Do you know how this can happen?
 

Mods, this is another moan directed at ASA, its not finger pointing exercise, more a fact finding moan as I'm trying to fathom the ineptitude of what I recently experienced.
Scene setting...
Big airways mega-cruiser approaching the end of its 13hr journey from its sandy furnace home base going to a pleasant Southern Australian destination.
Mega-cruiser has been in Australian airspace for 7 1/2 hours and has via CPDLC (datalink) been dutifully reporting ETA's and such.
5 minutes before computed TOD the lovely lady on the wireless issues the expected STAR clearance with a requirement to cross an intermediate waypoint....10 minutes!!! after the original eta.
Needless to say, I suffered sense of humour failure and ATC were advised that this was impossible, and would they like us to hold.
Order was restored after extensive/expensive vectoring to allow the various Saab 340's etc do their thing.
Needless to say I'm utterly flabbergasted that a first (cough cough) world ATC system can be this disorganised such that they advised us of the need to lose so much time with so little warning, I can live 2, 3, 4, 5....30 minutes if I'm given notice, but 5 minutes before TOD? not acceptable IMHO.(At destination there was no bad weather..disabled aeroplanes..navaid issues or closed runways)
Anyone got any thoughts?
BTW, not a slight on any controllers per se, we work with imperfect systems in an imperfect world, given that, how can this be allowed to happen if ASA are supposed to be a service provider?

Thoughts appreciated!

H1 :ok:

They probably couldnt determine the Ego category until they spoke to you - they then had to rapidly apply a ten minute hot air & bluster emergency separation category at the last minute for the sake of all humanity. :E :E

Clearly theres still hope for humanity in this case :ok::E

Sooo your saying you don't know either?

:E nup , no idea. But it does happen quite a bit.... Perhaps in the ops normal for ASA category

No idea. But welcome to our world. Cobt, radar all the way and we still get that and more.

There's the problem right there. Why is this so? Is the question that has to be asked.

Just because you are in the airspace for 7+ and guzzling 10T per hour in a sand encrusted dugong does not mean they are gonna let you in when you want.

ACA provide a Strategic Slot, NOC provide a tactical slot, Metron will use that best guess as you did leave 13hr + ago and then you are it.

Yes its a horses arse, no its not America or Europe, live with it.

If this is such a worry then wait until you see the new Flight Priorities Review Report and draft AIP ENR 1.4–10 ........

2015 Aeronautical Information Publication Flight Priorities Review

Have a read and tell them what you think next time a Saab cuts your grass onto 34L.......


ps. Haughtney does it want to make you go back to the Falcon or is it toooo comfy in the tripple?

haughtney, the point is we give the 10 minutes (or whatever it is) as a starting point and we go from there. You let us know what you can achieve and we then vector or hold accordingly. We're not expecting you to achieve the impossible - it's letting you know the required delay.

slice, where have you been? We've had this discussion every few months for years. Pilots seem to think that because they can fly to cross the threshold to within 15 seconds (or whatever) that everything that influences a sequence is equally precise. It isn't. Closer in departures intrude, wind changes intrude, medevac traffic intrudes, less than perfect pilots intrude, go-arounds intrude, aircraft requiring a different runway intrude, aircraft being able to accept a different runway intrudes.

If we give you a 10 minute delay 1,000 miles out what is that based on? Certainly not reality. 23 aircraft haven't departed yet. Can you pick up 5 minutes in 200 miles because a couple of aircraft are accepting an alternate runway due to a few knots less crosswind than forecast?

TwoT,

Will always prefer the Dassault, the only bad thing about it was I couldn't stand up properly to pee :}

Back on message, I'm not moaning about the 10 minutes, thats not the issue, ATC delays are a fact of life, yep we deal with it. Giving 5 minutes notice of a 10 minute delay after knowing where we are going to be at what time, for the last 7 hours, thats just dumbass.

Or is that unreasonable?

Le Pin, but in the same breath what is a 10 minute delay 200 miles out based on? that 10 minutes represents 80-90nm for me, as you say reality? well where does 10 minutes come from? is it a contrived number? is it a standard delay? Does traffic magically appear at international airports? Don't you get a little advance warning of filed flights?
The point I'm making is that as a SERVICE provider, ASA are super quick at pointing out our deficiencies, yet when something as nonsensical or something as having the appeareance of being nonsensical is implemented etc etc and gets questioned, it appears too fall into the "too hard", or we have the "big picture you dont" basket. Even places like Mumbai and Delhi give you a better idea and a damn sight more notice of delays.

H, mate....

I say you say I see a pattern forming here..... Equus ferus caballus conbusit, by any other name.

It is obviously too much to ask and is only getting worse there has been a dumbing down of their profession as much as there has bee in ours to the point where the man up the stick would not know the difference between a Triple and Buck72.

Least of all an understanding of physical properties of 200T at 280 KIAS going down at 3000fpm 115nm from TD, dont even contemplate a min clean speed.

We have both experienced a lot better from places "not here" it is unfortunate that our people up the stick need a safety case to operate a boom mic

I think it would only be fair for Australian registered aircraft then to be given 10 minute plus enroute holding prior to exiting the Australian FIR. Clearance not available. See how quick it gets fixed then.

How about a reduction in ATC fees by 50% per 5 minute delay ? There is zero cost incentive for ASA to fix this.

It is absolute B/S, I have flown cost index 0 for hours to drop 20 plus minutes as requested by ATC, hit the target within 10 seconds, to be held for a further 10 minutes low level.

Then we hear complaints from domestic carriers when they basically fly multiple narrow bodies in parallel on that same city pair for an occupied landing slot that was known before that domestic aircraft probably pushed back two sectors ago.

Same goes for a domestic carrier PER to SYD, ATC knows their landing slot hours out, why are they launching aircraft out of MEL for SYD for the same slot, instead of gate hold ?

All these costs are passed onto the Australian consumer, it is costing them millions, costing ASA next to nothing.

Cmon haughtney. It happens for the same reason that holding I to DXB is sometimes 20 minutes, sometimes 45 and sometimes 0 and track shortening well inside the trombone.

At least you're dealing with it only once every now and then (as am I). My heart goes out to those that cop this sort of stuff multiple times a day :ok:

About 6-7 years ago ASA trialed an arrivals sequencing scheme whereby inbound heavies were given an RTA for the 200nm point around the time they crossed the WA Coast. Problem was, most decided to ignore the time and maintain their planned Mach no. Which brings us to the present. :ugh:

Keg, I'm not moaning about delays, far from it, such is life in busy airspace, my gripe is the stupendously late notification of such delays, particularly given the amount of time spent in the MEL/BNE FIR etc, its not as if appearing 200nm from destination is a surprise.

Savage 175, that sounds very much like a compliance issue rather than a process or systems issue, but taken a step further, why did the carriers not respect the RTA? was it because it was unmanageable for the aircraft? was it due to the RTA being inaccurate? i.e. get there early and land early, was it because despite the RTA operators had no confidence due to previously mentioned problems and that others not participating didn't experience delays? (just a question, not criticism)
Be all that as it may, what good reason or excuse can be given for such late notification of delays? no one seems to be able to answer this so far, apart from saying its the system...if it is the system, does anyone else think the system in this instance needs a little work?

haughtney, the 10 minutes comes from Meastro. I'd love to be able to lock things in further out but it's a dynamic environment. Maybe you had a 4 minute delay that blew out due to another heavy requiring a different runway or having to accommodate medevac traffic or any other of a multitude of reasons.

I can explain how Maestro works in detail if wanted.

Le Pin,

My understanding of Maestro is that it is designed to optimise the landing sequence using the arrivals part of it, and it keeps recalculating etc etc, a bit like my Garmin.
My understanding is that the distance of 200nm from destination is user defined, rather than system specific? I did ask btw about our sequence on taxi in, no preceding arrivals for 6 or 7 minutes, no departures for 4 minutes, so I was and still am bit baffled.

Get over it Mate. Should have been flying into Brissie a couple of years ago Faaaa...k 55 minutes with no weather was my record and us maggot/a320 drivers do it 40-50 times a month. Delays are a fact of life unfortunately, take a vector descend hold whatever. Half the delays are normally caused by some big fat dugong back at final approach speed 10 miles out!😜

The Aussie controllers are the second best in the world
 

And we all know who is no 1.... (The rest of the world)

Jokes aside

Those of us who fly around the globe to some of the busiest airports in the world have never been able to understand the continual slow down speed up slow down speed up again that goes on in Oz Airspace... Lovely people but no idea or perhaps the wrong tools. BNE is OK ...SYD and MEL :ugh:

I asked an Aussie controller at a conference why it happens .... his response.... why is it a problem?

Here's a few simple examples of why late notice delays can/do occur.

Missed approaches - have to fit them back in somewhere.
Whether it was pilot/controller error, weather, or whatever.
That re-sequencing is now an extra 2-3 minute delay for every other inbound aircraft.

Weather/runway changes - losing LAHSO in Melbourne means going from a max arrival rate of 44 to about 24 per hour. This may be caused by a momentary increase in xwind above 20knots. Do the math on the flow on effect.

Preceding traffic considers a high speed descent is 230knots at 40 miles.

Priority traffic. We don't get 7 hours notice of medevac flights, so if one pops up at an inconvenient time, sorry, but you're no.2.

...

What's that, an just another international twin? ;)

10 minutes at 200nm? That's pretty tough. We get a "good" indication of the delay from ATC at 350-odd miles out. Enough time to duck down to your best "holding in a straight line" altitude and make the time.

Is Adelaide that busy?

Twas my second thought, right after my WTF? moment.

Come on Bloggsy..jealousy will get you nowhere....how big is a 717 again? :}

(at least thats what I think you drive...:ok:)

Yes, yes, yes, I know, your centre tank holds more fuel than I weigh!! :{

At least you have one of the quietest cockpits made, very nice.

Maestro works by using untouched landing times of all the arrivals - basically the system estimate for the fix plus the time it calculates (to the second I believe) you'll take from the fix to run around the STAR to the threshold. The sequence is simply the order of untouched landing times. This isn't set in concrete until quite late in the piece so you can jump around a bit at times.

It then takes the acceptance rate (time between arrivals), spaces the sequence accordingly and calculates landing times. It then calculates your time for the fix so you land at the required time.

Meaning if you get several aircraft with very similar untouched landing times it's possible to go back (or forward) several spots if estimates change a little. i.e. you can go from 0 delay to 10 minutes just like that. 10 minutes would be unusual but it's entirely possible.

We have plenty of other things to do besides fiddling with Maestro that have higher priority such as separation and coordination. We'll take a look at it from time to time but things can change rapidly and catch us unawares. Changes rely on us noticing them - we don't get an alert to warn us.

As to why the gap, it could have been they managed to shorten up some of the aircraft ahead and compressed the sequence a bit and you were a bit slower than expected. It could have been a space left for a transiting medevac chopper. We don't just leave holes for the fun of it.

Do you know how this can happen?
 

The way traffic is sequenced in Aus is at the request of industry / airlines. They want aircraft absorbing all delay at cruise altitude, then staying on the STAR (because the FMC is more efficient than hand flying) all the way to touch down. If you're on the STAR all the way to touchdown how else can the sequence be organised. Speed up slow down. We all know you hate it, but the airline loves it. Sometimes I wonder why we bother because it's much more difficult than say sequencing like Heathrow. Just let em all cruise into the low level holding stacks, issue them standard speeds, then vector them onto final. So much easier than locking a dynamic sequence in at 200nm (40mins from now) when so much will happen between now and then. Especially if there is a bit of weather around, not just at the airport but enroute. While you're up there dodging cumulus the sequence is going to **** cause no one is achieving their RTA.

You being inside Aus airspace for 7 hours has nothing to do with it. You could be given a flow time then but it would most certainly be wrong. We can even see you on maestro well beyond 200nm but maestro can't see the aircraft that will beat you to the airport but haven't taken off yet. How do you flow a sequence with aircraft that aren't airborne yet? 200nm is just a number that seems to work best. In some circumstances when the traffic mix is right I've seen the sequence locked in at 350nm.

In a perfect world all this is great. You get your RTA in enough time to slow down and achieve it, descend at 250kts via the star all the way to touch down and everyone flows in like a zipper landing a perfect 4nm trail (for mixed mode) over the threshold. Very rarely is it a perfect world. But get used to it, Nextgen and Sesar are both based on the Aus ATC system. (Adjust speed to cross....)

Had the same thing happened to you at Heathrow, you would have stayed at your normal speed, done a lap of the holding pattern, probably two (10mins) at 5000', vectored onto final, then came here and told us how good Heathrow ATC (don't get me wrong it is very good).

Charlie, I'm sure that ASA management tell controllers that the system is broken because airlines/ industry want it that way, just as airline managers tell us line drivers that "ASA is heavily unionised and controllers won't change their practices". The truth may be a little from column A and column B but the fact remains that a 10 minute delay at 200 miles or less (common example) is not "absorbing all delay at cruise altitude"; but rather losing time on descent which whilst doable, is a major pain in the @rse in terms of energy management and efficiency.

You ask "How do you flow a sequence with aircraft that aren't airborne yet"?
Given that most traffic into capital primary's are RPT with a known schedule; I'd ask why cant you?

I can't see why you're getting your knickers all bunched up over it Haughtney,
the oz controllers apply some pretty insanely tight separations as it is - specially with the MEL 27 departures and 16/34 arrivals.

It happens anywhere in the world if you arrive at rush hour at a capacity constrained airport, specially one that has a mix of light turboprops and super-heavies and the occasional medevac etc.

It's just all about how they prefer to present the bad news to you ... the aussies tell you at TOD to cross Arbey with a 10 minute delay, and the brits tell you at TOD to expect 2 laps of the Lambourne hold. Doesnt make a blind bit of difference really except you then have to tell them ok we need a delaying vector. Kind of silly way to do it, but that's aussies for ya

That's pretty naive, Joe. Do you really expect multiple RPT aircraft could/would stick to their schedule plus or minus a couple of minutes so the flow would work with no slowdowns or re-sequencing?

Losing time in straight lines is better, fuel burn wise, than holding patterns. Nicer for the pax, too.

:ok: When I offer the choice of speeds and vectors or hold a large majority of pilots take the vectors.

Joe, even if everyone pushes back on time how does that account for different runways for departure and arrival, winds and Haughtney picking up 30 minutes over his 13+ hours in the air? Not to mention multiple aircraft scheduled to arrive at the same time.

The point is a dozen aircraft can end up all trying to land within a few minutes so there will be delays just because of the variables not accounted for by scheduling.

Le Pingouin - I understand the variables involved, however, the system should be at least smart enough to know that aircrew cannot possibly lose 10 mins in 200 miles. Better to say "expect Approach time at X, or expect holding for x mins or say nothing and just radar vector.

Perth is locking in JULIM estimates and slowing ppl down with 400 NM to run. Is this more what you want?

And while you're at it could you give YMML arrivals their ARBEY time 400nm out too?

Better still 1000 nm out ask me my ARBEY estimate, it will be very close.

Rex, it's the controllers doing the asking. We aren't expecting you to do the impossible but are giving you the time and letting you work with your magic box to see what can achieved & going from there. Rather than some long spiel we just give the time and you come back with what you can achieve. I'll often add "let me know what you can achieve" if I think it's not possible on speed alone.

Personally if I think you can get it down to less than a pattern with speed I'll give you the time. I've seen some quite amazing time losses coming into ML from BN (into the wind I guess) when I was expecting a 4 or 5 min vector.

ACMS, an accurate estimate is great, but it won't make an iota of difference because it takes no account of all the aircraft who have yet to depart who will be getting there before you.

400NM out? The controller who will be fiddling with Maestro may very well not even be aware of you at that stage and is busy working the sequence and handling their other duties for the aircraft they already have. As a pilot are you thinking about your next leg rather than briefing for the arrival you're about to make? That's what you're asking for. It's not the way Maestro works.

The fact that you guys don't know about us from 400nm away says it all.:rolleyes:

We can lose time to make a fix time from a couple of thousand.;)

A factor not often discussed is the random flying habits of poorly trained or under confident pilots.

Several carriers I have worked for are full of pilots who happily ignore ATC speed requests and pretty much do what ever speed they like on descent and will throw the anchor out at whatever point intrudes on their comfort factor.

The steely eyed missile men of ye olden days driving the 727 at 300 knots until less than 20 miles are gone, now replaced by kids who would rather stick like glue to an inaccurate DES profile and let the speed drift back to 260 knots than actually maintain an appropriate speed and run the numbers in their head.

Run the numbers in their head? Not anymore, no one teaches it. Many pilots these days have no clue about where they should be speed/height/distance.

Start training pilots a little better and forcing some flying discipline and things may work out a little better for ATC

Rant over.

I'm looking after a large chunk of airspace with maybe 20 aircraft to consider. Separation is the priority. I'll look at sequencing when I can, that's what it boils down to. My attention is quite necessarily focused on my airspace and immediate surrounds, not looking for aircraft to sequence a couple of hundred miles away.

You seriously can't be that dim?

TAAATS knows about you the moment you depart a foreign country. If you want to slow down on departure from that foreign country just in case you might get a delay, fill your boots.

That would be easier to swallow if we didn't have schedules and slot times, and if we weren't sitting at the gate watching a clock wind down as part of a Ground Delay Program. If I were to push back outside -5/+10 of my COBT then my friendly controller would remind me that I'm non compliant and can expect up to 60 holding. If I am compliant, then I can expect the same holding/last minute slow down/now quick speed up, as before the implementation of ground delay programs.

It's simply not acceptable to be tracked from one side of the country to the other, with a slot time, and COBT compliant to then be treated as a shock/ surprise at 200 miles. As airline Pilots, we work hard to be fuel efficient, only to then throw that efficiency out the window with a ridiculously inefficient descent.

In my neck of the woods, the GDPs have resulted a big reduction in holding.

Porter, me dim?:hmm:
Have you heard of SEMAC?:confused:

I was given a plan on a 8+ hour flight the other day giving me a range of times to be at Rivet. As we were fast it allowed for a 7 minute delay at the gate if I wished.:zzz:

This is reality now! :ooh:

While not taking the delay at the gate we did fly at a speed to get us to Rivet to the minute.:ok:

Of course then we got holding.:ugh:

We can do it, as requested, can you?