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MERGED: Air India almost arrives at Essendon ...
Staggers me that the ATSB aren't pursuing this further. Good to see the keen eye of ML TWR/APP !
Looks as though they got to overhead the Maribyrnong River at 1000ft before changing track. Air-India 787 warned off wrong Melbourne Airport landing | Plane Talking Missed Approach: Air India AI301 | carry-on Air India (AI) #301 ? 14-Jan-2014 ? YSSY / SYD - YMML / MEL ? FlightAware An Air-India Dreamliner 787 was at low altitude on Tuesday morning and about to touchdown at the wrong Melbourne Airport, Essendon rather than nearby Melbourne International, when it was warned off by AirServices Australia. A full and well illustrated account of the sub-standard flight safety standards displayed by the Air-India crew has been published here on the Carry On site. It nearly made Melbourne the setting for a fourth high profile wrong airport landing in recent times, as outlined on Carry On. Or even a fifh if the Ethiopian landing of a 767 at the wrong airport near Mt Kilimanjaro in December is included in what looks like an epidemic of in-flight clumsiness to the general media, yet is statistically insignificant given the overall volume of safe world wide air traffic movements. The ATSB has confirmed that it has been notified of the Air-India incident but has decided that it will not launch on inquiry. Based on the further information we received from the operator, air traffic control and from the crew we decided that there was nothing systemic that warranted an investigation. Basically, the system operated as it was designed to do. Two pilots ask to evaluate the known details of the incident were divided over the ATSB’s decision. The pilot who supported the decision said that inter alia there was no probability that anything the ATSB might say or do would have the slightest effect on Air-India, and that it would amount to a costly and pointless exercise in hand holding. The other pilot saw merit in an inquiry because he believed there was too high an incidence of flight path deviation incidents near Melbourne’s main airport, in part the result of ‘sub-optimally designed’ approach paths and that the Air-India incident was an opportunity to examine a bigger picture. Both pilots believed that the Air-India 787 could have been pulled up with ease on the Essendon runway, which before Melbourne’s nearby International airport was built was used by jets as large as Boeing 727-200s in regular domestic service. They were also aware of anecdotal accounts of a DC-10 lining up to land on the Essendon runway sometime in the 70s, and being warned off at the last minute. |
Won't be the first won't be the last
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Anyone know if there is any truth to this....Air India cleared for the ILS 34L in SYD.... apparently nicely established on 34R.
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Shouldn't complain too much - a least they were (mostly) managing to do a visual approach.
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Well they're operating domestic sectors in Australia why shouldn't they be investigated? Given the amount BS the locals have to indure if they can't get simple thngs right like finding a runway why should it be tolerated? If QF did it CASA would be all over them.
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If QF did it CASA would be all over them. |
Stand by for the usual "Close Essendon Airport now!" chorus...................
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Air India B787 almost lands at wrong Melbourne airport
An Air-India Dreamliner 787 was at low altitude on Tuesday morning and about to touchdown at the wrong Melbourne Airport, Essendon rather than nearby Melbourne International, when it was warned off by AirServices Australia.
A full and well illustrated account of the sub-standard flight safety standards displayed by the Air-India crew has been published here on the Carry On site. It nearly made Melbourne the setting for a fourth high profile wrong airport landing in recent times, as outlined on Carry On. Operating AI301 from Sydney to Melbourne VT-ANM approached and crossed Melbourne from the east following usual tracking paths for aircraft inbound from the north-east to YMML’s active Runway 34. The flight crew initiated a right turn to lining up for Essendon’s Runway 35 mistaking it for YMML’s Runway 34. Essendon Airport is located 4.5nm to southeast of Melbourne International Airport, and has a similar cross-runway layout to Melbourne with the runway headings only offset 1 degree Detailed info including flight track here Missed Approach: Air India AI301 | carry-on also here news Air-India 787 warned off wrong Melbourne Airport landing | Plane Talking |
Don't they have ILS at Melbourne?
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HD
not on that runway! Furthermore, in some circumstances, approaching MEL from the east lines you up with runway 27 at Essendon, which has the same runway configuration as MEL - a trap waiting for the unwary, for sure. I suspect that the reason that an ILS has not been installed is that when the wind is out of the north it is normally very clear. Ozzie rules :rolleyes: |
I second the investigation.... But investigate what . the situation did not deteriorate to a level at which some thing wrong happened.The radar did its job the crew did its job the aircraft showed reliability so in all for a change The system worked! :D:D
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Doesn't the STAR have a height requirement of Above 2500' at sheed? Not sure how you could land at essedon with that restriction in the box. 👍
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I had a listen on liveatc last night quickly and it seems they initially requested vectors for the VOR approach on 34, but in the end were cleared for a visual right base after vectors, so weren't on the STAR.
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(TID EDIT. Original offensive post removed.)
Originally Posted by Break Right
Doesn't the STAR have a height requirement of Above 2500' at sheed? Not sure how you could land at essedon with that restriction in the box.
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Interesting that in this day & age with all the sophisticated gear on board the most basic thing about when flying a plane gets lost, situational awareness, something getting more & more 'lost' in it's own right!
You know how it is we have a high level of awareness whilst in IMC on the dials & doing what we are trained the most to do, fly way up there but when it comes to breaking out of cloud for Eg we seem to say/go phew glad that's over we are now visual...easy peezy we can relax...........well not so in this case & quite often to:-) ATC often spoon feed these guys as they simply don't trust them especially CTA steps by way of height restrictions, & tracking IE vectors, the most basic of navigation. Sounds like they where being vectored & to report rwy 34 in sight. Looking around out the window it could easily be mistaken EN drome as Tulla as the rwy complex is similar (not identical though). Sure ultimately the drivers are to blame Capt in particular but as a side subject here have we set ourselves up with a tool that leads us down the garden path? That tool being highly developed automation. (yes I now there are numerous threads on this subject but worth a mention here anyway) We can make a 100 airframes all perfectly identical but can we make a 100 pilots the same? Now there lies a perplexing question & not even the most hideous phyco testing crap can guarantee anything these days as well trained, well checked & well respected pilots have simply flown into a mountain in a fully serviceable machine mostly 'cause they where suckered into it. I've landed on the wrong Rwy at MB 100 yrs ago due circumstances that changed at the last minute, we are all human:-) Wmk2 |
I wonder how good is the AI Route Brief? Does it detail the proximity to each other and the similarities of Essendon and Tullamarine?
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Bloggs if they were coming in from SYD the visual procedure for rwy34 it is still via the star with the height requirement at sheed. However if they were off the star on vectors dif story for sure.
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Any folks that fly into MEL regularly, do ATC still drop the "report runway 34 lead in strobe lights in sight" ?
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Bloggs if they were coming in from SYD the visual procedure for rwy34 it is still via the star with the height requirement at sheed. However if they were off the star on vectors dif story for sure. From the flight track it looks like they were tracking round the arc from BOLTY, saw a runway out the window, and had a go at landing on it. (Which would be kind of ironic, when you think how many visual approach cockups happen when we get tangled up with the FMC and autopilot modes, instead of just looking out the window and flying the thing.) |
You can still make a visual approach while TRACKING via the star.The approach over Essendon is a dog. Get rid of it.
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Idiots probably had VOR centre on both ND's and didn't have a look a the picture on the lovely big LCD's Boeing fitted to the 787.
Wouldn't the EGPWS have made a few calls associated with Terrain clearance floor or Runway clearance floor when they weren't lined up on the correct Runway 34 at ML or would EN RWY 35 be in the 787 data base?? Either way.....:D |
Just looked up the A330 Terrain clearance floor warning function of the EPGWS and inside 12 nm from the intended runway the floor is 400' AGL. So unless AI descended below about 730' AMSL ( RWY 34 elev is 330' ) around 12 nm ML RWY 34 threshold then they wouldn't have got a warning. ( unless there is an obstacle close by as well )
Oh well so much for that theory!! |
Looking around out the window it could easily be mistaken EN drome as Tulla as the rwy complex is similar (not identical though). |
Capt, that runway doesn't look like 4000 metres...
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those that have and those who will
let he who is without sin cast the first stone there but for the grace of……. and so it goes for those of us who operate to mel environs often, hard to fathom. for those of us who operate further afield, often rarely or for the first time... not so much |
And the complete lack of any real terminal or apron to speak of, not to mention a severe dearth of other international aircraft wouldn't have set some alarm bells off? I'm not a pilot but even I know the terminals are included in the Jepps. |
Air India B787 almost lands at the wrong airport in Melbourne
Air-India 787 warned off wrong Melbourne Airport landing | Plane Talking
An Air-India Dreamliner 787 was at low altitude on Tuesday morning and about to touchdown at the wrong Melbourne Airport, Essendon rather than nearby Melbourne International, when it was warned off by AirServices Australia. |
For about the third time this has nothing to do with the SHEED visual arrival, pretty hard to line up with Essendon from overhead...:ugh: they were well south of Essendon and being radar vectored visually onto RWY 34 by the sounds of it.
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I can see why this wasn't investigated. Sounds to me like they were being vectored to the VOR (as often happens) and then for one reason or another took a visual approach. This has happened to me on numerous occasions when ATC offer up the visual approach during vectors to expedite the approach or decent. Obviously they then lined up on the Northerly RWY at ESS. Now at some point on that approach either the crew or ATC or both realised the mistake and a missed approach was undertaken. Sounds as though everything actually worked well, someone was on the ball and prevented a c*ckup.
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Originally Posted by emergency000
I'm not a pilot but even I know the terminals are included in the Jepps.
This is PPrune... |
someone was on the ball |
Originally Posted by Capt Claret
(Post 8270489)
I've never heard of anyone, on approach to land, reference the terminal chart and check for location of terminal buildings, nor other parked aircraft. What was on the chart reflected nothing in reality. |
I don't think it was Bolty because the 11dme arc is over the southern shore of the city whereas the aircraft started turning final over the Bayside and straightened out for a YMEN 35 by the time it was over Brighton.
If it had been from Waren, then it should have tracked 319 to Michm first before turning left to track 264 to Bolty. It definitely wasn't the infamous Sheed, as that would have at least required tracking over Monty first and tracking 257 towards Sheed. I dare say a drop from Sheed at 2500 and sharp right would have ended in soiled pants. I agree that the PF probably accepted a visual clearance and was too proud to refuse it - classic mistake. |
MERGED: Air India almost arrives at Essendon ...
Second busiest airport in Aus and doesn't have an ILS on both ends of the longest runway.
We should be embarrassed that our facilities don't match those of most of the world. |
ILS is very good but really not required for 34 YMML. The 787 is Gnss Rnp capable and can virtually get over the end of the runway on centreline on a 3* path by itself if the pilots know what they are doing without any nav aids. Lnav and Vnav are enormously capable in this aircraft and yet the crew didn't use it correctly. Also when is ATC going to modernise there thinking and stop stuffing around with VOR radials. Bloody stuck in the 70s. GBAS approach could also be an alternative.
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At an ATC info night we were informed that foreign carriers were not issued the Sheed arrival because they stuffed it up in the past. "Only for the locals...." I saw a Korean heavy wobble out of the sky onto RWY34 MEL some years ago giving the Sheed a try.
Gotta love the selective way of doing ATC in this country...along with the stupidly steep airspace control steps that stuff up jet arrivals. |
Alice springs is a prime example when landing 30 for insanely high control steps inbound from sydney
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At an ATC info night we were informed that foreign carriers were not issued the Sheed arrival because they stuffed it up in the past. "Only for the locals...." I saw a Korean heavy wobble out of the sky onto RWY34 MEL some years ago giving the Sheed a try. |
Originally Posted by Capt Claret
(Post 8270489)
I've never heard of anyone, on approach to land, reference the terminal chart and check for location of terminal buildings, nor other parked aircraft.
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Aaaah Australia, first world country, with third world aviation infrastructure :hmm:
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