VIRGIN AUSTRALIA EBA
 

Since our company closed down our vbpilot website, we may as well discuss our concerns on PPRuNE.

The second EBA draft is not much better than the first one and it is very likely that Virgin pilots will take industrial action in the near future. The only smart move by the company would be to promise the backpay 24 hours before the new EBA document goes up for vote. Otherwise, it will be a NO vote again by the majority of pilots. Can't believe that we are now a full cost airline with still budget airline salaries...

The person who shut down the VB Pilots website doesn't even live in Australia if you had bothered to do some research. := I'm sure though that they have been in VA Management for the whole time they have been working for someone else.......:D

Union,

It is back up and running. How about keeping all this in house until a final decision is made hey? Click on this link. Your old login details will work. Not everyone shares your opinion....

Virginetics

jeez union, back in the 70's, we went out on the grass for a week for 2 bucks fifty and the Union heavy weights got a new beach shack.

Union aka Freight.dog????
 

Union, just from the wording of your post and being new here - (hmmm I think b.s)

You wouldn't be freight.dog would you???

Now I am not a smart man, but phrases such as, "will take industrial action" and "we are now a full cost airline with still budget airline salaries.." sound exactly like freight.dog...

A quick search on previous posts by freight.dog indicates all freight.dog's previous Virgin comments have been lost in cyberspace???

Is Union infact freight.dog ???? ;)

That is the most ridiculous post I have seen in a while.

Mods end it now. It is a wind up from someone who clearly has no idea of what is actually going on.

The end.

Yigy2,

I think you are quite correct regarding your suspicions of the ancestral family links of the Freight Dog clan and the Union Clan.

I think they are more akin to the inbreeding families of Tennessee or Kentucky but Mr Union is more than likely to show us his knowledge on the subject and his real agenda here very quickly if not already.

It is funny when the likelihood of a yes vote becomes stronger and stronger the more vocal and desperate the proponents of a no vote become.

Funny how they would prefer to argue the point in an open forum rather than the site that provides more fact than fiction.

Funny how they posture such gems as " will take industrial action" when there is nothing further from the truth.

Funny how they seem to appeal to the masses when I think they are desperately trying to send a message to the company.

The moderators will more than likely take action but in the mean time watch this little fella squeal as his beloved No vote vanishes.

If he is actually employed by VA then this is the weakest link that we all have to account for when we consider our next vote. Having the likes of Messrs Freight Dog and Union in charge of my industrial future would be industrial suicide.

Ah the bravado of youth again!

Why jump all over Union? Who cares what his old pseudonym was?? Is he or she wrong? Is VA management offering full cost carrier wages or budget? Simple question. Full wages or budget wages?

If the answer is Budget wages (which it is), then why the aggression?

As for whether industrial action might occur, everyone is allowed to speculate...he/she has a 50% chance of being correct.

All that patronising bs about the bravado of youth....sounds like some old dispute pilot with the usual been-there-done-everything can't-be-told superiority complex. How soon before retirement, gentlemen???

Well passive you seem to have a handle on everything about VA.

You ask a question and answer it in the next sentence.

You put the likelyhood of industrial action down to the roll of a dice.

You dismiss a poster for having "been there done that" but offer no other insights.

Nice second post.

What's the difference?

Sounds like the locals in Papua New Guinea who agree to a lease price on land, used for a declared industry, then further down the track attempt to increase the lease price because one has put a building or some other structure on the land.

One agrees to work for Virgin for a price and conditions no matter whether it is operating as an LCC or not. If Virgin upgrade their service does the job description change if you still fly the same aircraft? Does this same wage discussion also apply to cleaners, check-in staff etc.?

Sure, I'll wait for the incomming... just asking a couple of questions!! I'm retired now from the aviation industry after 40 years and have never worked for or travelled with Virgin.

The difference Animalclub, is that LCC's use their low cost title as a reason to put downward pressure on wages. Ie " we can't pay xyz wages like a full service carrier, because we're a LCC".

The reality is that VA is the second biggest airline in Australia. It's profitable and a full service carrier. VA could pay QANTAS wages and still have much lower operating costs than QANTAS. yet some pilots are intent on comparisons with tiger, jet star and Skywest eba's. :ugh:

Pammy A.

Why would the A330 be paid the same as the 777? The only thing in common (for now) is that they are both WB. Obviously one does LH international, the other SH domestic.

Dont get me wrong, would be great.

I wonder what VA's actions will be if/when voted no?

This is not a wind-up but legitimate questions.

Will the Tiger pilots enjoy the same EBA conditions?

Will the 320/ 737 and A330/ A330 conditions be aligned?

I am sure they will also appreciate getting a new uniform, and having it paid for by the company. :ok:

Pammy

A couple of quick points, but I argue neither way. It does not affect me, so I have no right.

If you argue that the 330 should get as much as the 777, shouldn't you also argue that the E190 should get the same as the 737? If not, pray tell, what is the difference in principle.

Not all VAI commuters get the assistance of positive space. There is also argument that commuting is not a right, but a privelege, and therefore should not be a part of an agreement (EBA).

And: Do you really want to commute domestically? Take it from one who has done a fair bit of it, even with positive space, it's a pain in the arse, it's expensive, and takes you away from home for considerably longer than being domiciled in your base. There is a big difference in commuting on a domestic roster and the five or six trips (56 day roster), on a long haul roster.
Be careful what you wish for.

SS

Exactly. Why is it so hard for people to see that and just assume anyone who is against the proposed method is against integration completely? In reality, integration is a good thing....the current proposed method of it is not.

Pilots about to receive a tanning?
 

I highly doubt that VA's HR leaders would really screw over the Pilots. They espouse fair and transparent processes and highly value their modest workforce of good people striving to do the right thing.
After all, HR is exactly that 'human resources', they value the human aspect in a pilot. They are prepared to go out on a limb, or should I say an aileron, to ensure a fair outcome. That's just the kind of people HR breed.

Seriously, can you imagine HR taking the blade to pilot salaries just so they don't get a spanking from Il Deuce or get a reduction in their performance bonus? Never. Pilots have worked extremely hard to make VA Australia's new premium carrier and I can't imagine HR responding by offering unreasonable pay scales. That is not in the company's nature.

HR 'are the people for the people', thats right guys and gals, HR exist for YOU. Their own self interests never raise its head. So do not fret, do not digress and lose focus on what is in important - the fare paying passenger. That is who you signed up to help, that's your commitment to flying. Forget remuneration, dancing around like a 'd-grade porn star' exhibiting flair (some staff still do), forget having the necessary 'must haves' and forget synergies and alliances and dare I say Unions, or integration and seniority, it is not important, those things are selfish. It's what is in your heart that counts!
I am certain many of you, the majority in fact, look forward to John and Richards road shows where these men of integrity will put your doubts at ease and offer up a fair, reasonable, liveable salary commensurate with the airlines values. Never forget one of Brett and Richard B's almost prophetic statements - "It's all about choice".

Cactus, nicely said. Love it :p

Cactus Jack. Absolutely nailed it. :ok::D summed it up perfectly.


.

Cut nose spite face.
 

Point 1

freight.dog I to am an effected Domestic FO (probably junior to yourself in all likelihood!). Its time to face up to a few realities.

The time for winner (Domestic FO) takes all has been and gone with the last vote. Many of our FO colleagues voted 'NO' falling for the promise of a 'tightening' of the integration clause under a 'mandate'. It got tightened alright and it moved toward the CFO position! Is this the end of the world? NO. How many people are we talking here? 35 worst case scenario. Can they jump you for your first command? NO.

The company has made it very clear that its had a guts full of the whole integration show and I can see why. They have stated through the unions that if this fails we are headed for silos. Silos means 3-5% growth per annum if you are lucky. Don't forget, Tiger 320s are in the wings and we will start waving goodbye to Coffs, Ballina, Sunshine Coast and many others very shortly. Ejets are getting older and ATRs are getting newer (you got the picture - its not pretty). We will have to wait decades and decades for a left seat move if silos are the result.

Under the current Integration proposal, as opposed to the last one, we loose some seniority to CFOs sure. But what do we gain? Have a read of this article:

Virgin Australia

We gain the ability to perhaps fly one of these as an FO while we wait and more importantly our Senior Captains can fly them as Captains. For us that means movement. Something we won't have under a silo given slowed domestic growth and other companies (Tiger/Skywest) accelerated growth. Would you like to see our Senior guys not move while outsiders take DE 350 commands? Whilst I like those senior dudes I think I'd like them even more if they moved onto another growing fleet leaving space for me one day!

Another option that we risk is pure Date of Joining. If this happens my friend you might as well leave Australia as you will never see the left seat in your lifetime. In actual fact this was the original AFAP and VIPA proposal 2 years ago believe it or not. Only through phone calls, emails and long chats did we get it to come back into our favour. Now I'm not saying I'm happy about losing seniority to CFOs but I know I'd prefer the current model to a silo or a pure DOJ.

Let me also point out that as technology evolves and these big machines become more efficient suddenly routes that were once unprofitable become profitable. An A350 might make money where the 777 doesn't. All you need is 5 more on top of the current 5 and hey presto we've just moved 35 spots up the list. What I'm saying is that you need to take an ultra long term view of things. 35 spots is one indusction course difference, hardly worth canning 30 years of Long Haul opportunities is it?

Finally sometimes in Integration like in everything you can't have it all your own way. You've got to have a compromise. We got Command protection and Pac Blue put to the bottom of the list. Its hardly the worst outcome is it?

Point 2:

Industially charged 'NO' voters, I agree with many of your points but everything has a time and a place.

The CEO is not going to give us Business class so can we just stop wasting time going over the same diatribe over and over. That is not to say that one day when the CEO has moved on that we might be able to bargain with someone that doesn't feel so passionately about it. Why is he so passionate about it? Well I guess he is trying to get as many Business class passengers as possible from Qantas. What does that mean for you and I? Nothing immeadiately but in the long term. 1. Job Security 2. More money to buy more planes and more equipment with 3. More ground to bargain with at the next EBA (12 months away from begining negotitations).

Trying to bargain with the CEO whose entire strategy is Business class after not exactly stellar profit announcements is a complete and utter waste of our time and resources. Lets fight the wars you and I can win hey! Qantas are blessed with ALL staff (Cabin Crew etc) riding in Business next to the CEO of CSL or BHP. Can you imagine some of the conversations and carry on they overhear and see? Great for us not great for them. Lets pick the Business class war another time lads.

Skywest get Business class on the ATR and F50 if they travel overseas. The F100 sim is in Australia and the pilots travels domestically and therefore economy is the go. The overseas business class war is to be fought by our 777 pilots not us as it is they that have to sit week in week out in economy to Malaysia. The F50 will be retired and with 18 frames the ATR Sim will magically appear on Australian soil.

Skywest 320 pilots receive very little if no allowances (all day trips), no drafts and go to one or two places only at this point. Their fleet has an enormous question mark over it as they don't have a great need for the machine and JB isn't into having people sit around! Tiger have 320s interestingly enough. Maybe Skywest will be the LCC (as suggested ina nother thread). Hows that clause look in the EBA?

The Skywest EBA has mixed rosters with reserves mixed with flying and 8 days off total. I get double their days off most months and if I want can make more than their Captains with drafts and allowances. The majority of their work are day trips to mine sites, they have no bidding system apart from simple days off requests I believe. I overnight on the Gold Coast and Bali when it suits me. They overnight at Arglye, cool. I guess thats why no Virgin pilots are applying to Skywest!

The CEO put it in writing that we would not receive backpay. What more warning do you want? Skywriting perhaps? I suggest you contact your union regarding this matter.

Executive bonuses in Australia ARE a problem and given the profit results I think might need scrutiny. I'd suggest the forum for this is not an EBA vote. Shareholder meetings or ASIC are far more appropriate.

'737 pilots are getting 3%'. A330 pilots are grossly under paid and if you think it should stay that way you need shock therapy. Pushing them as high as possible gives us room to move later down the track. Should they (330) make more than 777? What planet are you on? NO.

'Embraer pilots are getting a bigger payrise'. Yep spacing them the same as 330 guys from us. Less whinging in the crew room and less likelihood of the skippers moving to the 73 or more likelihood of me moving to it as 175k aint the worst command wage I've seen on a seats to dollars ratio. Just ask the Jetstar 320 guys. Actually don't bother they'll tell you they are pulling 250k regularly/easily with overtime (my eyes roll, yet another pilot inferiority complex).

'But the 73 makes all the money we should get more' (i think the atrs making a bit to just quietly!). Do you have any mates at QF on the 73 or 320 JQ guys that will tell you the truth? We ain't doing too bad guys.

'Commuters get no help' agree if anything they get some sort of weird/anti treatement from certain people in the company. Those people need couselling and need to get over it. Pilots commute as they always have, they aren't a contagious disease. Commuters get no EBA help thanks to Colgan and CASA as I understand it. Its no reason to give them a hard time however. I love the Captains that try to make a point of shooting them down: get a life seriously, they're our collegues.

Will Tiger pilots get the same conditions etc? No but they will get all the growth and a job all unlikely if the deal doesn't go ahead!

Industrial Action? Qantas pilots wore ties and got Told off by FWA! What exactly do you think will happen to us? Dreaming. Maybe we should just wait for the change of Government. I'm sure they're going to be sympathetic to union demands. Hang on we're all Liberal voters aren't we...? Individual contracts sound cool- Not!

'They are corrupt and bullies'. Ok well take that up with the Integrity department or a Commonwealth body whats that got to do with the EBA sorry? Strange.

Finally pick your time pick your place. $23mil profit aint the time or place. When its in the hundreds of millions sure. 1982 is gone, time to face a new reality. The boom is gone, people are being retrenched. bereal_getreal.

Cheers. Bye.

As an outsider very interesting to read.
It is quite interesting to read people justifying to accept a lower total remuneration package than what was offered the first time. Not many guys would vote for something like that. You guys must be a companies ideal employee!!!
As for the brand new poster above, I work with many Skywest guys and they travel confirmed business whenever they travel O/S with any airline.
Why would you guys accept less than your regional drivers and the rest of the industry when it comes to duty travel?

bereal_getreal,
Hmmm, smells like HR scare tactics:=
and,
Oops, I smell that HR stench again :=

Are you aware that the nearest company approved A330 simulator with RR engines is 8 hrs paxing time away? I'm sorry that your time has been wasted.

hey freight dog

what does the current eba say about first officer moves? for the sake of being even handed you should do that calculation as i am guessing that it will be a much bigger number if guys are stuck unable to move until they get a command

The regs don't require the sim to have the same engines as the aircraft.

QANTAS never had a 767 sim with RR engines, nor a 744 sim with GEs.

VB might want to use one with rollers, the FOI might want them also, but the regs don't require it.

Hey Freight Dog

From what I hear a lot of the recent transfers from VAI are struggling, extra sims, extra line training, pulled offline etc. I wouldn't consider them too much of a threat. The company is not going to put someone with a poor performance history up for a type change or upgrade.

Well I finally read some of the proposed doc. (thanks Greenie! :ok:)
So the 737 guys are really not getting much at all are they?? With no backpay and only 3% its not really even cost of living is it over the life of the agreement.
Also read the duty travel policy. That would have to be seriously the worst duty travel agreement in the industry wouldn't it?

As an observer from the opposition I would suggest you look into the soon to be completed deal for QF long haul.
The company wanted/threatened, no back pay, no First Class etc etc.:hmm:

They grounded the company and it went to FWA:8

Guess what, they gained a few small efficiencies and life goes on for us with soon to be collected back pay, 3% per year, still pax P etc etc.:ok:

JB wants to compete, he may as well pay the price.:E

If you really want to gain an understanding of EBA negotiations & management tactics, have a read of this book -



It will also give an insight into the true relationship between management & pilots.

don't use the virginetics website for anything else than the simulator notes. IT IS MONITORED BY MANAGEMENT PILOTS.

We all know about the "black list of pilots" and we all heard about the reasons why the most experienced CRM instructor in Australia was made redundant from Virgin.

Just be careful guys (it is better to use PPRuNe)....

Let me see. You started this thread by saying "management" closed down the old website. Now, apparently, they monitor the new one. You were incorrect first time, and who really gives a **** if they monitor the new one anyway? How would that be any different anyhow? Reckon you might need to get yourself a new tinfoil hat. The old one obviously leaks a bit. :rolleyes:

honestly, porch monkey do you not care that the best CRM facilitator in Australia was made redundant because he stood up against corruption and he was against changing pilots training documents. Do you not care about the black list of pilots who never get promotions because they have expressed their opinions in open forums? Do you not care about budget airline salaries for Virgin? Do you not care about the fact the an Airbus captain has to pax in economy class from SYD to PER to operate safely back to SYD without fatigue. What do you care about?

And of course the integration clause will provide such a transparent selection process there will be no possible place for any shenanigans...

union, very sound advice. For those who like privacy and don't want to be monitored by I.T on behalf of HR, I would suggest refraining from using work computers or IPhones for anything other than legitimate work activities. I.T use tracking software, key logger programmes and other such software to watch you, so don't be naive and think that they don't. And when the time suits them they can and will use it against you, and often you won't even officially know. Missed promotions, career stalling, extra 'people management' by supervisors/managers, its all part of their game. Hell, they can even run a scan for porn watchers/users/downloaders/sharers/savers and simply target some individuals while choosing to ignore others doing the same thing!

I know personally of one government council who has covertly installed tracking program's on maintenance staff work cars. The software records where and when they travelled, how long it took, how long they stopped at each location, even how many times the vehicles doors were opened, I kid you not....so be careful.
Now, I'm not saying VA's loyal, people friendly fair and equitable HR team would ever stoop to undertaking such spineless, gutless and pathetic actions, as that would display a sense of weakness and having no balls, but hey you never can tell these days, isn't that right HR?? I mean that would be as low as displaying nepotism towards family and friends within the company, and surely would never occur?

I would like to thank you all for the input you have made here. As someone from the opposition and smaller brother I have gained a fair bit of what the attitude is in regard to this EBA. I have read all the updates as well.

To me, as someone who has built up a significant amount of flying experience, it is quite disappointing to see how pilots fight over one thing. It is seniority. What a frigging joke.

Choosing to be a pilot in Australia really is a **** career choice! Virgin Australia was the featured 'golden child' for job choice over the last 3-4 years. I can say though, now as the company matures and growth declines, pilot opportunities will also decline in rate of turnover and therefor promotion.

Just remember one thing in this country for those younger pilots. It doesn't matter your performance. Just be lazy, get a pass only, get onto a seniority lis as early as possible and pay for it as much as you need to!

Well done boys and girls. You deserve this debate!

"Blind Freddy can see this EBA will get through"

Big call from an "observer". The result is far from certain at this stage.

Scare enough people and it will get up. That seems to be the tactic we are seeing again.

History certainly has a habit of repeating itself, VA is no different.

Oh and just for the record, I once overheard a conversation by management in a different department about organising key logger software to be installed on a computer. Not tinfoil hat stuff.

Whether they are different or not isn't the point. No one should be under any illusion that management is anything but management everywhere you go these days. The point is, what are you going to do about it, or what is it going to cost you to do something about it? And will you win? The answer only YOU as an individual can answer. I don't give a toss whether anyone is monitoring what I do at work. Even here. If you think having a nom de plume gives you any anonymity you're kidding yourself. VA might be a lot of things, but as a place to work I can only go with what I've experienced. I've worked for a f%cking lot worse. If you think it will change anything, vote no and try your luck. That's what it amounts to. Cost us $$ last time......

Oh, and I overheard a manager say once that VA was getting A320's. What exactly does that prove?

This new EBA includes:

no real payrise for the B737 (only CPI),

we still have no credit for the 30 minutes sign off time when calculating max duty times,

flight duty limitations Table B can still be used if a MEL or SYD crew transits PER, which means that someone can sign on at 3 AM and be rosterred for 12hrs (how safe is that?),

paxing in economy class,

no proper crew meals, and

no "back pay".

The last time I voted in 2007 only 53% of pilots agreed to the current EBA (big victory for the company, since they offered the bare minumum and the pilots voted yes for it)

This EBA is not much better, but I guess pilots will not stick together to try to improve the terms and conditions.

History has proven that most pilots accept anything without any thoughts. For example, when the 777 or the A330 was introduced people accepted it without even knowing the salaries. Commuters still take drafts from BNE during their off days and therby shooting themselves in the foot. Company is probably laughing at us pilots since they know that they can do what ever they want with us and we will still happily accept it.

I'm an outside observer and fellow LCC pilot working in the U.S. I also use VAA exclusively if I pay for a ticket, including your business class trans-pacific product. Kudos; excellent service and a very comfortable 14 hour journey.

Regarding deadhead and Staff travel in Business class, and as a point of reference for you from a similar type airline contract -

1. If a Business class seat is available within 30 minutes of departure it will be assigned to the crew. This applies to staff travel and deadhead.

2. If the deadhead segment is over 5 hours or precedes a red eye transcon, business class will be assigned to crew. This was introduced partly as a result of crew arriving after a 5 hour transcon in economy, faced with operating another 5 hours back and promptly walking of the aircraft and calling in fatigued. Stranding 140 pax in Seattle or San Francisco.

3. Only aisle or window seats may be assigned to crew.

It's my opinion that deadheading in Business class is in fact a matter of safety in many circumstances. It's my observation; when pax are aware that you are working, they appreciate the fact that you are less likely to become a fatigue hazard on subsequent flights due to a business class seat.

I hope you'll excuse the intrusion. It's your contract, however I thought a constructive comparison of other pilots T&Cs may be usefull.

Witnessed these countless times over the years.