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-   -   Jetstar Aiming for 50% Gender Spilt in Interview Candidates (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/577602-jetstar-aiming-50-gender-spilt-interview-candidates.html)

neville_nobody 15th Apr 2016 09:44

Jetstar Aiming for 50% Gender Spilt in Interview Candidates
 
As if this industry wasn't hard enough already.

To start stipulating a 50% figure when the actual ratio gender split of the total pilots or engineer population is nowhere near 50% is flat out discrimination and a great way of discouraging otherwise keen capable males.


Taylah Smith, 20, doesn't fit the stereotypical image of an avionics engineer. But the second-year apprentice at Jetstar's Newcastle engineering facility says she loves her job.

"It is such a unique and specialised field," she says. "Most people, when I tell them what I do, they have no idea and their jaw drops."

Ms Smith, who has been interested in engineering since she was at school, is one of four female apprentices at the low-cost airline's engineering facility in Newcastle. She works 11-hour day or night shifts on a four day on/four day off basis to ensure the aircraft keep flying safely.

Jetstar, which unusually for the aviation industry has a female chief executive, Jayne Hrdlicka, and a female chief pilot, Captain Georgina Sutton, has been working hard to recruit more women in traditionally male-dominated fields.
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​For the past year, it has had a policy in place to aim for an even split between male and female candidates for interviews and shortlisted for jobs. If that cannot be achieved in the event nobody from a specific gender applied or met critical technical and safety qualifications, an explanation must be provided.

Jetstar's efforts to increase gender diversity were recognised on Thursday evening, when industry group Aviation/Aerospace Australia named it as the award winner in the Outstanding Strategy for Diversity Category at its 2016 Airspace Awards.

Aviation/Aerospace Australia chief executive Ken McLean said progressive airlines around the world had abandoned the position of having women in the cabin and men in the cockpit.

"Incentives and quotas have helped reverse this situation," he said. "The challenge now is to ensure women are well represented in the technical aspects of aviation, such as maintenance, dispatch and piloting."

In NSW, less than 1 per cent of aircraft maintenance engineers are female, making them even rarer than female pilots. In Australia, women comprise around 5 to 10 per cent of pilots at the major airlines, varying by carrier.

Ms Hrdlicka said that, from Jetstar's point of view, striving for better diversity in its pilot and engineering ranks was a "no-brainer".

"I've never understood why an airline would overlook half the population when searching for the very best talent to fly, service and maintain their aircraft," she said.

The Newcastle facility remains male-dominated, with the female apprentices comprising only 5 per cent of the workforce. But Ms Smith said she had not had problems integrating into a male-dominated environment and hoped more women would follow in her footsteps.

When she completes her four-year apprenticeship she will be qualified as an aircraft maintenance engineer. Once that is complete, she could choose to pursue the qualification of becoming a licensed aircraft maintenance engineer.

"There are plenty of options," she said. "You can just keep going and go further up the ladder."

Read more: Jetstar works to boost number of women in engineering
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IsDon 15th Apr 2016 10:01


"I've never understood why an airline would overlook half the population when searching for the very best talent to fly, service and maintain their aircraft," she said.
Isn't that exactly what she's now doing. Overlooking half the population, males, who may actually be more qualified and motivated, but who aren't considered because they have a penis.

Dress it up whatever way you like. When you overlook a better candidate because of a gender bias then that plain and simple discrimination.

What is really stupid is employing half your workforce purely on gender bias rather than talent or ability.

What's next, 20% must be gay/lesbian/transvestite? What about ethnic split while where at it? Or religion? Should your employment depend more upon your ethnicity, gender or sexual preference than your suitability to actually do the job? No only an idiot would think that. Seems being an idiot doesn't stop you becoming CEO of Jetstar.

waren9 15th Apr 2016 10:12

curious to see how thats going to work for them in the flight attendant ranks

ozziejim 15th Apr 2016 10:22

In all my years I'm yet to meet an unemployed female pilot, or if so not for long

chuboy 15th Apr 2016 10:48

Why aren't women interesting in being a LAME?

So many different women from different backgrounds and somehow only a tiny fraction take an interest in the profession?

Modern feminism suggests this is because of the patriarchy instilling a particular set of values in our youngsters that ends up steering women away from "traditionally male" roles. Personally I just think girls generally don't really take much of an interest in machines, but maybe I'm just part of the problem :confused:

framer 15th Apr 2016 11:21

Chuboy, I think there is at least an element of reality to your personally held views in many cases. People who have both male and female children sometimes notice this. I myself was interested that my boy took to making car/truck/ motorbike noises and becoming very excited when he saw them from about eight months old. Both his older sisters still don't get excited over these things. Maybe they never will?

neville_nobody 15th Apr 2016 12:35

If you leave kids to their own devices it's interesting how the girls go for the dolls and dress ups and the boys want to go and play with the trucks and diggers. Feminists can say what they like but anecdotal evidence would suggest otherwise. Why do Lego now have girl focused Lego which is more about relationship rather than just the usual Pirates/Towns/Spaceship etc.

Not saying girls can't be good LAMES or Pilots but when talking about large numbers of people the average tends to sway toward the societal norms, which is what makes this 50% business a bit ridiculous. Then add into that becoming an airline pilot takes alot of sacrifice regardless of gender and that airline jobs are really very competitive anyway.

grrowler 15th Apr 2016 13:19


Originally Posted by waren9 (Post 9344920)
curious to see how thats going to work for them in the flight attendant ranks

It seems to be heading that way at some airlines! 😳

BleedingAir 15th Apr 2016 15:38

The whole thing is f***ing disgusting. Saw it in my previous career, seeing it here. Mandating 50% female recruitment when the pool of female applicants might be 10-20%. You dare argue it, people start using the words "sexist" and "outrage".

I wouldn't have the slightest issue with 95% female recruitment, if it was based solely on assessment of suitability and competency (as it is with everyone else). But apparently even suggesting that is veiled sexism too. I give up.

WannaBeBiggles 15th Apr 2016 20:45

I've actually had this discussion with a bunch of female pilots not long ago. There are plenty out there that will us their gender and/or looks to get ahead while others just want to work hard and get there on their own merits.

Such policies while at face value seem like a great way to integrate the sexes, they also have the effect of people just assuming any female got the job because of her gender when she may have worked really hard and have been the most competitive candidate on the day regardless of gender.

I'm all for encouraging more females to the industry, I've worked with many and the majority of them are great operators. Some had issues with life out remote or with brash management styles of many of the owners out there, though the same can be said for their male counterparts.

Reverse discrimination does nothing to empower a given race, creed or gender.

Imagine how you'd feel if you run a race, come in 1st and the person that came in 4th also got a gold medal because they were also of the same race/gender/creed than you and you were seen as being from a race/gender/creed that "needed help".

Runaway Gun 15th Apr 2016 20:52

Maybe it's time I changed my name to something a little more feminine on my CV.

Keg 15th Apr 2016 22:41

Imagine being a female that got the gig. If you were fair dinkum about yourself you'd always be wondering if you got it on your own merits because you were among the best applicants it or if it was a token gesture. That'd do my head in.

I wonder when they'll start doing the reverse for occupations such as social worker or school teacher?

mcgrath50 16th Apr 2016 00:01

Is it 50/50 across all roles in the company or is it 50/50 for each group.

It is not unusual in a corporate world to say that "Across all the jobs we advertise this year we want to aim to see a 50/50 male to female ratio". And in general, if you aren't being discriminatory, it SHOULD balance out. As there is a population balance of about 50/50. Now obviously pilots and LAMEs are more likely to be male (although is this because girls don't see it as a viable option, when people still get surprised when a female voice comes over the PA), but FA are more likely to be female. And so on. Roles such as accountants are more likely to trend towards 50/50. And across a whole company its not difficult to target 50/50.

Assuming its across the whole company and not for each job advertised, I really feel you are all brewing a storm in a teacup. :ok:

The Green Goblin 16th Apr 2016 01:13

It's what happens when the CP is a chick along with the CEO.

Interesting that pretty much all the senior flight ops management pilots have walked out and returned to the line.

Does this alarm anyone?

waren9 16th Apr 2016 02:56

no. it just shows that the old blue shirts brigade and its jobs for mates scheme is nearing the end of its time

however, the devil you know and all that i guess.

600ft-lb 16th Apr 2016 04:02

So does this mean men will get favourability when applying for typically female dominated roles such as HR ?


"I've never understood why an airline would overlook half the population when searching for the very best talent to fly, service and maintain their aircraft," she said.
I think it's more of the case that half of the population overlooks being an aircraft engineer as a job they want to do. But that would be sexist to point that out.

The same reason why men generally don't become nurses or school teachers.

Led Zep 16th Apr 2016 04:38


"Incentives and quotas have helped reverse this situation," he said.
I would look to various countries' sporting teams that use "quotas". Is X the best Y coloured/gendered player? Yes. Are they better than player Z? No, but a quota had to be met. A net loss to the team.
I couldn't live with myself knowing that there was a strong chance I was employed not because I was the best for the role, but because a quota had to be met or the company recieved some "incentive" to hire me. :{


"I've never understood why an airline would overlook half the population when searching for the very best talent to fly, service and maintain their aircraft," she said.
If recruitment does their job correctly, the best talent for any position, in any company, across ALL industries, would be sitting opposite the interview panel REGARDLESS of gender!!

I do not claim to be an expert in JQ/QF maint, in fact I know very little, but if they outsource overseas, I hope that the Philippine/Singaporean/etc. shed is at least 50/50 split between the sexes, and within those divisions, racial and religious splits are equal too. :\



chuboy 16th Apr 2016 04:44

If JQ have to choose between an Indigenous male and a white female candidate, who do they pick?

Brakerider 16th Apr 2016 04:59

What about hiring the Indigenous Female? That ticks 2 boxes and they can get on with the job..

Led Zep 16th Apr 2016 05:07


If JQ have to choose between an Indigenous male and a white female candidate, who do they pick?
A HR divide-by-zero moment. :}

neville_nobody 16th Apr 2016 05:08


It is not unusual in a corporate world to say that "Across all the jobs we advertise this year we want to aim to see a 50/50 male to female ratio". And in general, if you aren't being discriminatory, it SHOULD balance out.
Except that isn't how it reads. It would appear that if they have 100 pilots to interview then if 50 of them are not women they have to send a 'please explain' to head office. Then depending on how it rolls from there is what will make it interesting. If it's just a token effort and a PR stunt then fair enough noone is really affected.

However if there is downward pressure from the top to actually start actively pursuing departments who can't meet the quota, then I think it's a bridge to far.

If Jetstar REALLY want more girls in aviation then they have to start at a grass roots level, by encouraging them at school age to be interested in it and offering scholarships and free flying training. I guess similar with what the AFL do with their kids programs. Unfortunately in aviation it is not a matter of just qualifying, you then have 5+ years of hard slog meager salart before you even get an interview with Jetstar with basically zero work/life balance.

I think this aspect is going to be the hardest sell to any woman especially in a male dominated industry. I have seen it in the past, girls who were otherwise quite competent who either just didn't want it badly enough, or couldn't hack the whole GA scene, and the negative effect it has on your life as whole. And in all honesty that's probably fair enough too.

However this kind of arbitrary recruiting won't fix that problem.

airdualbleedfault 16th Apr 2016 05:14

Aaaaand society continues down the sh1tter thanks to the loud, bleeding heart, do gooder minority

Capt Kremin 16th Apr 2016 06:24

Its all about "gender equality". Which appears to be a fluid term.

The RAAF has instituted the "Graduate Pilot Scheme". On the face of it a great deal.

Do the 3 year Aviation degree at Griffith University.

After completing one year of degree you can apply for GPS.

*HECS paid.
*Complete the RAAF pilots course as YR3 of the degree
*ROSO of 3 years.

Mentors provided on course.

One extra requirement-Those without Lady-bits need not apply.

Great deal if you are a woman but graduating beside a bunch of males who jumped the same hoops without any of the above assistance and now face a ROSO of 10 years may take some courage.

Metro man 16th Apr 2016 08:51

South African Airways won't employ any white male candidates and have openly stated this. A 200 hour non W/M would be taken over a test pilot with perfect scores all round, who happened to be a white male.

Massey058 16th Apr 2016 09:16


Originally Posted by neville_nobody (Post 9345741)
If Jetstar REALLY want more girls in aviation then they have to start at a grass roots level, by encouraging them at school age to be interested in it and offering scholarships and free flying training. I guess similar with what the AFL do with their kids programs. Unfortunately in aviation it is not a matter of just qualifying, you then have 5+ years of hard slog meager salart before you even get an interview with Jetstar with basically zero work/life balance.

This.

Why don't they institute an advertising campaign to get the message out there? Highlight all the women that work for the airline across all levels and then back that up by going grass level as you say.

I've always felt that a lot of the gender disparity in the industry comes down to historical norms, it will take some time to change that but it won't happen without some grass level work, not just decreeing a simple 50/50 split. That and also sometimes I feel the fairer sex might be a lot smarter by not getting themselves into this at times maddening, crazy industry. Those that do though I have very much enjoyed working with.

Mr.Buzzy 16th Apr 2016 11:00

White Heterosexual Taxpayer...... The new minority group.

Bzbbzbzzbzbzbzb

mcgrath50 16th Apr 2016 11:18


White Heterosexual Taxpayer...... The new minority group.
Don't worry Buzzy, the deck is still stacked firmly in your favour. Don't confuse things become more equal with you being less than equal.

Fly4Business 16th Apr 2016 12:03

I really enjoy selection criteria based on skills and capabilities, but I do feel bad if I have somebody right seat, who might be hired due to "gender split" consideration ...

Howard Hughes 16th Apr 2016 13:15


The same reason why men generally don't become nurses or school teachers.
Geez mate, where I work the nurses are pretty much a 50-50 split, all the blokes are 'midwives' too! :ok:

Gligg 16th Apr 2016 14:55

May be some openings for social engineers.

oicur12.again 16th Apr 2016 15:57

I always get a laugh out of watching poor white men, who own 95% of the jobs in a particular sector, getting their tool belts in a knot when a proposal comes along that may upset this massive imbalance.

“Overlooking half the population, males, who may actually be more qualified and motivated, but who aren't considered because they have a penis.”

Nowhere in the article or in JQ/QF policy does it state or imply that a male will be overlooked despite being more suitable for the job. NOWHERE!!!!

“What's next, 20% must be gay/lesbian/transvestite?”

Wow, a really poor excuse for a thin edge of the wedge argument. Yes mate, and next they are going to try and recruit bunnies to fly their planes. What next!!!!

“Seems being an idiot doesn't stop you becoming CEO of Jetstar.”

Nope, or a pilot either.

“Mandating 50% female recruitment….”

No, again, incorrect. This has not been proposed and would be illegal anyway.

“It's what happens when the CP is a chick along with the CEO.”

No, its called progress, something Australia has great difficulty with.

A320 Flyer 16th Apr 2016 16:33

I left this organisation last year because of the direction that the current management was heading....

The new CEO didn't seem to have any idea what was happening on the ground floor and was too preoccupied with 'women in aviation' lunches and speaking appointments....

Initially when the new CP started there was a rise in morale because the boys club had finally been disrupted...... The EBA back pay and QF bonus keep everyone happy at the same time....

Shortly after Aunty Jacks appointment, everyone realised the boys club we 'knew' had been replaced by a far more worrying "Carla and the women" coup......

Some very worrying vacancies in highly important flight ops roles followed and the place really started to fall apart.... (By by TS)

Please don't misunderstand me...... The women I have flown with in both the general aviation and airline environment have been some of the best pilots I've had the pleasure of working with... They are just fewer and far between.....

These mandated minimums are unachievable and could conceivably hold to best person for the job from getting the position they deserve.... (And should be in) Purely because they don't meet Carla's gender equality requirement.

I am all for equality in aviation however Jetstar are bordering on (backward) sexism.....

This is the very wrong that they are so vehemently trying to fight.

Anyway.... Another few miles of sand (or maybe jungle) to cover tonight....

Fly safe.....

(No longer) A320Flyer

oicur12.again 16th Apr 2016 19:06

“The new CEO didn't seem to have any idea what was happening on the ground floor”

As apposed to . . . . any other CEO in Australian aviation. Taken a look at what the Virgin folk are saying about the ineffective CEO they have been lumbered with? Trust me, the CEO at AN had no idea what was happening and he was a . . . . bloke!!!

Maybe it’s a CEO problem as apposed to a gender problem?

“…..and was too preoccupied with 'women in aviation' lunches and speaking appointments”

Does it matter what preoccupies the CEO and diverts attention from the task at hand. Would it be more acceptable if she spent the time at the footy instead of attending a women in aviation lunch?

“everyone realised the boys club we 'knew' had been replaced by a far more worrying "Carla and the women" coup......”

So it appears we have a problem with clubs or cliques and your simplistic comment alone indicates that these exist regardless of the chief pilots gender.

“These mandated minimums are unachievable and could conceivably hold to best person for the job from getting the position they deserve.... (And should be in) Purely because they don't meet Carla's gender equality requirement.”

Again, nowhere has it been suggested that “the best person for the job” will be bypassed in order to achieve a quota.

morno 16th Apr 2016 20:52


Nowhere in the article or in JQ/QF policy does it state or imply that a male will be overlooked despite being more suitable for the job. NOWHERE!!!!
Hmmmm, not exactly how it reads in the article by my interpretation.


For the past year, it has had a policy in place to aim for an even split between male and female candidates for interviews and shortlisted for jobs
I thought we're all supposed to be equal these days? If that were the case we wouldn't have to be talking about these stupid things. But it appears I have my chances severely reduced if I was against a female candidate even if my standard was higher.

WannaBeBiggles 16th Apr 2016 21:45

Regardless of what form of inequality one talks about, as soon as those who try to "help" differentiate one from the other they're creating more inequality.

Creating those sort of rules is nothing more than a wanky managerial metric where managers can pat each other on their backs and tell themselves what a great job they've done, it does nothing to actually help the cause.

How about they concentrate getting more females into the industry at grassroots level? Bolster those numbers and the number that'll be standing in front of your interview panel in 5-10 years will grow organically. But of course, how many CEO's and CP's will still be in their respective position to receive all the kudos if they did that?

Stationair8 16th Apr 2016 22:26

Please explain, Jetstar need to recruit 100 pilots in 2016.

To keep the dream alive, that means fifty of those pilots will have to be female.
What happens if only twenty females apply who meet the requirements, do they all get a job?

Does that mean they can only recruit twenty male pilots to keep 50/50 ratio?

What happens if Jetstar pickup additional flying and need to recruit two hundred pilots, but only get fifty female applicants with lady bits? Do they cut back the expansion plans?

From another angle for the class of 2016 they recruit 100 pilots, with fifty of those being female. How will the gender ratio balance out, when say fifty percent of the females, head of on maternity leave within a couple of years of being employed?

WTF do company CEO's spend so much time on the lunch time speaking gig-aren't they employed to run a business and make money, not tell us how good they are?

Beer Baron 17th Apr 2016 00:11

Use some reading comprehension skills fellas...

For the past year, it has had a policy in place to aim for an even split between male and female candidates for interviews and shortlisted for jobs. If that cannot be achieved in the event nobody from a specific gender applied or met critical technical and safety qualifications, an explanation must be provided.
So it is not a 50/50 recruitment split, just interviewed and shortlisted. They can still pick the best candidate for the job regardless of gender.

Clearly they don't recruit every female who applies if they haven't reached 50% they just send an email upstairs saying "we only got 5 female applicants for 20 jobs so we won't hit the target this time". Simple really.

Fixing gender imbalance can't be achieved by any one action alone. You are quite right to say there needs to be action at grassroot/highschool level. But there also needs to be action at the highest levels of the industry too. The media around this story is exactly the sort of thing that spurs grassroot interest.

josephfeatherweight 17th Apr 2016 00:39


Its all about "gender equality". Which appears to be a fluid term.

The RAAF has instituted the "Graduate Pilot Scheme". On the face of it a great deal.

Do the 3 year Aviation degree at Griffith University.

After completing one year of degree you can apply for GPS.

*HECS paid.
*Complete the RAAF pilots course as YR3 of the degree
*ROSO of 3 years.

Mentors provided on course.

One extra requirement-Those without Lady-bits need not apply.

Great deal if you are a woman but graduating beside a bunch of males who jumped the same hoops without any of the above assistance and now face a ROSO of 10 years may take some courage.
The above is true. And it's a disgrace. Particularly perturbed, when this was introduced, were the awesome female pilots who had jumped the same hurdles as their male colleagues, met the grade and accepted the same conditions (ROSO). Our concerns regarding this discrimination (it is, undeniably, discrimination) were raised up the chain and CAF's response was that positive discrimination is legal. What a world we live in.
Two of the BEST instructors I had in my career in the RAAF were female and I KNOW both of them are appalled at this ridiculous concept.
As an aside, I've got kids - the boys like trucks and diggers and cars and the girl likes dolls and prams - they haven't been pushed in that direction and if the boys wanted to play with the dolls and the girl wanted to play with the diggers, that's great. Thankfully, none of them seem much interested in aeroplanes!!
But, you can't artificially make half the population join a career stream that they simply may not be interested in.

Mail-man 17th Apr 2016 00:42

Would it not be simpler to remove gender specific information and names at the application stage?

oicur12.again 17th Apr 2016 03:41

“Hmmmm, not exactly how it reads in the article by my interpretation.”

A policy aim of interviewing candidates and short listing for jobs does in no way imply that “a male will be overlooked despite being more suitable for the job”.

You may read it that way but it is not the intent and would be considered illegal.

“To keep the dream alive, that means fifty of those pilots will have to be female.”

No, that is NOT how it will work. As beer baron has explained, airlines are still free to pick the best candidate for the job.

Guys, don’t panic, you still hold 95% of the positions in a world where half the people are women.


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