Qantas AIPA FWA Ruling Thurs 17th Jan
 

Can't say I'm excited. Good luck to all involved.

It does explain why the 'revised flying program' due out in mid December hasn't yet been promulgated or filtered down just yet. Waiting to see what FWA has done.

Invest in Ansell shares!

My fearless predictions:

1. Term will be for the next three years until end of 2015. We may see end of 2014 but i doubt it.
2. QF will get the CAO48 exemption or at least a version of it. There may be some 'humanising' rules in it that will prevent SYD-PER-SYD back of the clock (or QF's risk assessment will prevent that anyway) but the general principle applies.
3. AIPA will get probably get back pay to 1 July 2011. 3+3+3+3+3 will be my bet.
4. No significant changes beyond that due to complexity of award. Rest will be playing at the edges. Swings and roundabouts for both sides.

Win for both sides, loss for both or a victory for one side or the other?

Forgetting the fact that the Qantas brand is the big loser of the grounding and a proper negotiation would have probably meant more of a victory for both sides.

Shared blank lines perhaps?

And undoubtedly the Company will have been "given the right to manage"! Can't wait to see Wirthless front and centre some time tomorrow!

Hope you are right about the back pay Keg, there's a few less palatable possibilities in that area....

Oh yes. Forgot about the SBL. I've got no doubt they'll be in given that both sides indicated 'no objection' to that one. Not a big deal to my thinking but then I've been advocating those since I first joined Qrewroom in the late '90s.

It'll be interesting to see what credence FWA give to the 'compromise' solutions put forward by AIPA on a number of occasions (and comprehensively rejected by Qantas each time). If FWA see that AIPA made a lot of effort to reach a compromise deal and QF just stonewalled then maybe AIPA may get a few unexpected victories. Or alternatively they may simply not give a stuff and go with QF's 'commercial imperative'.

I guess we'll know shortly after 1630hrs tomorrow.

My concern with the compromise position is that it then became the AIPA Position in the eyes of FWA, thereby bringing the determined position closer to that put forward by QF.

I hope you are correct, Keg, re AIPA bring handed a few victories for being the 'good guys' wrt compromise.

I cant really see any big surprises in the FWA judgement, a few exemptions to CAO48 but everyone else has them, dont worry, be happy. :oh:

SBL, yes about time.

CAO48 variations, 3 crew DBX and LAX will make almost 50% of 380/744
s/o's redundant.........I hope this does not happen.

Qantas has been carrying a surplus of several hundred pilots for a couple of years now and during that time has been managing it by burning annual leave and long service leave. One can only speculate as to what their next step is. Like the pilots, I suspect management is waiting to see where the lines are drawn for the next couple of years and then (unlike the pilots) will deploy the appropriate pre-prepared strategy. It won't carry the surplus forever.

Won't happen, the variation doesn't provide that much scope. Emirates operate two Capt, two F/o's to Australia from Dxb and back under the equivalent of the JAA regs FTLs which are less restrictive than the CAO48 variation.
Reduction in s/o numbers will occur mainly by the aircraft operating dxb-Lhr-dxb two man crew, 30 in 7 won't be a problem until the dxb-syd(mel) sector home but that will have two s/o's so no problems.

With the amount of retirements forecast over the next 10 years in both SH and LH I think management will continue to manage surpluses with lwop instead of redundancies. :ok:

Disclaimer though is Joyce is unpredictable. :ugh:

"Unpredictable" is a very generous descriptor in my opinion (I can think of others), but I agree with your views on the SYD-DXB crewing requirements.

Looking at distance calculators online, the distance SYD-DXB is almost identical to the distance LAX-SYD, so I don't think even CAO48E could reduce the crew complement to less than four pilots.

Stalin, afaik, the 30/7 reprieve is only available if it's all heavy crewed. Spreading it over 8 day's may work tho

Sorry Keg - but I think you've been sniffing fumes. FWA does not act fairly for employees.

I really do hope people dont lose their jobs. But... you have to look to what happened to engineering just after our eba was sorted, to get a pointer as to what is going to happen to you.

Probably the one major difference from the pilots situation and the engineers is the company keeps on harping on about less maintenance for these pretty new planes, hence less jobs. However, these planes still require two guys up the front no matter how advanced the planes are.

FWA Decision - all 125 pages!

No wage increase for all of 2011 ??

Shared Blank Lines?

I think so but current PPL holders to get element 3A average overtime when they do one. Stand to be corrected very hard to work it out.

Yeah that is going to be a minefield.

Pilots didn't get much at all and the Company scored a 15 month pay freeze followed by a 4.5% initial pay rise. Apart from that their Honours didn't really seem to want to change the status quo in any meaningful way.

First read.. No CAO48E, but changes that AIPA already agreed to will be implemented such as SYD-PER returns.

FRMS will not over-ride agreed flight time arrangements. Pilots can be paxed on "Group aircraft" in preference to paying a competitor. No real changes to redundancy provisions.

Nothing really earth shattering. One wonders how both AIPA and the Company will now view this process.

Qantas stonewalled negotiations for 2 years, in order to achieve that?!

Alan and his camp of merry men must be feeling a little deflated.

Well done to AIPA negotiators for having a significant number of the CWD positions accepted into the determination.

Didn't we cover this a couple of weeks back? You can go to 40/7 if the last flight is heavy crewed. None of the first 30 hours need be. You can go unlimited/7 if they're all heavy crewed. We'll be easily able to do four man to DXB. Then two man to LHR, slip, two man to DXB, then four man home.... particularly if it's an 8 day trip.

I agree ODL. A whole lot of argey bargey from QF for SFA. Playing around the edges in most respects.

Earmuffs, my reading is SBL are in. The element 3A for permanent PLHs is going to be a dog to administer! Of course, won't affect the 767 in a big way. It's probably a win for the junior A380 and 744 crew. They'll do less BL and therefore get more O/T (though none on their BL). The seniors will get average O/T on their blank line. I wonder how long it will be before one of them works out they can now bid BL, still get the element 3A, and do bugger all work. Lol. :D

http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/2013011...0kp7142hcl.pdf


thanks keg, wasn't aware that's how it worked. :ok:

* Pay changes with backpay as advised by earlier posters.
* No change to the current planning divisors used by the Company.
* The Company's request for 112 day Pattern Protection recovery denied - assignment capability increased from 2 to 3 as a compromise (if I read it correctly).
* Shared Blank Lines to be adopted with payment of average overtime to current permanent patter line holders.
* Open time priorities to be in accordance with the AIPA CWD.
* Flight Time Limitations to be in accordance with the AIPA CWD.
* The Company's B Scale claim deferred for future consultation.
* The B787 pay scale deferred for future consultation.
* Allowances in Australian ports to be paid via payroll retrospectively.
* "Scope" clause ("Livery Clause") rejected.
* AIPA's proposed "Group Mobility Scheme" rejected.
* Redundancy provisions to be in accordance with the CWD.
* Duty travel acceptable in Group aircraft before being required to book with other carriers.
* First class duty travel requirements remain unchanged.
* AIPA's staff travel claims rejected - staff travel remains as is.
* Little change to the currnet obligations for consultation between AIPA and the Company.

Ouch! QANTAS has seriously missed in their strategic planning! They have been measured, they have been weighed and the judges (the REAL smartest guys in the room) have found them wanting! Oh! What a web we do weave , when we first practise to deceive!:ok:

I actually think you will find that junior PPL holders who dont get much if any otime will now bid for a BL and get a pay rise. Does a present FO who is permanent today who becomes a rotating Captain therfore keep his status of element 3A on a blank line. My reading is yes. Its a dogs breakfast and i think will cost QF big money. Couldnt happen to a nicer bunch of pr*ks. Redundancy notification reduced i think to 3 months and no more city transport. Not much to worry about i think.

No scope clause is the biggest win for the company. It is a big one at that.

And AJ paid how much to avoid negotiating one? 100 million+? Because he apparently thought the PIA would be ordered to cease within a few hours instead of 2 days? It will take a many years of 'savings' of not having a scope clause to make up for the cost of the grounding and threatended lock out. The folly of it all.

Snafu
 

I view the "no scope" as more of a "non-loss" for QF; AIPA has never had a scope clause so it was theirs to win if possible, but alas....

Qantas has gone to extraordinary lengths over the years to resist even commonsense and 'future-proof' pilot undertakings tied to other start-up companies. Just ask anyone who was on AIPA's committee when James Strong was CEO and S/H (ie 737 pilots) were facing comparisons with the new airline, Virgin Blue. A type of scope was proposed, which would tie AIPA's 737 pay rates to that of any future competitor.... AS LONG AS QF pilots got the future QF-tailed flying. Qantas declined. :rolleyes: It matters that much to them. Jetconnect followed within a few years.

I don't know the answer, but I'm still nonplussed by the incredible closed-mindedness; pilots are not their enemy!

Not so sure about a strategic loss: Qantas shutdown: CEO Alan Joyce's statement in full - Flights | hotels | frequent flyer | business class - Australian Business Traveller

All in all, no real significant change. Well done AIPA negotiators.

Oh, I guess there is one small change, Qantas is now $200mill lighter in the pocket due to the Irish lunatics small man tantrum, well done Alan! :ugh:

I'm sure the cost for your poor judgement will be deducted from your bonus. :{

As I said a couple of days ago, no real surprises, in fact I am slightly surprised there were not more CAO48 exemptions, just a few fiddly ones. In general it keeps the status quo, although seems a tad expensive for QF management to basically not change anything, oh well they have been financially inept for quite a few years anyway, nothing changes...

For mine the only real win out of this for management is the certainty to go ahead and implement whatever their plans are from this point forward in the knowledge that the LHPs can't engage in industrial action for at least the next two years.

The pay freeze is equivalent to about 6 months - the 4.5% being payable from Jan 2012. (EBA7v expired December 2010).

FWC has basically said to both parties - go away and talk again before December 2014 and try and get your s:mad:t together.

They have avoided any real nasties as it seems unlikely they wanted to really touch FTLs etc. - perhaps because they were worried about imposing fatiguing requirements on pilots and any subsequent coronial inquest pointing the finger.

Therefore, the question that must be asked by shareholders (yoo hoo you lot - time to wake up), is whether this determination was worth its publically declared $200 million plus cost.

The following paragraph, although somewhat lengthy, sums up the conservative approach taken by FWC in their determination and provides context for their expectations of both parties as they approach negotiations in about 18 months.

Dreamin
 

What? A victory for the pilots? Hardly. Anyone remember why we wore the red ties? Not to get this. We could have negotiated better than this. This total repudiation of AIPA is a further step towards LH irrelevance and a victory as JW says for the QF strategy.

PS. And anyone who thinks element 3A will be transferable and still be here in five years is dreamin!:zzz:

Winner, winner chicken dinner!
 

Considering the cost of the tantrum to try and get their own way, only to be told to grow up, sit down and sort it in good faith, I for one, think there is major egg on their collective faces. I would call that a win.:D

Very important direction taken by FWA here - and one workers in most industries can be relieved about.

If FWA had accepted much of Qantas' argument, there would have been a wholesale change in industrial tactics from managements in many companies. Don't even bother to negotiate, FWA will be prepared to make changes for us.

Fortunately FWA have sent the message that they will make small changes to streamline things, but won't make large fundamental changes to contracts. They'll simply give them a contract to work with until they can negotiate another one.

Well done FWA - a logical, calm decision that will discourage the dreadful tactics used by Joyce from being used again in other industries.

Federal election due later this year. Wonder how long the FWC will last under a Federal Coalition government? Could well be a VERY different bargaining environment next time around (only around 18 months away)!

This ruling confirms my private belief that FWA would not touch FTL's as they are far out of their area of expertise. The FRMS ruling has the same effect.

The message from FWA, as others have stated is clear, don't go down this route expecting far reaching changes. Sort it out yourselves.

Qantas management achieved it's aim of stopping the "slow burn". They must count that against the ongoing cost of the shutdown and lockout in terms of public cynicism and employee disengagement.

In the short term it is probably a win but, typical of that short-termism we see that it leaves them with no wiggle room for the looming next negotiation. By their actions they have cemented into the public consciousness that a threat of industrial action at Qantas means a shutdown. The Qantas unions would have taken note.

Going to FWA holds no terrors for the unions now; the judgements given are blancmange and fall remarkably short of the industrial Armageddon that was feared.

To my mind the message for Qantas is, you probably won this battle but the war will go on unless you learn to value your employees.