As distinct from this incident: http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...u-overrun.html

Caused, or so we are told, by a defective wiper! :hmm:

fl610
The best definition for common sense comes from Albert Einstein.
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices that you acquire by the age of eighteen."
Your common sense is not my common sense or the guy you happen to be sitting next to on the flight deck. We all come from different back grounds and experiences.

For a pilot, Knowledge leads to Experience, which gives Intuitive Judgement (look it up), which gives good pilot behaviours, which is commonly called Airmanship. The learning comes from somewhere, usually self discovery, what works and what doesn't (our own mistakes and near misses) or very close (flight deck) observation of others. However, all the C.R.M. theory awareness courses go no where and are useless if it isn't changed into the good pilot behaviours. Most airline C.R.M. courses are just there to "tick" the box for the airline and don't give the direction to the changes of behaviours (airmanship) and the vast majority of pilots aren't able to knowingly do it for themselves. Just check all the current airline pilot studies/surveys and airline accident reports from around the world.

'b55' that's well put:ok:
There's nothing 'common' in the word commonsense:-)

I agree about with yr analogy re CRM, almost a waste of time & a whole industry has been built around it as I have said earlier so it does one thing I guess, keeps some people in a job but that's about it!.



Wmk2

The only people who don't like CRM are the ones who guys don't like to fly with.

I've Learnt a lot about myself and various behaviours to expect in the flight deck from CRM. When I make a mistake now (generally every flight) I analyse how I made it. I can usually find a cause (ATC distractions, cabin crew last minute requests, PF of PNF asking for unexpected inputs, threats that lead to errors etc etc. Where as a GA Pilot under the mentality you're a poor pilot if you make a mistake, to the airline mentality (a threat lead to an error) etc etc I see the absolute value in it.

Every time you ask the other guy, can I? Would you like, if its okay with you, I'd like, or even just relaying information to the other guy (there's a strong tailwind on base), you're using CRM.

We use this stuff everyday knowingly or otherwise.

"What's the difference John between a copilot and a duck?"

"I told you John" :D

Interesting 'GG' I guess the other 100 or so pilots that I have anything to do with don't like flying with me 'cause I think CRM is a waste of time, you could be right there though but if that's the case then I hope they never change their minds as I enjoy being disliked:ok:

Look we have all been doing CRM in a multi-crew environment from day one (even SP Ops, which I found odd!) it's just that someone coined the phrase (so 2 speak) & has never looked back full knowing it's money for jam!:-)

Each to their own I guess but I do it (CRM training) as I have to & simply don't have a choice!


Wmk2

Don't you ever learn anything at a CRM class that helps you become better at your job?
I'm with GG on this. I often take a wee gem of information away with me that helps me make slightly less mistakes on the line or slightly better decisions. Surely you get something sometimes?

B55 may not post all that often but that one's a gem! :D

My biggest lament with most CRM courses is that whilst learning how others stuffed up is useful, working out how and why I stuff up is priceless. Sadly most CRM courses never go close to that sort of territory. It's time consuming, labour intensive, professionally confronting and difficult to 'measure' as outcomes vary between exercises. Heck, sometimes the lessons that come out of an exercise isn't even related to the person in charge of the exercise but someone else who was a 'team mate' or crew member who couldn't cope, thought something was trivial so didn't take it seriously- and adversely impacted on everyone else, etc.

Finally, when an airline does more CRM than is mandated by the regulator, then I'll know that they take the topic seriously. A couple of hours a year is just tokenism.

I agree with you Keg that most CRM courses are just cut and pastes from other courses and after you've seen a few you have taken most of the lessons from the mistakes discussed.
I think that the decision to go round could well have it's genesis in good CRM in that making decisions that are unpalatable is often difficult to do and is something that a pilot can get better at as their career progresses.it may not be the case here, but it could be. For some pilots ( myself included) it is very easy to be given a theoretical situation at the bar and make the correct decision but in the heat of the moment the " task completion bias" etc makes it less likely they will do the right thing. Just having an understanding of that helps me to at least consider being conservative in the heat of the moment. Having had it explained to me in the classroom has sort of pre- loaded me in the right direction.
Not everyone is affected to the same degree and so some might think that that sounds like tosh, but for me it is helpful. Another way that CRM could have played a role is that if it was briefed that a go round might be on the cards then both pilots tend to ' take it in their stride' a bit better. I've flown with airlines where an approach brief may or may not happen at all and I've flown in airlines where irrelevant things are briefed ad nausium by rote. Not briefing at all was the worst.

Agreed that good CRM would include the possibility of a missed approach being discussed. Hopefully, well before the approach actually commences, when hopefully a plan B (diversion if appropriate) will be agreed upon. And agreed that any briefing should be relevant to the particular situation and not be padded out with a whole lot of unlikely scenarios. A simple briefing for a visual approach may take 20 seconds to deliver. A more detailed briefing for a complex weather/approach situation may take a minute. If it takes longer, someone is probably talking too much and someone is probably no longer absorbing the essential details.

But methinks a decision to go-around is not something that one analyses or discusses at the time, and hence does this action really belong in the CRM basket (or to coin current yuckspeak: 'CRM toolbox')?
A go-around is a drill which hopefully is automatic at least to the extent that both pilots simply react to the situation requiring it and get on with it.

CRM should not be confused with CDF.

Yeah I agree with that.
One thing I think needs to be acknowledged is that much of CRM IS CDF. Not all of it, but much of it. Trying to separate it out into something stand alone just creates backlash from people who have known much of it for decades. They think....." I know this stuff, it's just CDF and experience, what are these pricks on about? " and then they switch off and miss the one or two things that could have improved their ability to safely operate. Even bob Hoover and Chuck can always improve.

Yep, a bit like keeping briefings short and to the point. If CRM refresher courses are mandated every two years, fer Chrissakes don't make them last two days just to satisfy some CASA whim that it need be so.
Summarise what has been learned by the industry in the past two years - stuff that we will find interesting and useful - feed it to us, give us an exam to ensure that we do indeed 'get it' and let us go home with the feeling that we did actually learn something new.
If that can be achieved in four hours, great. Short and to the point works for this cynical old man.

Gee 'Mach' I must get you on to our CRM Dept, get them to think along the lines you suggest & you'll be my hero!:ok:

Wmk2

Or hopefully your organisation will do what the real CRM experts suggest - capture data about your company's, and similar airline's, incidents and use them as a means of evaluating and improving CRM content and training. This is where SMS can actually be helpful and, again, not just some CASA box that needs to be ticked. LOSA is another option for data capture and was used to good effect by Air New Zealand a few years back.

LOSA tells you 'what'. It doesn't tell you 'why'. More importantly, it doesn't tell you 'why pilot X will do that but pilot y won't'. It doesn't tell ME whether the way I do business will open me up to that sort of 'what' or whether there is a different sort of 'what' that I may be prone to.

Mach, agree to a point. The issue is that there is no set thing of what needs to be covered in CRM. IE there is no 'building blocks' approach to it. There is certainly ver little ongoing professional development for it. We're so busy ensuring that we can fly an V1 cut +5/ -0 knots that we forget that there are a bunch of other things that go towards making a competent crew member.

Excellent point & right on the money!

There doesn't seem to be much development in crew training these days, after the initial rapid development of CRM & the like. Perhaps they are busy trying to design the pilot right out of the flight deck now & don't want to tell us about it. :E

Correct, to an extent. As I said, it is part of data gathering to try to find out "why", and hopefully lead to improved SOPs and training (including CRM training).

CRM courses.....yep, that's good....

BUT courses aren't the end all,...this MUST lead to CRM learning(even those little bits and pieces you don't already have in your mind)...yep, even better....

BUT this learning isn't the end all of it....it MUST be converted into your normal, real (Airmanship) Behaviours....the ULTIMATE goal of all this "stuff"...
if it isn't, then yes ,it is pretty much a waste of time. And the courses don't teach you how to make it a behaviour for you. It is up to you to figure it out. A very big challenge indeed.

BUT IF these behaviours aren't part of YOU DAILY, day in and day out, year after year,
where will you be when those good behaviours are ultimately needed that ONE day in your career when you REALLY need them?

Changing our behaviours is challenging...but can be done. We learned to fly the damn thing! The same with "Airmanship". For example, like doing a go around after touching down when you know it is the best, and safest thing to do.

So IF you are the best you can be at safety /situational awareness, IF you are the best Communicator you can be, IF you are the best Team Player you can be, IF you are the best Leader (PIC/Captain) you can be, then yes, CRM courses aren't going to do much more for you personally any more.
BUT, there is another factor here. You are part of a very specific sub-culture that is your airline group of pilots. That new F/O that sees you there in the CRM class and already knows you to be a very good captain to fly with and that F/O sees you participating, he will be influenced by your behaviour to do better too at all this "stuff". Just possibly that very "bad" day that happens for you, that very F/O will be there with you. At the end of it, he turns to you and says, "WTF, how did we ever manage to get through that?!"
The latest example, is Sullenberger again saying in the newspaper, New York Daily News, June 5th, it was the Teamwork (made up of communications, leadership, positive, supportive attitudes,etc,etc) on the flight deck that gave them the outcome on the Hudson River ditching.

The problem for small operators is the CASA insistence that all changes to their CAR 217 Check & Training Manuals go through an official 'approval' process. Of course CASA charges money for this.

To get a manual approved in the first place usually involves a lot of plagiarism and 'padding out' with extensive course syllabi, so that the CASA people can tick lots of their little compliance boxes.

Nearly every C & T Manual I have seen has its genesis in old Ansett stuff that has been around for 40 years now. It may have been good in its time, but now it is oh-so-stale. In the real world, the small operator does not have the means, the time or the will to deliver all this stuff anyway. It is rarely taught in the first place and never updated.

How I would love to be in the business of chucking out all the stale old CRM and cyclic training that bores everyone sh!tless and update it with other operators' recent experiences. For example, if there have been no recorded failures at V1 in the past five years on a particular aircraft type, dump the requirement for a V1 cut on every simulator check on that type. Use the simulator time saved to put in scenarios that have actually occurred, or are more likely to occur, on that type. To satisfy certification get CASA to agree that a V1 failure is included once in a two year cyclic program. But try and sell that to CASA.....and not have to pay for the sale. For a start they would have to amend their CAOs (or whatever they are calling them now).

If only CASA would butt out of the process.

Good luck getting someone at CASA to put their name down as " the guy who stopped V1 cut training" . That would involve making a big call and then taking responsibility for the call. Much easier to count the years until retirement. It will happen eventually however it will be on the back of ICAO EBT and therefore nobody at CASA will have to take responsibility.
Would the CRM situation be better if NASA produced an annual 4 hr CRM course that was endorsed by ICAO and taught to all ICAO state aircrew by their airline ground instructors. That way a ' building block' approach could be taken, everyone would be learning the same stuff each year and after a decade you would at least know that everyone has the basics. Make it a 3 hr course and each airline can add an hour of material specific to their operation at the end.

My generation have grown up a lot more sensitive and emotionally in touch than previous generations. We understand and can read other peoples feelings a lot better and are also more accepting of concepts such as gay marriage and equality, refugee rights and indigenous welfare.

I have found that as a result, people of my generation can accept and understand the concepts behind CRM better than some of the older people here.

I find that crew synergy flows more harmoniously when I work with people closer to my generation.

I always give the cabin crew little hugs or air kisses at the beginning of the day and often bring in little gifts like chocolates or sweets for everyone to enjoy. I always say please or thank you and 99% of the time I can tell if a fellow crew member is a little stressed which is when I may offer a quick shoulder massage.

Being emotionally in tune is the first and most important step in effective CRM. As I mentioned before not everyone gets that, especially some of the older boys and they sometimes don't appreciate my offers of a gentle back rub (I can work out quickly who does and doesn't!) but I guess as these guys retire there will be more of my generation on board and it can only lead to more effective CRM! :)