Will Qantas Mainline ever hire another pilot on a permanent contract?
 

Seeing as its now been over four years I believe since Qantas Mainline hired a pilot on a permanent contract I was wondering if it will ever happen again? The amount of people on LOP seems to be substantial and with the boss man blaming everything from "Unions" to "Nasty not play fair Virgin" for the groups problems it seems that there will be a slow but inevitable demise in store.

Anyone with a crystal ball want to comment?

I thought the way it is going, the question should be, will there be a mainline?

There has been and will continue to be a lot of pain for a few years, but I'd guess recruitment will start again in the second half of 2016.

My prediction is that the company will get fleet pay for new hire S/Os, maybe even existing S/Os. I'd like to see fleet pay for all ranks.

My bet is 2016 too.

B-Scale?
 

I've heard QF has something like 300 pilots over 58 & 500 over 55. They can't all stay 'til 70 years old!

As stated on other threads it serves QF's agenda to be able to characterise its pilots as:
- inefficient (even though company actions have caused most of the inefficiencies), and
- overpaid, (even though most S/Os would be F/Os in any other company flying around in crews of two-captains/two-F/Os, and most pilots don't fly the A380).
QF has some quite stark shortages already in some ranks & categories of pilots but is apparently doing its darnedest not to hire until the crisis is bad enough in the community/pilot psyche.

I think 'the plan' is to create the case for a B-scale which will, at some point, see new pilots start on conditions comparable to the competitors.

The irony may be that, given the age profile of the existing QF pilots and the lower cost base a B-scale would provide for QF's 're-expansion', future hirees may get better progression through QF than other companies with similarly low pay rates and younger pilots.

So, if the pay were to be similar anyway, QF may be the place to join if/when hiring begins again.

Just thinking out loud...:O

So sell out next generation to keep your job ? Is that what your saying ?

It means you either sell out or they will set up an alternative flying arrangement where staff from company B fly the routes at Jetstar rates. If AJ mentioned $2billion in savings over the next few years, it's not going to come by keeping the status quo anything.

In some respects you could ask if Virgin will hire again in the next 5 yrs!?

Let's hope both Qantas and Virgin do!

The answer to the original question is 'yes'. The timeframe is 2016/17... maybe a bit earlier. The last intakes were in Jan and Feb of '09 I think. That's probably the biggest gap in recruiting we've ever had.

The question as to what pay scale they will be on is an interesting one.

Personally? Fleet pay. It's a no brainer. It should have been in when I joined direct to the 744 in '95 and I've advocated for it since. We had the opportunity to pursue it when we did EBA7 rollover but lack of leadership meant that we didn't do it.

Things have to change that's for sure. Not just for S/Os but all of us. There are some things that are simply unsustainable. What change and how to implement it will be the truly difficult part.

I can't see hiring on the current award. It is unsustainable. I see some Qantas Tech Crew Australia thing happening.

The predictions on recruiting have been "two years away" for the last four or five years. Like fusion power, it's a chimera which never appears to get any closer to reality.

Personally, I think it's highly unlikely. I very much doubt the 787 will ever arrive. Management will decide those options are worth more being sold than ever being exercised and turned into real aeroplanes and flying real passengers.

Aircraft retirements and route cutting will accelerate if anything and the surplus will grow.

You heard wrong, maybe half that.

I agree!

Perhaps, but it came from someone in that group who's also in a 'fleet focus' group.; it seems logical that they would have some idea.

If that's directed at me, then no; you're doing that! I explained what I believe 'the plan' is. If it plays out like I've described:
- no one will be hired on the 'old' QF contract, (the benevolent leaders have already said as much re 787. Do you think they're bluffing?) or
- like the cabin crew there will be 'an offer too good to refuse' for future QF aspirants and the rest will be history.

The justifications have all even heard before:
- at least it's jobs for Aussies,
- it will be their choice to take the job or not,
- the conditions are still better than a lot of other options,
- this is a great opportunity to get into the industry!
- finally some progression for mainline!
- it didn't kill Cathay did it?

I'm not sure any of us can stop this train, but I'd like to be wrong.:sad:

The B scale already exists and is called Qantaslink. The link is the only part of the mainline group that is expanding. As part of the new 2b restructure qantaslink will be the new entry portal and I can see qantaslink becoming the new qantas domestic product. Qantas mainline will become the international arm only. Jetstar will do the rest.

who will buy QF tickets 11 months in advance anymore
 

traditionally (before GFC) the cheapest international tickets were ALWAYS available as soon as loaded in CRS's, which with most legacy airlines meant around 50 weeks out.

Worked in travel until a few years ago & would get the regulars, those who would go overseas to Europe or USA every Xmas holidays, call as soon as they got back in late Jan to book the following Dec.

But now, no one will book QF & this will also hurt other airlines, so cash flow will dry up, at least as far as QF international is concerned.

Many members of the public are already resigned to the "fact" that QF is stuffed.

The more QF management & the media talk about it, the worse it will get.

Does this mean that QF will offer incredible earlybird deals ?

Think QF is now stuck between a rock & a hard place.

Perhaps they could introduce a Pay to Fly scheme and offer 500 hrs B737 for $30 000. An upgrade program for experienced F/Os wanting to move into the left seat and willing to pay for the privilege could also bring in some extra cash.

Wrong?
 

Not according to the CP International's memo of 7 Nov.

He wrote that the current surplus is 216 and the surplus for the next 8 months would increase 50-60. So, that's about 276. I guess my 300 was wrong but a lot closer than your 'half that'.

I believe those numbers are 'best case' and that they will increase from there.

Hiring in two years? Chimera, indeed.

Both right?
 

Yeah but I think we've got a couple of hundred on LWOP so perhaps the 'half that' is correct in terms of physical bodies in Qantas?

I think you'll find the quoted surplus is excluding those on LWOP, so as they start to return and more aircraft are retired in 2014/15, the situation is going to get fairly ugly.
There will be no recruitment until a change in QF's fleet plan - i.e. more aircraft are ordered.

Regarding Fleet Pay for new S/Os; if the long haul fleet consists entirely of a dozen A380s (as per the last official QF fleet plan published) then S/Os will be on fleet pay by default!

Well, my seniority is in mid 300s and I just turned 50!:rolleyes:
Lots older than me less seniority, about 20 younger than me but more senior.
Hoping to leave shy of 60 but most don't.:hmm:
Some of those on LWOP have no intention of coming back but most would if things change.
How many of you guys advocating fleet pay voted for EBA8?:E

International fleet plan as per October 2013:
9 x 747-400
10 x A330-300
12 x A380

Despite all the negativity around the future for the Qantas fleet, I believe there may still be some surprises around the corner. Which in turn may lead to more pilots being hired (if these aircraft are crewed by mainline pilots).

The 789 is an extremely viable option for mainline, specifically for Australia-Asia, Perth (Bris,Adel) - Dubai, and also Pacific routes.
The rumoured low acquisition price of these aircraft make them a very attractive whether that be through a purchase outright or if capital constrained, on sell to leasing companies for a profit then leasing back.

Secondly, there is a possibility of mainline operating rumoured fleet of 25 A320/321. With a group order for 110 odd A320 and a distinct possibility that Jetstar Hong Kong with fly the same amount of services as RedQ, the aircraft have to go somewhere.

QF were close to an order of A320 prior to Sept 2001 for mainline ops, however a very attractive deal for B738 came about when American Airlines had a sudden excess of 75 NG's on order and QF needed metal fast due to the demise of Ansett.
The NEO's become available early 2016 and A321Neo's would be a perfect fit to replace B767 on golden triangle and off peak Perth routes.
Additional advantages of A321Neo's for mainline is capacity increase over B738 & existing A321, also aerobridge access to 2 forward doors, streamlining turn around and giving premium pax the advantage of boarding separately or turning left on entry.

My figures came from Bid Book using the latest data for BP294. From that in LH there are 138 pilots age 59+, don't know about domestic but I doubt there would be that many.

Old mate,
I was referring to the published fleet plan, not the current QF fleet:
http://www.ausbt.com.au/photos/view/...antas-2021.jpg
A380s flagged to be the only international a/c, 747s retired and any A330s fully domestic.

Reckon that would resolve any debate about S/O fleet pay.
Anyway, I just hope QF has some international aircraft - and pilots - come 2021!!

Still 10 x A330 due back from Jetstar, at least half of which started in Qantas colours originally.

oldmate,
Think there are also 15 747s still operating (6 ERs and 9 regulars)
Although only 9 (all 6 ERs and 3 regulars) have been renovated to the new SkyBedII config. The other 6 get retired as the A330s come back.

438 ,
Inclined to agree with you that the 320/321neo are likely to be the better choice for the narrowbody due to the issues that Boeing has with engines given wing height

Too many Pilots?:hmm:
Paxed yesterday to another crew base to fly today and tomorrow.
So paid for yesterday, plus allowances and a hotel for the night.:zzz:
Obviously short of Captains at said base or they wouldn't use me.:hmm:
Turn up today and instead of an F/O fly with a training Captain in right hand seat, (called in from leave!) because they also don't have enough F/Os.:ugh:
So if we are too expensive it is more due to the way we are being used!:ugh:
Talk on the flight deck about morale, management incompetence etc etc.:hmm:

Moa999
One rumour is that due to the 787 pylon stuff up the A330s may NOT be coming back and the 767s will be here till 2020!:mad::eek:

Why would any sane person apply to QF now?
Just my 2c but I'd take a job with Tiger over QF.

Bbzbbzbzbzbzbzzbzbzb

Of course they will hire again, I would think though it will be on a contract that doesn't resemble anything that is seen in QF at the moment. Just a question of how many years it takes to 'break' the union workforce to allow the 'new' contract.

Tankengine,

I assume that is the rumour referred to here:
Aviation Business: B787 headed for a different role in Qantas?

Certainly an interesting rumour. Would Boeing really manufacture different engine pylons (assume it is already different between the GE GEnx and RR Trent 1000) - though the one of the requirements of swiss cheese design was to standardise parts so you don't get the wrong part on the wrong aircraft

My fleet numbers are from an investor presentation on the Qantas website, for 'future fleet' 2016 onwards.
http://www.qantas.com.au/infodetail/about/investors/fleet-efficiency-engineering.pdf

Tankengine,
My understanding is that the pylon problem only affects the first 4 B787 airframes for Jetstar. Still another management stuff up which will change the aircraft destinations for the first 4! So just a slight delay in the retirement plans of the B767. Hence the delay of HNL going to the A330 now not until Oct14.

Beginning to look like there is something to this engine pylon theory. 787 Route announcements Mel-Dps, Mel-Akl (trial), Bne-Dps. All short routes with long runways.

Looks like they are just trying to find something to use it for to me.

Will Qantas Mainline ever hire another pilot on a permanent contract?
 

Ahhhhhh, No......


How's about we talk about Virgin.....

cynphil,
I heard first eight but perhaps that was engines.:O
Whatever the number it is clear that the early ones will have shortish range.:ouch:

Hiring's pretty slow going at old Virgil. Tiger not so much.

So any chance that Qantas will be hiring over the next 2 years?

Seems somewhat promising if they get the 787s.

The previous chief pilot always said that the next planned hiring was likely to be in 2016. Whilst I cannot see that occurring, I can see a need for late 2017 if the new type goes ahead.

I wouldn't get too excited just yet. Remember there's a couple of hundred pilots on leave without pay in various places around Asia and the Middle East. Many of them with 787 endorsements and families who would be very happy to come home. Until there are enough new aircraft to absorb the LWOP guys and also represent a clear expansion, I don't think we'll see too much recruiting.