Air Nauru and Norfolk Island Airlines
Apparently Norfolk Island Airlines are to take up AKL-NLK after Air NZ pull out.
The CASA website is really useless for searching but I can't find an AOC for Norfolk Island Airlines. Do they have one? |
Norfolk Island Airlines charter Nauru Airlines
ORFOLK ISLAND AIRLINES PRESS RELEASE In-light of Air New Zealand’s suddenly withdrawing its Auckland service, Norfolk Island Airlines will now bring forward its planned 2017 Brisbane service to include an Auckland service. The aircraft for the service is a chartered Boeing 737-300 operated by Nauru Airlines. Subject to approvals being obtained for the Auckland sector, Norfolk Island Airlines would be able to commence its weekly Sunday Brisbane – Norfolk Island – Auckland – Norfolk Island – Brisbane service in May to provide continuity for the Islands New Zealand visitors. This new service would replace the loss of the Air New Zealand Auckland services and add much needed weekend capacity from the Australian market. Norfolk Island Airlines has written to Senator Nash seeking an urgent meeting to discuss the New Zealand service. Gregg Prechelt Director 16 December 2016 For more information please contact Glen Buffett on + 6723 52268 or email [email protected] |
Looks like Norfolk Island Airlines have started to sell tickets for AKL-NLK and BNE-NLK with a leased 733 from Nauru Airlines.
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Sorry, but excuse me if I don't fall down laughing hysterically... the former 'Administration' of Norfolk which was dissolved by the Commonwealth went on this folly with OzJet and the Our Airline previously. From what I could gather it was a waste of money hand over fist. If Air NZ aren't flying the route any more, it's because there is INSUFFICIENT TRAFFIC to make it viable. Starting another operation isn't going to make it more viable, it's just going to make sure millions more dollars go down the Norfolk sink hole on another 'we want an airline folly'... the last one they brought in a guy who had previously run a failed airline but beside that, there were people who were on the Adminstration who's businesses benefited and the whole thing was a complete and utter waste of money and what happened in the end??? The Commonwealth stopped paying... then we have Islanders complaining that they have had their Assembly taken away... well, maybe that's because of the money that is wasted on this sort of crap and quite frankly the media reports and suggestions of bloodless genocide... please, there are people dying in real genocide around the world and it is inappropriate for this to be said. History repeats is all I can say... wonder who they'll get to run it this time. Someone from the Island who doesn't know squat about aviation but is quick to insist they are experts.
I don't want to be cruel but maybe this is why the Commonwealth government lowered the boom a few years ago. If the Island wants to be independent good luck to them but it just seems that they do these things, they cost lots of money then the hand goes out to the Commonwealth again and taxpayers on the mainland and then all sorts of accusations are made about Australia in the media. Someone tell me if I've got this wrong??? |
Originally Posted by AerialPerspective
(Post 9745467)
Sorry, but excuse me if I don't fall down laughing hysterically... the former 'Administration' of Norfolk which was dissolved by the Commonwealth went on this folly with OzJet and the Our Airline previously. From what I could gather it was a waste of money hand over fist. If Air NZ aren't flying the route any more, it's because there is INSUFFICIENT TRAFFIC to make it viable. Starting another operation isn't going to make it more viable, it's just going to make sure millions more dollars go down the Norfolk sink hole on another 'we want an airline folly'... the last one they brought in a guy who had previously run a failed airline but beside that, there were people who were on the Adminstration who's businesses benefited and the whole thing was a complete and utter waste of money and what happened in the end??? The Commonwealth stopped paying... then we have Islanders complaining that they have had their Assembly taken away... well, maybe that's because of the money that is wasted on this sort of crap and quite frankly the media reports and suggestions of bloodless genocide... please, there are people dying in real genocide around the world and it is inappropriate for this to be said. History repeats is all I can say... wonder who they'll get to run it this time. Someone from the Island who doesn't know squat about aviation but is quick to insist they are experts.
I don't want to be cruel but maybe this is why the Commonwealth government lowered the boom a few years ago. If the Island wants to be independent good luck to them but it just seems that they do these things, they cost lots of money then the hand goes out to the Commonwealth again and taxpayers on the mainland and then all sorts of accusations are made about Australia in the media. Someone tell me if I've got this wrong??? I don't disagree with you AerialPerspective. If Air NZ can't make ALK - NLK work I'm not sure how Norfolk Airlines will. |
86% Australian population. About time NZ stopped doing charity work :E
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Wouldn't be the first route that was operated for reasons other than making a profit, particularly servicing isolated islands, they are usually subsidised by concerned governments.
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Originally Posted by TurboProp2120
(Post 9745498)
I don't disagree with you AerialPerspective. If Air NZ can't make ALK - NLK work I'm not sure how Norfolk Airlines will.
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Whilst I don't know a lot about the AKL-NLK market, I'd suggest that Air Nauru with a smaller aircraft (B733 vs A320) and lower cost structure could very well make a go of it. I doubt they would be rushing into it without doing proper research.
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Originally Posted by chimbu warrior
(Post 9746089)
Whilst I don't know a lot about the AKL-NLK market, I'd suggest that Air Nauru with a smaller aircraft (B733 vs A320) and lower cost structure could very well make a go of it. I doubt they would be rushing into it without doing proper research.
It got complicated because Norfolk Air as it was then didn't have an AOC, thus didn't have an IATA code so could not do anything beyond basically paying for OzJet to operate the route which at the time was codeshared with QF. Likely ON couldn't care less. If they're told they'll be paid x amount of $ per hour and it covers their costs then they don't care if Norfolk don't make a profit, that's Norfolk's problem. The problem with the Island is that there are people there who, let's face it, live a pretty isolated life, they're not 'world-wise' and they think they know everything there is to know about running an airline and even with bringing people in from outside in the past they have completely fallen flat on their face and presumably will do this time as facts don't change. ON likely know that they will get their money either way because likely, as in the past, the Commonwealth will bail them out (the Island that is). To get an idea of the parochialism one only has to talk to a few people at BNE Airport some 10 or so years ago and the type of behavior exhibited by certain persons in a position of responsibility on the Island when confronted with not being able to be checked in... a tirade of foul abuse is an understatement... and everyone would know who I was talking about... that were involved. What I'm getting at is there is a certain arrogance and a demonstrated inability to learn from mistakes. Most of the people on the Island are welcoming and lovely people but there are a small band who have been down this road before and it's always ended in financial turmoil... feel free to offer examples to refute that if someone has them. |
One day a week service it seems...
In the good old days three Super King Airs BNE-LDH-NLK-LEDH-BNE daily plus SYD-LDH-SYD connections to NLK. Extra flights in holiday seasons.. |
Originally Posted by AerialPerspective
(Post 9746156)
Not the case I don't think. In the OzJet days, OzJet flew for a fee and the 'Island' just paid the fees and tried to make a profit out of the cost of paying O7 vs the fares it charged.
It got complicated because Norfolk Air as it was then didn't have an AOC, thus didn't have an IATA code so could not do anything beyond basically paying for OzJet to operate the route which at the time was codeshared with QF. Likely ON couldn't care less. If they're told they'll be paid x amount of $ per hour and it covers their costs then they don't care if Norfolk don't make a profit, that's Norfolk's problem. The problem with the Island is that there are people there who, let's face it, live a pretty isolated life, they're not 'world-wise' and they think they know everything there is to know about running an airline and even with bringing people in from outside in the past they have completely fallen flat on their face and presumably will do this time as facts don't change. ON likely know that they will get their money either way because likely, as in the past, the Commonwealth will bail them out (the Island that is). To get an idea of the parochialism one only has to talk to a few people at BNE Airport some 10 or so years ago and the type of behavior exhibited by certain persons in a position of responsibility on the Island when confronted with not being able to be checked in... a tirade of foul abuse is an understatement... and everyone would know who I was talking about... that were involved. What I'm getting at is there is a certain arrogance and a demonstrated inability to learn from mistakes. Most of the people on the Island are welcoming and lovely people but there are a small band who have been down this road before and it's always ended in financial turmoil... feel free to offer examples to refute that if someone has them. This time they are operating a three class cabin well above Air NZ prices. Example, flying BNE to NLK on 17/06: NIA: $277 - Economy / $525 Premium / $612 Business ANZ: $277 - Seat+Bag / $307 - TheWorks / $372 - The Works Deluxe Return prices are the same. I will watch this incarnation with interest but feel it may be like watching a long slow train crash. Just don't book your tickets in advanced. |
Originally Posted by Chris2303
(Post 9618266)
Apparently Norfolk Island Airlines are to take up AKL-NLK after Air NZ pull out.
The CASA website is really useless for searching but I can't find an AOC for Norfolk Island Airlines. Do they have one? |
Norfolk Is has passed its used by date. Not considered a major destination in this era of cheap air travel and first class resorts etc etc..
Lord Howe is stil an interesting go to place for some.. |
Originally Posted by TurboProp2120
(Post 9746656)
Agreed. The old Norfolk Jet also left a very long line of unhappy creditors, including more than $500,000 in landing fees to the administration.
This time they are operating a three class cabin well above Air NZ prices. Example, flying BNE to NLK on 17/06: NIA: $277 - Economy / $525 Premium / $612 Business ANZ: $277 - Seat+Bag / $307 - TheWorks / $372 - The Works Deluxe Return prices are the same. I will watch this incarnation with interest but feel it may be like watching a long slow train crash. Just don't book your tickets in advanced. The works & works deluxe fares above are economy, not business class I believe. |
thinking about Norfolk, it would be much better if it were designated as an international destination, not an Australian domestic destination.
At present, only OZ or NZ airlines can operate in & out of Norfolk, at least from OZ end (many airlines could operate from NZ end). ON is really an Australian airline, OZ AOC & OZ rego. If Norfolk was designated international (they do have duty free sales already) then many non OZ/NZ airlines could operate OZ mainland/Norfolk/NZ. |
Way back, 1978, Nauru had its own register, C2-RN?, have they given that up now and become Australian registered?
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How many international carriers operating B737 and larger does an island with a population of 2,210 need, before the last person turns out the lights? Champagne tastes on beer money?
Sydney to Norfolk Island is 1,673 km (903 naut miles) and Auckland to Norfolk Island is 1,074 km (580 naut miles). Service frequency is the secret to a successful air service. It seems to me a Dash 8 or similar turbo prop would be the appropriate aircraft for the Sydney - Lord Howe - Norfolk Island - Auckland service? |
Surely an Alliance F70 would of been an better fit, and maybe run twice weekly?
Think one of the pervious attempts had been on an F100 to AKL? |
How many international carriers operating B737 and larger does an island with a population of 2,210 need, |
It goes beyond the immediate travel needs of the local population - there's a significant tourist market to serve as well. Subject to approvals being obtained for the Auckland sector, Norfolk Island Airlines would be able to commence its weekly Sunday Brisbane – Norfolk Island – Auckland – Norfolk Island – Brisbane service in May to provide continuity for the Islands New Zealand visitors. How much more tourist traffic could be generated if the service had more attractive and reasonable service frequency with a smaller DHC-8-400 or as someone mentioned above, a Fokker 70? Been a few operators found they can't make a quid on that air service! |
I saw a DC-4 for sale in the UK. Let's get that service going again...
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I am well aware of the Norfolk Island tourist traffic, but how attractive will a once-per-week air service be to the tourist market? There will be some happy campers if the sole aircraft goes US! IIRC Our Airline (as Nauru Airlines was known at the time) some time back (early 2012?) ceased the service that Norfolk Air had leased it for. The Our Airline service was not subsidised as such but funded by the Norfolk Island Administration (NIA) until the NIA decided to withdraw from any airline involvement. The Australian government, in its wisdom, offered a subsidy to operate SYD-NLK and they have been paying that subsidy to Air New Zealand since. Had they paid that subsidy to the NIA then the Norfolk Air service may well have continued without the loss of dozens of local jobs that it provided. |
Originally Posted by zanzibar
(Post 9749525)
Time will tell and I imagine the operator will react to market needs. Pretty basic business principle, really.
You're out of touch, Nauru Airlines has 3, possibly 4, passenger aircraft and the ability to mount a quick rescue should it be required. IIRC Our Airline (as Nauru Airlines was known at the time) some time back (early 2012?) ceased the service that Norfolk Air had leased it for. The Our Airline service was not subsidised as such but funded by the Norfolk Island Administration (NIA) until the NIA decided to withdraw from any airline involvement. The Australian government, in its wisdom, offered a subsidy to operate SYD-NLK and they have been paying that subsidy to Air New Zealand since. Had they paid that subsidy to the NIA then the Norfolk Air service may well have continued without the loss of dozens of local jobs that it provided. However, it was done properly with a tendering process. When OzJet did it they made a mistake compared with their other contracts, they agreed to fund the ground handling and charge a fee which had a notional amount for ground handling and catering but then with weather nearly always delaying services, ground handlers charge 50 or 100 percent extra depending on the amount of notice and with weather it's normally less than that required in standard contracts (and fair enough, you can't expect a ground handler to pay people to sit around all day just in case). O7's other contracts like Airlines PNG were much better structured in that APNG 'owned' the ground handling and catering contracts and paid them directly and just leased the aircraft and crew on and ACMI basis for an hourly rate. Had O7 done this with NLK, they likely would have increased the sustainability of the operation but the NLK Administration would have gone bust earlier. To be fair, the NLK contract was quickly put together after the O7 all J Class domestic service to keep the airline operating and it was a foothold in the ACMI/Charter market which kept the airline operating. The lesson was learned with later contracts. I am not sure but I assume one of the reasons O7 lost it was because they wanted to do it similar to the CG arrangement when the contract renewal came up and that was rejected. It was probably marginal until they let someone go in there and start touting business class and all these extras which blew the costs out as well (not talking O7, but Norfolk). |
Originally Posted by AerialPerspective
(Post 9749949)
Ah no, I worked for a company that attended the briefing. The Commonwealth I believe was sick of 'deals' being done for air services so along with agreeing to subsidize it, it put it out to tender and Air NZ came back with the best cost/benefit. I assume NZ operate it on the back of a AKL-SYD flight but not sure.
However, it was done properly with a tendering process. When OzJet did it they made a mistake compared with their other contracts, they agreed to fund the ground handling and charge a fee which had a notional amount for ground handling and catering but then with weather nearly always delaying services, ground handlers charge 50 or 100 percent extra depending on the amount of notice and with weather it's normally less than that required in standard contracts (and fair enough, you can't expect a ground handler to pay people to sit around all day just in case). O7's other contracts like Airlines PNG were much better structured in that APNG 'owned' the ground handling and catering contracts and paid them directly and just leased the aircraft and crew on and ACMI basis for an hourly rate. Had O7 done this with NLK, they likely would have increased the sustainability of the operation but the NLK Administration would have gone bust earlier. To be fair, the NLK contract was quickly put together after the O7 all J Class domestic service to keep the airline operating and it was a foothold in the ACMI/Charter market which kept the airline operating. The lesson was learned with later contracts. I am not sure but I assume one of the reasons O7 lost it was because they wanted to do it similar to the CG arrangement when the contract renewal came up and that was rejected. It was probably marginal until they let someone go in there and start touting business class and all these extras which blew the costs out as well (not talking O7, but Norfolk). |
IATA-Code:YE Airline:Yanair Country:Ukraine |
Nauru Airlines has 3, possibly 4, passenger aircraft and the ability to mount a quick rescue should it be required |
Originally Posted by queenofthetasman
(Post 9795504)
If it were my train set: (and if I had any sway at air north...)
0730-0900 - EMB170 - NLK - BNE 1000-1200 - EMB170 -BNE - NLK 1300 - 1500 - EMB170 - NLK - SYD 1700 - 1930- EMB170 - SYD NLK 2030 - 2300 - EMB170 - NLK - BNE |
0730-0900 - EMB170 - NLK - BNE 1000-1200 - EMB170 -BNE - NLK 1300 - 1500 - EMB170 - NLK - SYD 1700 - 1930- EMB170 - SYD NLK 2030 - 2300 - EMB170 - NLK - BNE You must work in the accounts office.. How does your E170 get to NLK to start the day when its in BNE according to your schedule??? |
I just dont see any profitable market that employs a clapped out chinese govt gifted 737-300 (the highest cycle example on earth!!!) or even a clapped out fokker. Not aware of the E170 being ETOPS approved (but could be wrong on that), and for my money I'd prefer to be on a Boeing operated by a carrier with plenty of experience in remote island operations. |
I don't think the E170 is ETOPS but the E190 is.
Weather is a big factor for Norfolk Island. You either need a big enough fleet to be able to absorb the changes or small enough that a cancellation doesn't effect other services. Not sure if it would work for Air North in that case. I find it very interesting the neither Qantas, Virgin or Jetstar have expressed interest in the route and now AirNZ is finding it hard to justify it. |
I believe the pavement concessions out there are an issue. The 737-800 doesn't have a low pressure tyre option, which is why the A320 is a better option(and why VA uses the A320 to Cocos Island). Not sure about the 170 but 190 can be EDTO rated, tho like all things mega $$ and not an easy option for operators(route proving etc). VA and nearly all major operators are getting rid of them for a reason, nearly 737 costs with far less seats.
WX can be terrible out there but the huge amount of diversions has mostly been fixed by the RNP approach out there which gets you down to 360 feet in 2km vis one end and 314 feet and 1.7km at the other end. Issue is as far as I know that JQ/QF/NZ/VA are the only RNP-AR approved operators in this region, anyone else is doing RNAVs with 630 feet and 3.5km vis minimas, which when it's crap in NLK doesn't even get you close. All of the Islands (Christmas/Cocos/Lord Howe/Norfolk) are not viable commercial ports without the government subsidies. NZ has never paid a subsidy for the AKL-NLK and AU isn't going to. Next interesting point is what happens to Lord Howe when QFlink doesn't apply to renew Lord Howe, the Q200s are getting long in the tooth and costly to keep them just for there, what aircraft and operator has the capabilities to offer the service the island has had for years with the Link? |
My understanding is that ON fleet includes the last classic 737's built (ex Air NZ). chinese govt gifted 737-300 clapped out |
Fiji Air could do a tag flight through NLK to AKL and back and make a go of it. Fiji connects to LAX, SFO, SIN, HKG, and OZ up north, so could be good for tourism. Until about 3 years ago FJ used NLK as an enroute alternate. They are set up for that kind of ops.
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Originally Posted by Aloha_KSA
(Post 9797411)
Fiji Air could do a tag flight through NLK to AKL and back and make a go of it. Fiji connects to LAX, SFO, SIN, HKG, and OZ up north, so could be good for tourism. Until about 3 years ago FJ used NLK as an enroute alternate. They are set up for that kind of ops.
I had some involvement with 'the Island' for a time and have to say the behaviour of some of those so-called representatives toward airport staff warranted calling the police... not physical but vile, foul mouthed abuse on at least one occasion, that resulted in a demand for an apology I believe. Unfortunately, I feel for the residents because they are trapped on an Island miles from anywhere with very little contact but that has also made them insular and not aware of the wider world and not able to see the inconsistency in demanding autonomy and not 'calling themselves Australian' but not being backward in putting their hand out for Commonwealth money when the latest high cost airline folly goes belly up. It really is something that people should let go of... let the Australian and NZ Govt. subsidize something but aside from that, these people cannot have it both ways... they can't expect to run their affairs, waste money and put their hands out for more from MINE and others taxes then demand they are independent. For support, I tender into evidence their wholly disconnected assertion that Commonwealth take-over of their administration is a form of genocide... please, there are real people dying of genocidal acts around the world, how dare they call a change of administration that... this is evident of the NLK bubble in which some of them reside. |
And, AP, you feel the same way about the people on Cocos Island and Christmas Island that enjoy ample Oz government support alike the type the Norfolkese are asking for?
on an Island miles from anywhere with very little contact let the Australian and NZ Govt. subsidize something |
Why should NZ subsidise am Australian territory?
We have enough trouble subsidising our own... |
It was profitable with NIA Super King Airs eons ago. Connected BNE/SYD/LHI/NLK
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Under current rules the E170 & F70 are unable to do the job, I want to say CAO82. While QQ has F100s that are capable (by dispensation) I do not know if the dispensation for stretching EDTO to the F70 ever happened.
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Originally Posted by TurboProp2120
(Post 9751500)
I give Norfolk Airlines a year.
A Norfolk Island company that started an airlink to the island from Auckland just three months ago has stopped the service. Norfolk airline ends Auckland flight after three months | Radio New Zealand News |
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