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Here's an article from DL herself.
Pioneer female pilot Deborah Lawrie says mission accomplished in the airline cockpit http://www.smh.com.au/content/dam/im...1637335737.jpg September 27, 2014 - 12:15AM Captain Deborah Lawrie. Deborah Lawrie, trailblazer for women in the Australian airline industry, took a Tiger Air flight out of Sydney the other day with another female beside her in the cockpit. "It was a training trip, part of her upgrade to captain," Lawrie says. "So there were two females up front. There are still not a lot of female pilots, but the number is gradually increasing." It was a far different story in 1979 when Lawrie, using her married surname of Wardley, took Ansett Airlines to the Equal Opportunity board, its first sexual discrimination case. Until then all Australian airline pilots were male, Ansett proprietor Reg Ansett famously saying that females were unsuitable due to (among other things) their menstrual cycles. Lawrie was awarded $14,500 by the board (all of which went on her legal fees) and Ansett was ordered to employ her. The airline appealed to the High Court but lost - and Lawrie eventually achieved her ambition. However she was never a captain. She was still qualifying when the Ansett pilots strike occurred and, along with her colleagues, she lost her job. Today she says that sexual discrimination has disappeared in aviation. "The girls get a fair go," she says. "But worldwide, the percentage of females has never been large. At Tiger Air, 13 of the 185 pilots are female. Six of the 13 are captains, which is a very high proportion." Lawrie saw several reasons for the lower numbers of females. "Lack of role models," she suggested. "And it is very hard to do. Sometimes it means starting off with jobs in [places like] the outback and doing things you may imagine only guys would do." Lawrie, whose marriage eventually ended, was raised in Melbourne and started working life as a maths and science teacher. After Ansett, she flew with KLM then Jetstar where she was based in Christchurch. She now lives in Sydney and is a training captain with Tiger Air, which is owned jointly by Virgin and Singapore Airlines. She remarried last year. However, while discrimination has disappeared in airline cockpits, it may still be lingering in the passenger cabin. Lawrie says that while flying with KLM, the crew told her of a British passenger who was upset the pilot was female. Lawrie had a reassuring chat with him during a transit stop and the passenger picked up her Australian accent. "I think I've flown with you before," he said. Replied Lawrie: "Did you get there last time?" End of problem. |
Pilots get where they are due to merit. The myths of "opening the hairy checkbook" are just that. (Or "feeding the poor in Brazil", nowadays.) I would personally ask the JQ CP how she got the job, when it was never advertised? Why wasn't it advertised? If she is going to pontificate about a selection system she sees as biased, then upon what evidence does she demonstrate that she was the best person for the position?
People in glass houses... get very hot in summer. |
Why would it be up to me to diagnose the problem? I know you're just trolling because you refuse to even engage on what the barriers are to women joining the aviation dusty are that obviously continue to cause this imbalance. ! := :ugh: :rolleyes: PS my daughter is disinterested in flying..... Unless in J/C going on holiday. I've encouraged her. I've told her what's available. I've always had aeroplane models in the house to play with. She however has decided she wants to be a paediatric nurse. Was she born that way? I suspect so. |
[QUOTE]Interesting research paper (written by a female) finds that female pilots have higher accident rates and that…../QUOTE]
You are correct; it is an interesting research paper however I suspect you didn’t actually read it. You will note that a significant result of the study was: “After adjusting for variables included in the model, accident rates for males and females were not significantly different. “ And that: “ . . .as* a direct consequence* of* the statistical results* of* this* study,* airlines* should* make* every effort* to* recruit* and* retain* experienced* female aviators.* ” D.W suggests that “sexual discrimination has disappeared in aviation” and that is probably true. Nowhere have I suggested that airlines discriminate against prospective or presently employed women pilots. However, D.W has been vocal about the lack of participation by women in the industry, a completely different argument. [QUOTE]Youre the one saying there is a problem/QUOTE] Actually, it’s not me suggesting the industry has a problem with gender bias. Many airlines have started programs to solve the puzzle of why women don’t apply to airlines. In recent weeks alone BA and Easyjet have published articles signaling their intent to increase the participation rate of women. Airbus and Boeing have both been in the press expressing a concern for the lack of women in the industry. Airbus in particular see it is a crucial element in reducing the impact of the looming pilot shortage by stating that “resolving the gender imbalance is a crucial element in reducing the impact of the looming pilot shortage”, interestingly enough. And Boeing: “There is such an enormous demand to meet the growth that the gender bias will have to be pushed aside.” Airlines in Asia, ME and even Africa are starting to wake up to the fact that solving a shortage of crew without encouraging women to be involved will not be effective. Heavens above, even Singapore airlines are employing women now. But to you, this is just trolling? |
Put a tax on male wage earners whose daughters don't take up flying or engineering
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Originally Posted by SevenTwentySeven
(Post 9355473)
Interesting research paper (written by a female):
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...Airline_Pilots finds that female pilots have higher accident rates and that "affirmative action programs should not be designed to lower the flying standards for females in order to increase the number of female airline pilots." :ugh: Other studies have found lower accident rates among female pilots. (Comparing ATPL holders in the USA found that women accounted for 1.4% of accidents, when they were 4% of the total pilot population). And Keg, re the old nature vs nurture argument, I doubt many parents would recognise their unconscious, ingrained biases which in turn affect the desires of their children. To those who complain about not getting the best person for the job, Orange Future is absolutely correct - at the moment the entire set up (not blaming any one gender for this, it's just the way society is) makes it far easier for men to follow a career in aviation than for women to do so. Therefore, by discouraging women, airlines are missing the chance to recruit "the best" as they are ignoring a large pool of possible candidates. Since some are supposedly worried about the best person for the job, maybe they should focus on encouraging women in aviation? |
The "entire set up" makes it "far easier for men". That's a broad statement. Please elaborate how so?
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However there obviously is a problem. Can we all agree that females were not born disinterested in flying (A rhetorical question obviously)? Somewhere along the way they have been socialized into turning away from the profession. As I mentioned before, this argument is not to assign blame. Its not our fault, its not Jetstar's fault. I have not suggested that women are not given a fair chance. But clearly there is a problem as so few women see airline flying as a viable profession as evidenced by their participation rate. Is it a problem that men are disinterested in teaching or nursing? Is it a problem that women are disinterested in mining or driving trucks? Society seems to function fine with different genders interested in different professions. Attempting to even out the numbers for no beneficial reason is leftist social engineering at its worst. |
From now on I want to be known as Loretta... Why? Because I want to have babies
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And I'll again ask the question that has already been asked 100 times -- why is the lower proportion of women in flying jobs seen as a "problem" or "puzzle" that needs to be fixed or solved? Why not any of the other roles in the industry that are dominated by one gender, as has been mentioned above?
Women should be made aware at a grass roots level that the industry is not at all discriminatory and if they're interested in a flying career to go for it. Then let the statistics fall where they may. |
There did used to be a female honeycart operator in Melbourne. There were also a few females who worked in the baggage make up area, but I'm not sure what it is like now. But even without quotas etc. the women in Ramp Services were treated the same as everyone else if a role came up in another ramp department.
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Originally Posted by BleedingAir
(Post 9356479)
And I'll again ask the question that has already been asked 100 times -- why is the lower proportion of women in flying jobs seen as a "problem" or "puzzle" that needs to be fixed or solved? Why not any of the other roles in the industry that are dominated by one gender, as has been mentioned above?
Women should be made aware at a grass roots level that the industry is not at all discriminatory and if they're interested in a flying career to go for it. Then let the statistics fall where they may. Whilst the industry is not deliberately discriminatory the barriers to women achieving at the highest level are many. The fact that people consider flying a man's job is enough to put off a few from pursuing the career. Then there is the fact that a women who succeeds is put down by some as having succeeded by opening her legs - this sort of toxic innuendo is also harmful to confidence (and confidence is a big part of succeeding in aviation.) The fact that some (and very few, but it only takes one to really put someone off a career in aviation) men will use their position to recruit women and then put pressure on them for sex also puts another barrier in front of a woman applying for a job - are they being recruited to be treated as an object or is it a genuine chance for a job? The fact that the industry is male dominated mean women have far fewer role models. The fact that women have a limited time to have children and during those younger ages is when a huge committment to the career is required in order to gain experience, must also be an added barrier. If the processes required to get the job are putting off women to such an extent, then maybe those processes need to be examined and modified? It is not only the fault of men, women also are responsible for perpetuating myths about job suitability. This is not an attack on one gender but simply an attempt to logically present some reasons why things need to change. |
I think Sprite is quite correct about team diversity. I seem to recall a number of studies carried out by the RAF and USAF back in the 80's and 90's in regards to reaction times due to audible oral warnings and orders issued by the voice of the opposite sex. In all instances the reaction time and decision making process was faster and more correct when the warning was issued by the opposite sex to the pilot. That led to a few changes within both organisations with the aircraft warning systems. At that time almost all air force pilots were male so a female voice was used - I believe a few of the women who lent their voices were Kim Crow and Sue Milne - both of whom gained something of a celebrity status. Their instructions saved lives, without doubt. Take from that what you will.
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At that time almost all air force pilots were male so a female voice was used So is J* replacement Manager Training Standards mandated (sorry, womandated) as a non- male? |
[QUOTE] I doubt many parents would recognise their unconscious, ingrained biases which in turn affect the desires of their children./QUOTE]
It starts at birth. Gender bias is deeply engrained, subtle, sometimes imperceptible but very powerful. And we see the results in aviation. [QUOTE]Is it a problem that men are disinterested in teaching or nursing?/QUOTE] It is if there is a shortage of applicants and it is if you want the best person for the job! |
There are a lot of opinions on this thread, and some pointless arguments, primarily because this thread has lost direction.
It started with an "aim" from JQ of equal opportunity. Their "aim" has been interpreted differently, hence the wide variety of opinions on this thread. Of particular note, I don't think a single contributor has had the opinion that "piloting an aircraft is a man's job". That is interesting of itself because my first employer (many decades ago) would never have employeed a female, on the grounds that it was a man's job. He said as much to me on several occasions. So, perhaps we should restrain this thread to the topic at hand, and the multitude of other topics that have arisen should be discussed in new threads. Such as: 1. The male vs female desire to pilot an aircraft. 2. The male vs female desire to pilot an aircraft for a living (not the same thing). 3. The physical barriers for (1) or (2) 4. The cultural barriers for (1) or (2) 5. Whether "reverse discrimination" or "affirmative action" is desired or warranted to change (1) or (2). 6. Nature vs nurture... The Norway video linked early in this thread deserves a discussion of it's own. 7. Has the JQ CP's comments achieved nothing other than to get pilots and the public talking about the subject, and if so, has she achieved progress? The number of pages of this thread could indicate so. P.S. 2Egg: In all instances the reaction time and decision making process was faster and more correct when the warning was issued by the opposite sex to the pilot. |
Good post Derfred. Quite right too.
In answer to your question, I really do not know. It may well be that a new study has ascertained differently. Or of course it could illustrate that there are more female airline pilots now than there were back then. If so, does anyone have a link? It would make interesting reading. |
It Jetstar succeed in employing 50% female pilots, this will give them a tremendous financial advantage over the competition.
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How's that Kelly? Doesn't it cost more to employ a female? Taking into account maternity leave and more of them taking flexible working arrangements?
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I think you will find Qantas when it recruits will be using exactly same policy as Jetstar.
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