Slight thread drift, but regarding the Network F100 FO spots advertised on AFAP, why the need to hold an ATPL to be an FO???

So one day they can be a Captain......

And also a means of culling the mob if there are too many panting to get a job. In another era at Ansett, you could get a job as F/O DC3, F27 etc with a bare commercial licence and no instrument rating. Because of the seniority system and bugger-all movement up the line, there was little incentive to study for the SCPL theory exams, now called ATPL exams. When command slots came up suddenly there were all these CPL 8,000 hour first officers who could not be bothered to do the exams and were perfectly content to stay as permanent copilots on good money and protected by seniority.

Ansett for example had to nip this in the bud and I believe gave CPL first officers two years to pass the SCPL theory exams or get the boot. Might even have been less than two years. Some SCPL candidates failed the exams continually and left the airline.

After that, the trend was the airlines required all theory exams to have been passed before joining the airline. Similar to present day. All the above from memory which can be unreliable at times.

I get all of that, but under wonderful CASA's new system making it cost prohibitive to get an actual ATPL, even if you have all of your ATPL subject passes it seems you're unemployable by an airline in Australia.

Simple method of culling pilot applications, and saving on flight tests in the future. My guess would be in a few years time when FO applicants with an ATPL dry up the requirement will be lifted. Sort of like when you see a job requiring time already on type, if there is no one qualified, or the pay isn't good enough then the requirement will be relaxed.

No Need to go Overseas
 

50 Cadets at QF, 90 to Network, JQ employing, QF expanding, etc.


Here we go boys! Funny how the industry works. Middle East suffering and China about to die. Australia expanding.


God help the clowns going overseas. They must'nt read the posts on pprune too well. Sham we cant access the EK, CX, CS, CE, etc forums to read just how bad it is.

VA opening the gates before mid-year too.

It's the back of a long queue though.

It's true QLink are desperate!

Did an interview about 5 years ago, was told to re-apply in 6 months. Never did.

6 years later, they email me asking to update my application and want me to pay for a psychometric test. :=

No thanks Qlink! You had your chance :cool:

:ugh:

They are about to become a whole lot more desperate. A bunch of Captains about to resign, and they reward there remaining crew by driving them harder, 10 hour 6 sector shifts, double O/N's etc. OH!, and they act surprised when even more leave this paradise!Even some FO's are giving it the rear end treatment because its becoming unsustainable. Be careful what you wish for potential applicants.

SN

Frathouse:---- what private CX forum? Just read Fragrant Harbour and you'll see all you need to see...

Are a bunch of South African captains still coming over on a 12 month contract? If so, how do the existing FOs feel about it?

They can get their ATPL on a turboprop.

I've seen this done for Captains, but FOs? My experience is that suitable FOs get upgraded, others don't, some of them don't understand/accept that they aren't suitable. To be fair, some flight ops teams aren't very good at explaining why someone isn't getting an upgrade and what they can do to improve.

SN, south of the boarder 10hr duties are fairly common on day 1 of an O/N, but we don't see 6 sector days. No talk of more Eastern crew jumping ship just yet.

FTS, we now have a command assessment process, so for whoever has been screened and is in the pool (and i'd imagine over 2/3 F/O ranks are eligible) bypass pay will be up for grabs as soon as they start adding DEC to the bottom of seniority, assuming they get added of course.

Well I hope QLink don't go down the 457 avenue, they did that with the ATR and the 457 guys have done nothing but cause headaches, skill level of 457 is very concerning.

In what possible way could Qlink use 457 Captains? How could they prove the necessity of this to the authorities while most of the FOs are upgradeable?

The 457 Visa DE captains is nonsense. It's a false rumour, plain and simple. Spoke to a recruiter who went to S.A. and he said they never at any stage were looking for DE captains.

You're wasting your time banging your heads against the wall about this issue when it simply isn't true.

On another issue, definition of Exodus: 'mass departure of people'

Let's assume mass departure = 1/4 of pilots, does that sound fair? I'll eat my hat, wings, bars and tie if 125 pilots QL pilots go to EK.
Whoever started this thread should get a job at a newscorp paper, the sensationalism is top notch!

Bear in mind that this thread was created just over three years ago.

IIRC, some crew left but there wasn't an "exodus" then.

Today, well, our "management" aren't predicting another 2007/2008 when we lost 40% of our pilots. But...

Last year: 40 FO's to Cathay, a few leaving due to the base closures, and a couple of Captains leaving for Virgin.

This year: 4 pilots already left for EK. 2 more to EFA and elsewhere. 50 Qantas cadets to leave over the next 12 months or so, plus LOI holders. Rumoured up to 20 FO's waiting for Cathay start dates, rumoured at least seven more Captains waiting EK start dates. Rumoured around 60 Sunstate pilots applying for EK right now.

A lot of rumours there, but I wouldn't be writing off 125 pilots leaving within 12 months just yet.

DIVOSH!

Have the powers that be figured out how they are doing this yet? Would taking the most senior cadets be possible (as they would be captains/C&Ts now?) or will they take people from across the board to try and balance things?

Heston,

Yes, QLink can do the ATPL flight test. It's done during the command upgrade process.

About 500-550 pilots at the moment.

Within 3 years? highly unlikely.

Wages always reflect rank and total years of service.

As far as anyone knows, they're still working that out. They appear to be getting closer to a solution and a process, according to the latest phone info session from last week.

What I have heard (another rumour of course) is that ALL eligible cadets will be given mainline seniority numbers (based on previous seniority) before any are placed into mainline. So a senior Qlink Captain placed into mainline in December this year wouldn't be junior to a junior Qlink FO placed into mainline in August. Again, another rumour, but seems to be a fair system to me (I'm not a cadet).

hestonfysh to clarify Going Nowhere if I may...

If you join with minimum hours it is extremely unlikely you'd be a Captain in three years. If you joined with 1900 hours and an ATPL it would be unlikely but certainly possible that you could be a Captain within three years.

Once you're a Captain, then the 55% rate isn't applicable. You'd be paid as a "x-year" Captain on the relevant EBA scale.

DIVOSH!

Seems like a very sensible solution to keep all parties happy, which makes the rumour seem unlikely :E

Thanks for the info Di_Vosh!

I wouldn't count on that many Sunstate guys and girls wanting to go to EK. A lot came to Sunstate for the lifestyle, and even though that has all but gone they definitely don't see living in Dubai as an improvement.

Unless they're keeping it quiet I couldn't even think of 10 people who'd want to go.

Same Fonz,

60 would be close to 25% of the list. Given the top 50 odd are 'lifers', I don't see how 60 others would be interested.

Dubai ain't for everybody

Fonz there is 9 guys in Cairns alone that are going.

Can I take their job in Cairns.....please?

Me too

halas

DEC's won't happen, theres been the odd one or two here and there over the years but no mass recruitment, they might threaten it but won't do it. They would at least have to go through he CRP as do the current FO applicants. Theres also still quite a bit of experience in the FO ranks, even after you take out the cadets, if they actually go.

SN

You can have my LHS 777 for your Dash in BNE :)

You'll get crotch rot in Cairns :=

Sorry.........:cool:

You'll get scrote rot in Cairns (is that better?) :=

Cairns is a great place. Reef, rainforest, short drive to work, great ATC, friendly locals and good amenities. Yeah gets a little hot at times and no surf but hey.........???
Oh, and a good sexual health clinic to fix your crotch rot Porter at North Cairns community health. All free even if you don't have a Medicare card.
Craven

Craven........you don't get crotch (scrote) rot from rooting :ugh:

Porter I have it on good authority that they treat lots of Crotch rot and can recommend Myconazol as the best stuff to use

I think I'll just scratch it :E

I think this scenario is highly unlikely. Reserved mainline seniority numbers for guys not yet employed in mainline was tried before (LOA161) and led to a lot of anguish. The policy was eventually thrown out a few EBA's ago. There is very little appetite amongst the company or AIPA to go down that path again.

Expect your seniority number to be directly linked to your start date.

If QF and QL can agree to release the cadets in their previous order then that would be one way of controlling their resultant seniority numbers. I don't see any other way allowed for in the EBA.

The simple solution is to take them in the order that they were awarded the cadetship in the first place, no one will want to hang around Qlink after it starts anyway. Qlink have to man up and realise that crew turnover and training a part of being in this industry and the fact is, after 10 or so years, most are ready to move on. Opportunities abound worldwide for the willing and I don't see that changing any time soon.

SN

I disagree. It's happened previously without any issues. If you look at the start dates for seniority numbers from about 785- 825 you'll find a whole host of different start dates. The seniority numbers were blocked out for Regional pilots as part of a settlemeant for a course case they'd brought against Auatralian Airlines. I think they started in seniority order from the regionals but when they started was up to the regional and when they could be released.

Similarly, there are 4 seniority numbers from 740-780 that have start dates out of sequence. These were ex cadets who were not released by their employers when Qantas came calling. In each case Qabtas honoured the provision that said seniority was on graduation order.

The same rule can apply here. Course graduation order of cadets and then order within courses can see those numbers blocked aside now. If the reason they don't start is because the Qantas owned regional tells mainline that they'll struggle for trainers, or whatever if they do then I have no problems blocking that number for them when they do start.

In fact, I can't think why it would be an issue at all? Qantas has essentially said we'll take you and this is your start date but it's more important for the group if you stick in your current role for another few months.

And....
 

The QF A330 fleet has, I believe, numerous S/Os who were nominally brought in on a Friday for a "start date" and then joined additional A380/747 recruits on the Monday for the remainder of the induction process. They are senior to the Monday joiners forever, and the step was supposedly taken to get the "right candidate" on the right fleets without them being perpetually on the bottom of the seniority list after they lost the "day one lottery".
That's the rumour anyway...:E