3 x major Virgin annoucements today
 

1 - SQ invests A$105 million to become a shareholder.
2 - Virgin acquires Skywest
3 - Virgin buys 60% of Tiger Australia

Big news day!

one less domestic competitor i guess

Virgin buys stake in Tiger
 

Tiger announces Virgin partnership - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Any truth to the rumour that a 'MOU' is being drafted as we speak regarding the use of Virgin crews transfering over to Tiger to help with the rapid expansion plans?

Simply put....NO.
Tiger has plenty of people lined up to cope with any expansion. Most of the Captains looking at going to Tiger would have more experience than the people in Virgin.

So the domestic market will go back to 50/50 or so like the old TAA/ ANSETT days. In my opinion the only hope for Qantas would be for the board/Joyce to fold Jetstar back into Qantas with red tails and offer one common standard thru the airline for the customers. Do i think they will do it. No.

ASX Release on SkyWest (http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/2012103...c9rtrt52qc.pdf)

Seems the Virgin Cadetship through SkyWest is even more guaranteed to land you a Virgin job now, haha

Hi Higs

Thats not what I have heard, apparently discussions have already taken place regarding the many very experienced airbus pilots within the Virgin ranks and Tiger are keen to tap into this pool to help with the expansion.

There have also been discussions with the cadet training providers at Virgin/Skywest for a massive increase in the number of cadets that will now also be used in Tiger on the A320 :eek:

Very smart move
 

I reckon this is a very clever move by Virgin.
They can now compete with the " Rat " on every level.
The full service part will be quite popular with many and still leave plenty of the LCC part to Tiger which will satisfy many travellers as well.
This is all good for Virgin and the travelling Public.
I bet QF rue the day John Borghetti left them and joined Virgin.
It's good to see some proper competition on all levels.
:ok::ok::ok:

Back to the Two Airline Policy. I'll bet AJ has turned purple with rage!

A lot of people will be jockying for position regarding who gets commands and where.

Interesting times ahead- I'm sure there are 1 or 2 other announcements in the pipeline as well.

These transactions are breathtaking in their simplicity and impact on the strength of DJ going forward. Singapore must be smiling at the idiots across the road who had the audacity to start a fight with no ammunition and who now learn that there is a very serious player in town behind their discarded Exec.

DJ now have a structure to target both mainline and crapstar at the same time, albeit with only limited metal at this stage. Can anyone else see more coming over the horizon???

As the plan was named Game On and congratulations to all involved in showing how to run a company in the aviation business.

Do these super experienced TT drivers understand what a LSALT is?

Will there be any change in branding for Tiger?

Tiger brand will be licensed to operate under its current arrangement for 20 years.
So, no change there.

FFS! :ugh:

good move by by JB, not entirely original of course, I just hope both parties VA management and staff have watched and learned from the ongoing debacle on the other side of the fence

They do however know how to do a go-around and correctly work out their take-off data.

I hope VIPA and AFAP work quickly and well to sort out any seniority and integration issues. If you're junior in DJ then I'd be phoning today to get them onto it quick smart. Otherwise you may find all the expansion happening in another carrier who will recruit from outside leaving you at the bottom of the pile for a very, very long time.

Then you'll face the absurdity of a dude who has been with Tiger for five minutes getting his command in under a couple of years whilst you've been with DJ for five plus and will be waiting another five plus (or longer) for command.

Hey mods, we've got umpteen threads going on here about this "hot" topic. Time for a merge?

...and how to negotiate a vastly improved EBA!!! :E:E:E

Keg

I don't understand your tone of an apparent sense of entitlement to jobs in another "list" just because your own employer has bought a stake in that company. I doubt many virgin pilots had been seriously considering a move to tiger before today.

All this assumes Virgin pilots will can go/will want to go and if so, on what terms.

I use the word apparent because that just how it seems. Whether you meant it that way, probably not?

Whatever the outcome, I hope it is negotiated to the satisfaction of all pilots in both groups, and doesn't leave future pilots of either party out in the cold.

insert smiley thumbs up here.

Do Virgin have anything like a scope clause in their EBA?

The fool has been caught asleep at the wheel yet again. While he struggles to turn a profit, is obsessed with rogering Engineers, allows his business customers to walk out the door, spends umpteen time in Canberra lobbying the labor incompetents and keeps his nose buried in his bonus calculator VA continue to smack him across the back ahead!!
Oh how I wish I had a crystal ball, would love to see the state of the game in say 5 years?


Game on indeed.

Jay Bee, You've done it agaaaaaaaaain........ :ok:

Skywest up 57.15% at present

Virgin up 9.1% at present

Qantas line ball at present and looking weak with more shares for sale than there are to buy.

Keg. I would be more concerned about your position in the QF group than making suggestions about the actions pilots in other airlines should be making.

Ps. I would expect Virgin to now join the Star Alliance.

waren. Sense of entitlement? Not really. Let me flesh it out a bit more.

There are a bunch of pilots in Tiger today. They deserve first shot at any Tiger promotions as Tiger expands. There are a bunch of pilots not in Tiger today who may be employed as F/Os as Tiger expands over the short to medium term. Let's say that a Tiger pilot employed next month has the opportunity with such rapid expansion to be considered for a command upgrade in two years time. Does not a Virgin pilot who has been employed with DJ 3-4 years ago not deserve the opportunity to at be considered for that promotional spot with Tiger next year prior to the person who is yet to be employed by Tiger?

B772, I remain concerned for my position in the QF group. I simply hope that DJ crew learn from our experiences. You know, share the knowledge? It's a CRM principle. I'm sure you've heard of it. :rolleyes: :ugh:

Yes, so long as the terms under which any such consideration might be given are negotiated and acceptable to both pilots groups prior to that situation occurring.

Still, a lot of water to go under the bridge before anyone gets to that point. Agree though, AIPA/VIPA should be making a list of questions for mgmnt smart like.

Keg.

The QF crew did not learn from the experiences of others and I suspect the now Virgin Group crew will ignore any suggestions made by QF crew.

With the move to 139 aircraft with just over 9,000 employees the Virgin Group will be a thorn in the side for the QF group.

Virgin will only own 60% of Tiger so in reality there are no integration issues.

On the other hand they will own 100% of Skywest so that's where the seniority issues will lie. As a Skywedt employee I can assure you that there'll be 200 odd pilots who will want to sort these issues out ASAP as well. I would encourage the Virgin unions to contact the SALPA Committee.

Yes well done JB.

Meanwhile I met two very influential business owners this morning who told me they have taken all their corporate business away from Qantas as Joyce has ignored their protests at the lack of premium QF services worldwide. All they recieved in response to emails was an automated fob off.

Winning.

It will be very interesting to see which way Virgin goes: integrate the workforce or keep them as penny packets.

The Qantas group seems to have taken the approach of divide as much as possible. From what I can tell, from a pilot employment perspective, there are mainline, Jetstar, Jetstar NZ, Jetstar Asia, Jetstar Japan, Jetstar Pacific, Eastern, Sunstate, Network, and Cobham all operating flights on behalf of the Qantas Group (might have missed a couple of Jetstars, its hard to keep track). There is some ability to move between companies but it is limited and not consistant.

It is my understanding that this is a deliberate strategy to ensure that the workforce is not able to exercise as much power as it would if it were all combined.

Virgin started off with a number of companies: Virgin Blue, Pacific Blue, Polynesian Blue and V Australia but for some time has been working on bringing them back under one company due to the belief that the the overhead of running so many businesses exceeded the benefits. The Skywest set up was a shift away from this but it may be temporary as the ATR operations are already Virgin branded and the Skywest west coast ops will all move under the Virgin brand. Tiger will apparently stay as a separate brand for the forseeable future.

Whilst there are always winners and loosers in the short term when seniority lists get banged together I can't help but think that in the long term there will be more winners in a combined pilot workforce. And more importantly it doesn't have to be at the expense of the company so Virgin can remain profitable whilst doing so.

What I find surprising is that there have been no whispers about any of this in the last few days. So much for a rumour network.:sad:

Well done JB - stirring the pot with a little leprechaun shaped pole right now...

I'm wondering where would this put the new terminal in Perth which has been allocated to skywest and other FIFO operators? F100's to use bridges now in the new pier? Or will they still stay in the existing Terminal WA?

Fun times ahead. :ok:

Angryrat --"This could be your one and only chance to sort out a group seniority that works for all who are now under the Virgin Group. "

So true, but you have a domestic group that just wants to put everyone at the bottom of ""their "" list. Go figure :ugh:

Look at the other side of this deal, a final admission of defeat that SQ just couldn't make a go of it in Australia on their own and needs locals to do it for them ?

Why do people think there is going to be a merging of the crews from the different companies? The guys at Network got a Qantas employee number, but as far as I'm aware they aren't on the seniority list.

Better staff travel could be a maybe for XR or Tiger but I can't see it going much further than that.

If they all merged on start date there would be at least 10 guys from XR that would have the highest seniority in the group.... That'd be a nice jump F100 captain to A330 Captain. Can't see that happening for some reason.

So does this mean that SQ will do all the Virgin long haul and EK does all the Qf long haul? Good for the pax but not too good for oz aviation careers.

The Don.

Angry Rat,

I agree with your idea and think it is the way to go on integration. However, Cruise FO's of which Intake may or may not be, hate the idea. That is because when they joined as cruise FO's they had no possibilty of progression unless they had significant hours to meet minimums for a 777 FO (most of whom did not). For the majority their only chance of progression was/is to resign and start again at VAA. So to use this 'Silo' approach leaves them with little as they do not qualify for their 'protected' 777 FO slots.

So they joined as crfo's without much experience (perhaps without the requirements for domestic), knew there was no progression, and are now not happy that they would have a chance to progress in domestic. Poor fellas:rolleyes:

Mr snuffaluffagus,
No not a CRFO, but " hate the idea" of it not being a even playing field. As for
"protected FO slots" and you could put "protected command slots" on that list are only protected for one group, domestic crew. It's all one way- short haul to long haul but not vice versa (except for CRFO's). Integration is integration, not segregation.

One airline builds its brand,

The other is destroying it.

Respect :ok:

Well, the EBA hasn't been signed yet. Good thing it seems........ Guess we now know why management wanted it sorted as soon as possible.