PNG crash
 

This attrition rate is surely too much ?
We all know, as professionals that PNG and Nepal are very challenging environments, but surely, there has to be a concerted attempt to mitigate those risks: a combination of enhanced equipment and a committed regulator with teeth might be a good start ?

That picture in the NZ Stuff and Sydney Morning Herald is from a defunct operator of the DC3 in Kenya in the 1980s, also called Sunbird Aviation. It is not from the PNG based Sunbird which has a facebook page

https://www.facebook.com/Sunbird-Avi...5154244272129/

PNG crash near Kiunga??
 

Australian pilot thought to be among a dozen killed in PNG plane crash

http://www.skynews.com.au/news/top-s...ane-crash.html

I think the plane involved may have been an Islander. Not a lot of details at this stage in relation to the crash except it was in the Kiunga area

Twelve in an Islander?

You may be correct, they had two Turbine Islanders originally P2-SBA and P2-SBB. One ended up in the drink at Vanimo?

I think the DC3 photo being used by the media may be Douglas DC-3 5Y-DAK of Sunbird Aviation, Kenya that crashed in 1987.

RIP to the victims. Toughest environment I had ever flown in, with Oksapmin being one of the worst strips up there to get into. Strip itself is ok, however the turbulence can be horrendous in the crafter. Hope he didn't get stuck in the Strickland Gorge like I once did.

Wet season up there yet? Starts at around this time of the year.

Condolences to the families. Having recently gone through the loss in PNG of the pilot in our family our thoughts are with you.

The company oprates BN-2 Islanders.
How do they get 12 bodies from a 10 seat aircraft ?.

Ancient one,Most,(if not all ?) PNG BN2's were fitted with "high density (ie bench type) seating.The idea being most PNG punters were smaller in stature than yur average caucasion,cheers maus

Read that engine failure may be a cause. Never flown a Turbine Islander so wouldn't have a clue on how they are on one engine.

Anyone know?

From memory I once heard a Talair Pilot describe being in that situation. He did not enjoy the experience! Still had the shakes whenever he spoke about it.

As an afterthought, Duck Pilot; Wasn't you perchance?

Been a few stuck in the Strickland George due weather, including an Avdev Islander still there.

But this accident was on final into Kiunga, RW 07/25 is 1,271 meters x 23 meters, 97 feet above sea level, so no shortage of length for a Bongo Van, whether gas or kero.

Babes-in-arms probably... :(

When I was at Ok Tedi an Avdev Islander [Andy Parr] drove into the Hindenberg Wall [~9000ft or so] about 100' from the top. One little girl somehow survived that one.

Sad about this one>>

The terrain around Kiunga is relatively flat and its not a particularly demanding strip, unlike Oksapmin and the "bips" in the highlands. The piston engine Islander is not great on one engine, particularly the 265hp version, can't comment on the turbine one.

Twelve on board is quite possible in PNG with babies and small children, there was a Twin Otter accident with around 28 onboard in the mid 1990s.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

Three of the 12 fatalities were children which explains 12 POB

I would like to add my condolences to the friends and family of the victims. PNG is so unforgiving. In time we will hopefully find out why what happened, happened and learn.

I would also like to say how much I miss my friend to the Familyof_LimaRomeo. I flew with LR on many occasions and worked with him at three companies here in PNG. He spoke so highly of his family and loved you all so much....you were always his number one priority and even after all those years sounded like a love struck school boy when talking of his wonderful wife.

In Oz in the 70s I used to fly with a bush pilot in a Cessna 6 seater tail-dragger which he'd previously operated for a while in New Guinea. It was equipped with an under-slung luggage pod. He told me that quite frequently this pod was occupied by two local fellas in addition to a full cabin.

But riven by small gulleys and creeks... corrugated rather than flat ... few places for an emergency landing

I really hope the operator can get through this tragic event. Very professional operation managed by a couple of highly experienced PNG pilots who have a real heart for the PNG rural communities.

Andy Parr wasn't Avdev he was Talair P2 ISG...not Hindenberg wall..

12 in an Islander (Brumm Brumm) is no big deal. Haven't operated in PNG since the early '80s but it would have been unusual then not to have high density seating. Thats 4 rows of 3 abreast bench seating plus front right seat and legal to have a babe (picaniny) in arms. For a child it was legal to have two of them in one seat belt. Do the maths. That was a lot of kanakas on board and all legal. Just make sure they are all strapped in and weight OK and you are good to go.

Sorri Tumas :(

I know of someone who crammed just over 20 POB into a 'brumm brumm' many years ago. :eek:

All Schoolkids, heading home at end of term.:ooh:

'Aint sayin' who it was.:}

The good old days of overloading these non performing twins should be a thing of the past, even in places such as PNG. There are plenty of alternatives, with the most simplest one being do two trips instead of one.

Let's just wait and see what the report brings out.

This isn't the place to bring out old war stories, use the other PNG tok tok thread.

Duck Pilot, nobody here has posted or described anything suggesting overloading. The discussions are about how many pax can be carried within the capabilities of the aircraft. 11 PNGians, including a couple of kids, is well within the limitations of an Islander. I have flown in a few countries around the world, and, with the very rare exception, found PNG operators to be among the most conscious of weight limitations. If this accident had been caused by overloading, the aircraft would be near the pine trees on the side of the Oksapmin valley, not on approach to Kiunga.

I remember a Twin Otter accident in 1994 or 1995 which had 28 onboard.

Single engine performance is the limitation, especially in ISA +20 conditions.

Good check and training certainly helps, but sadly the pool of experienced in country check and training captains left in PNG is drying up very quickly.

How many examiners/FOIs do CASA PNG have who currently go out and do flight tests?

I know of at least one.
He was on a type rating check flight I did last month.
PNG national.
CASA PNG Flight Examiner.
Over 28,000 flight hours.
Incredibly experienced, helpful, polite and inspiring examiner.
He gave real world practical advice and was very alert to the differences in the pilots he tested.

I was most impressed and grateful that CASA PNG has such staff.

Aviator
 

While not wishing to criticise Inspectors who generally do a good job,I would query those qualifications.
Firstly,to have 28'000 hours you would have to have been long haul for many years where you max out yearly because of the long international sectors.
There is only on Inspector in PNG CASA who has that and he is from Aus and not PNG ,although I believe there is one who is highly respected within the aviation community and possibly more,but he is not old enough to have accumulated 28'000 hours
Inspectors who work for CASA are extremely underpaid compared to operating pilots in the country and this is why they can't attract many nationals who have great job opportunities in their own country.
They are generally understaffed and this is one reason for lack of oversight on their part and not their ability to do the job.
This is one reason why some types from down south and across the ditch manage to get into senior flying jobs with very dubious backgrounds and qualifications.The end result is inevitable.
In his case,the people in charge of the company are well known to be of a high caliber as was the pilot; it was just a tragic accident.
Don't fudge he facts for a good story.

Not necessarily. I recall many PNG domestic pilots maxing out every year at 900 hours, resulting in early annual leave. I know of a number of retired PNG domestic pilots with over 25,000 hours, all flown within PNG.

But I agree, there may not be many PNG National pilots with 28,000 hours.

Billy Johns -deceased- had over 25,000 before he retired at 70. I think Captain Honner semi-retired has close to 27,000 hours, just a guess,correct me if I am wrong (I'm sure he won't mind me giving him a rap and mentioning his name) and then there is good old John Regan who was flying strong at 80; it's anyone's guess how many hours he had? He was a CASA inspector.
But you are right they, CASA PNG, are undermanned and under paid. Yes they certainly flew a lot of short sectors and long days in the Talair/Douglas days accumulating 900 hours sometimes in 10 months, resulting in a nice long deserved break.
Craven

If my memory serves me the CASA PNG examiner we had said he had some 28,000 hours with 6,000 fixed wing and the rest rotary . . . (he could have said 26,000 hours with 8,000 fixed wing). Either way he could well have been flying for over 40 years. He mentioned having flown with Talair as Cravenmorehead spoke of above.

Well done CASA PNG for sending us such a Flight Examiner as have never seen one like him in 32 years of flying. He was a top notch bloke, real good value and mature enough to have the hours. He talked like a pilot, walked like a pilot and knew aircraft like a pilot.

It good to know that there are excellent experienced pilots in PNG.
Thanks tail wheel and Cravenmorehead for your supportive replies.

Am sorry again for the loss at Sunbird.

I attended a party to mark his passing 30,000 hours in the mid-90's, and he was still at it.

Another of his ex-PX colleagues who is still fit and healthy, but no longer flying, has over 34,000, and he has turned 70 within the past 12 months.

I also recall that the late Tom Peninsa had over 20,000 hours (all in PNG except the first 180 hours) when in early his 40's; I think he had a little difficulty understanding the CAO 48 limits.

In which case I reckon I once met him. Only briefly, but

Yep!:ok:

Langtaim ago nau.

Aviator
 

I did not intend to query the fact about how many hours the pilot had,but the I know the PNG national he refers to who is a top notch guy for whom I consider to be one of the best operators I have met and he describes him well; except for the 28'000 hours.
He would only be in his early 50's and good as he is,could not have that many hours.
Pilot's like Biil Johns who was over 70 when he left, John Regan,78 and Gary Honour now about 73 .
The only pilot in CASA over 70 is an ex Qantas pilot who I understand flew 747's.
The bottom line is, CASA does very little surveillance because it is underfunded and Inspectors generally don't stay too long when there are more opportunities in the private world in many different areas.
If you are talking about accidents then have a look a some of those senior expat managers,although in the case of this accident,they are very experienced and professional and as I said,so was the pilot.
We should let the investigators find the facts and show some respect for all concerned.

Excellent bush pilot was Tom, liked a drink as well. Tragically another accident statistic.

Preliminary report now released for those interested http://www.aic.gov.pg/pdf/AIC%2016-1...naryReport.pdf

Very good factual preliminary report.