in the cabin is already available? Don't BA pilots get a Business class seat in the cabin for ULR ops? Not everyone will want to sleep in the ceiling coffins on time off ,especially during daylight ops. The seat in the crew rest area has limitations as well ,hence the push for a business class seat. Even the business class seat if agreed to , so I'm led to believe , isn't contractualy compliant , yet the much maligned AIPA appear to be willing to negotiate, so I'm told. Seems the company is very good at forcing and ignoring contractual obligations as it deems fit. The direction of their choice appears to revolve around how costs affect management bonus's ! Yet from what I hear the AIPA reps are anything but combative. How often do you just "roll over " so as not to "rock the boat". I say go ahead and employ outside Long Haul. Can't wait to see the resultant redundancy costs! Didn't the last EA also contain a clause that stated that B787's in Qantas colours would be flown by Qantas mainline pilots? Wasn't it old scrotum face who also said "you only get what you bargain for". Have you seen what's on offer for crew rest? For an ULR aircraft in conjunction with FRMS , I believe this issue is very important and well worth the elbow grease expended by these "old guard AIPA" ( wasn't it only the new President the only change to the AIPA Executive lineup?, hardly a wholesale sell out to the Old Guard) to get the best possible outcome for the crew who will be operating this equipment for many, many years to come. |
Is this what AIPA is getting upset about Blown?.....:rolleyes:
From the Company the B787-9 comes with a standard crew rest facility, which includes the two bunks and one seat within the crew rest area. In addition, there is a second seat known as a high comfort seat with a footrest in a curtained off area adjacent to door L1. The seats are intended for partaking of a meal, reading, watching a movie or to be used as a precursor to sleep. Both seats are Taxi, Take-off and Landing rated. |
That's it, a glorified cabin crew jumpseat near the galley.
Not even remotely compliant with contractualy agreed to conditions. Have a look at what other airlines are operating ULR ops with. |
He [Alan] is gloating over the EBA deal...
Still, it’s a calculated gamble, one that Qantas’ global competitors will be watching. To generate sufficient returns on the hub investment and on its fixed costs, Joyce will want to add a second daily Perth to London flight – or flights to Paris or Frankfurt – with subsequent 787 deliveries. He’ll also be counting on getting the improved operating economics promised by Boeing and the 30 per cent productivity improvements negotiated with his pilots. He isn’t in doubt. “This thing is going to be amazing for us.” |
The company is trying to set a new precedent with the 787 and this will be the ground work for any new aircraft fleet type to be introduced in the future.
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Chill - No cause for alarm at this stage. The right people are sitting on hands for the time being and watching to see what happens next with FWC. It's not as simple as it might appear. SCC training continues and allocations are allocating. Good faith negotiations continue.
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Don't BA pilots get a Business class seat in the cabin for ULR ops? In any event I know this is an increasingly important issue so good luck. |
Hotnhigh said:
Although Jetstar is keen to step up to the plate. |
Originally Posted by Willie Nelson
(Post 9681692)
Hotnhigh said:
News to me, just saw about twenty of my colleagues today at the Pub and nobody else mentioned it either, sounds like a wind up. |
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CaptainCloudBuster,
Do you speak for all of SH? Would you be offended if someone told you the 787 was a LH aeroplane? Most front line LH pilots are happy that AIPA are attempting what is best for an ultra long range aircraft that will do 19 hour tours of duty. Not panicking like a frightened child without a pair. You'll still get your shiny toy so please don't cry. Perhaps you could look at the company pictures of the procedures trainer to comfort your anxiety? I would rather trust AIPA to obtain what was agreed upon in the Long Haul EA. It's sad that Fair Work is now involved however pilots have been there before. You'd always be welcome to volunteer your time to have a better say if you felt discontent. As Alan stated publicly the pilots have to work 30% harder to fly the 787. Best of luck to the engineers dealing with the Qantas 787 scare campaign, sorry EA. |
Do we really expect the Company to pay for a non standard rest area? QF said we'd get the shiny toy if we signed up to the new terms. We did our part and now they don't want to abide by what was written. I'm in short haul and I don't hear anyone saying we should roll over and let Qantas weasel out of a commitment they made and we paid for. |
Upon reflection, my initial post was an immediate over reaction to the aggressive scare mongering tone set in post 1.
I've spent some time this morning looking through the LH EA and make the following observations with regards to Beer Baron and Knobby's assertions that the Company is not providing what has been agreed to. I believe Iron Bar and MEA332 are right on the money. I'm assuming QF excercised their right under Clause 42.1 to establish a conference to consider changes to rules and working conditions for new aircraft? Studying the EA RM 20.3 shows that nothing has been agreed as yet regarding Crew rest provisions for TOD's expected for the B787? Happy to be corrected Knobby / BB. I think my observation that a return to FWC coincides with a change in AIPA Leadership is a pertinent one and hopefully not a return to the past. |
Originally Posted by CurtainTwitcher
(Post 9681548)
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Studying the EA RM 20.3 shows that nothing has been agreed as yet regarding Crew rest provisions for TOD's expected for the B787? The HCAS (High Comfort Attendant Seat) being offered is a cabin crew jump seat with and additional footrest. The company left out the "Attendant" part of the name when they emailed us about it. I'm sure it was no accident. |
You guys are seriously missing the point. Do you all honestly think money grows on trees?
We need to make cuts, and that means we all must make sacrifices. There are important costs that must be paid for all these important things.... like designing funny white hats, and changing the font on a brand, or painting letters different colours. All these things are very important and cost money you know, more important than who flies or fixes these things. Ask any of the coffee sippers in the QVB building at Mascot. Thousands of them will tell you that. You should all just grow up. |
DragonMan,
What Alan is alluding to is that 787 pilots will have to fly 30% more without the night credits on 4 pilot sectors. Which are the current routes for the 787 namely MEL-LAX, PER-LHR. Also receiving no overtime on ultra long haul routes removes the pay premium for the company. So the higher hourly rate(with no overtime) is still cheaper for QF than a lower hourly rate that includes overtime. It's only if the 787 flies to Asia or short sectors(2/3 pilot) that the balance returns to the pilots favour. Alan knew the 787 was an ultra long haul aeroplane and hence he made those facts known to the ASX(After the EA) which the financial review reported. It's considerably more than a 1% saving. As others have stated, considerable pay and work sacrifices were made in the 787 EA. As I see it AIPA are just ensuring that the crew rest meets the requirements of the agreed EA. Pilots flying a 19 hour TOD through the night are going to need it to be satisfactory! Regardless If your SH, LH, or a pilot who's yet to join Qantas, you want it to be acceptable if/when you or others fly it or not. |
Originally Posted by knobbycobby
(Post 9683151)
DragonMan,
What Alan is alluding to is that 787 pilots will have to fly 30% more without the night credits on 4 pilot sectors. Which are the current routes for the 787 namely MEL-LAX, PER-LHR. Also receiving no overtime on ultra long haul routes removes the pay premium for the company. So the higher hourly rate(with no overtime) is still cheaper for QF than a lower hourly rate that includes overtime. It's only if the 787 flies to Asia or short sectors(2/3 pilot) that the balance returns to the pilots favour. Alan knew the 787 was an ultra long haul aeroplane and hence he made those facts known to the ASX(After the EA) which the financial review reported. It's considerably more than a 1% saving. As others have stated, considerable pay and work sacrifices were made in the 787 EA. As I see it AIPA are just ensuring that the crew rest meets the requirements of the agreed EA. Pilots flying a 19 hour TOD through the night are going to need it to be satisfactory! Regardless If your SH, LH, or a pilot who's yet to join Qantas, you want it to be acceptable if/when you or others fly it or not. |
It'll be 5 days I suspect but your numbers sound about right. There will probably a few two day trips of PER-MEL-PER in there too (5:30 per day). Maybe the schedule will allow them to be done as a day trip- 7:30 credit or thereabouts.
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Originally Posted by knobbycobby
(Post 9683151)
DragonMan,
What Alan is alluding to is that 787 pilots will have to fly 30% more without the night credits on 4 pilot sectors. Which are the current routes for the 787 namely MEL-LAX, PER-LHR. Also receiving no overtime on ultra long haul routes removes the pay premium for the company. So the higher hourly rate(with no overtime) is still cheaper for QF than a lower hourly rate that includes overtime. It's only if the 787 flies to Asia or short sectors(2/3 pilot) that the balance returns to the pilots favour. Alan knew the 787 was an ultra long haul aeroplane and hence he made those facts known to the ASX(After the EA) which the financial review reported. It's considerably more than a 1% saving. As others have stated, considerable pay and work sacrifices were made in the 787 EA. As I see it AIPA are just ensuring that the crew rest meets the requirements of the agreed EA. Pilots flying a 19 hour TOD through the night are going to need it to be satisfactory! Regardless If your SH, LH, or a pilot who's yet to join Qantas, you want it to be acceptable if/when you or others fly it or not. |
about time the LAME;s had some balls been too soft for so long, mmmm if you know what I mean Stevie boy.
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I am with Alan on this one which is very uncool. When I do a ULR flight for 15 hours on the 777 I am sitting in the seat in the flight deck for hours. When it's break time I go to the bunk and lie down on my little bed. Why do you want to take another seat in the cabin that could be paying the bills? I must be missing the facts.
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Not true.
A PER/LHR pattern is longer than a SYD/DFW So as an example Using a DFW pattern that's more conservative than a PER/LHR. Non 787 you would get 39.72 credit hours plus 15.13 hours overtime. That's 54.9 credit hours paid per trip. 787 EA you only get the stick hours of 32.4. 787 you get no overtime. Without night credits 787 you get 7.32 hours less (39.72 Credit hours with night credits vs 32.4 stick) These figures would look worse on a PER/LHR pattern. On this example It's 69% less paid hours per trip on the 787. The higher hourly rate is not enough to compensate for the loss of overtime and night credits. Let's say for example the hourly rate was $100 on the 787. That would be $3240 per trip. The hourly rate on existing types could be only $59 or nearly half and still earn the same. Eg 54.9 CREDIT hours x $59 per credit hour= $3240 So the higher hourly rate definitely does not compensate. If you compare A330 rates for Captains or even 767 vs 787 stick hour higher rate it's significantly less. I remember Wayne Kearns complaining that the hourly rate was far to high in Short Haul. What he knew but didn't admit was that SH pilots often did 12 hours duty for 4-5 hours pay so the hourly rate was irrelevant. If the 787 were flying Asia trips with no overtime you claw a little back from the losses on the ULR routes. But for Qantas the 787 flies ultra long thin routes. The longest Qantas has ever flown. Alan's a mathematician after all. Pilots have been fooled by the appearance of a bigger number that results in significantly less money in your pocket. Nothing can be changed now and it's a fantastic achievement for Qantas. I think Alan Joyce is smarter than people give him credit for. The savings are massive and the productivity significantly improved without night credits. |
Is this a reference to my question?
So on the 787 doing PER/LHR returns at a about 35 stick hours per pattern and 155 planning divisor, I wouldn't be working 18-23 days per 56 depending on whether they are 4 or 5 day trips? Obviously some of those days will be part-days depending on arrival and departure times. Not asking about "what ifs" re night credits or O/T. Just trying to make an educated choice about days a work per BP. Thanks in advance. |
On this example It's 69% less paid hours per trip on the 787. |
Originally Posted by Beer Baron
(Post 9685037)
No it's not. Your own figures show only a 41% decrease.
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Why are you people debating an EA that's been voted on and the vast majority have approved? Get over it. No one is forcing you to fly it.The 787 will not be flying between Mel and Per either according to the engineers I've spoken with. The aircraft will fly Mel- Lax-Bne-Per-Lhr and return the opposite way. Even though I'm in favour of a proper crew rest as per the award, look at what's just happened with penalty rates for the hospitality industry today. FWA, I bet will not be very sympathetic, unfortunately, to a revised crew rest as stipulated in the EA. The precedent has already been set by other operators using the standard crew rest. Not right but realistic.
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The precedent has already been set by other operators using the standard crew rest. Not right but realistic. |
I understand that as the crew rest is a fatigue (safety) issue, Fair Work may not hear it. Unless they can convince FWC it's an industrial and not a safety issue, Qantas may have some jurisdiction problems here. CASA?
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The precedent has already been set by other operators using the standard crew rest. |
Originally Posted by Tuner 2
(Post 9685019)
Is this a reference to my question?
So on the 787 doing PER/LHR returns at a about 35 stick hours per pattern and 155 planning divisor, I wouldn't be working 18-23 days per 56 depending on whether they are 4 or 5 day trips? Obviously some of those days will be part-days depending on arrival and departure times. Not asking about "what ifs" re night credits or O/T. Just trying to make an educated choice about days a work per BP. Thanks in advance. |
But several other operators provide first or business class seats to the pilots in addition to the standard crew rest. BA and UA for example. And they are not flying sectors as long as QF will. Nothing wrong with arguing for one though, especially on a sector like PER-LHR! |
From a rest/risk perspective, let's not forget the other airlines also have 2 capts and 2 fo's who are current....Qantas will have only 2 current/qualified pilots who can land, and two SO's who while no doubt could get the job done if need be, will have spent all their time in the seat above FL200. With TOD's this long, surely adequate rest is something that must be considered. Rest doesn't necessarily mean sleeping either.
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AerialPerspective,
"Any reason why their logo features a Concorde which was never owned, operated or maintained by their members... Just wondering" 3 points.... 1- You say that you're not an engineer and I suspect you are not a pilot either. Perhaps company troll ??? 2- Not a Concorde on the logo, the nose gives it away. 3- I suspect a few of the old Qantas Lames from days gone by who were based in Singapore WITH Concorde licences may have something to say about your statement. So what exactly is your point? McHale. http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/smile.gif |
Thanks dragonman.
Even occassioal180 hour divisors would equate to 5 PER/LHR trips and 25 days worked out of 56. Having always found 4 pilot ops much, much easier than 2 pilot BOC flights from Asia, it sounds quite appealing to me. |
......and CASA's position on the crew rest seats is......?
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