|
Planes may leave late in new system - Perth
From The West, today...
Originally Posted by Byline Geoff Thomas
Flights out of Perth's congested airport could be delayed up to 45 minutes from their advertised departure times from tomorrow with the introduction of a schedule co-ordination system to prevent long queues of planes waiting to take-off.
According to air traffic control provider AirServices Australia, the slot system is required because Perth Airport's runways cannot handle demand from fly-in, fly-out flights from Tuesday to Thursday between 5.30am and 8.30am. The change will mean passengers will spend more time in departure lounges instead of in planes on the tarmac. Airlines will advise the night before of their timetable and AirServices will advise a slot time for push back depending on forecast weather conditions. Under the system, passengers may find that a 6.30am departure may be delayed up to 45 minutes in a worst case scenario but they should experience no delay once their plane is pushed back from the terminal. To alleviate congestion at Perth, AirServices started delaying the departure of Perth-bound flights from Sydney and also slowed them up across the country. That system will be extended to Melbourne to Perth flights this year. Plane movements at Perth Airport have doubled in 10 years and are expected to reach 139,000 this year - years ahead of forecast. At the current rate, the airport will reach its runway capacity of more than 200,000 flights in and out a year by 2020, but well before that date will be at maximum capacity during the week. In December the State Government launched a strategy review of WA's aviation sector to ensure policies and infrastructure plans at key airports can meet unprecedented resources-driven growth. At the launch, Transport Minister Troy Buswell said he wanted to ensure that infrastructure was in place to enable, not impede, growth. The review will look at key issues such as a third runway at Perth Airport to ease congestion at peak times, strategies to cut airport noise, relocating the airport in the longer term and regional aviation development. Perth Airport chief executive Brad Geatches said at the launch of the inquiry that it was willing to look at a third runway. |
In the last review only last year Perth airport was adamant that there was no requirement for new runway and they could contain growth in the current setup...............maybe not
|
This could be interesting !!
Wondering how the new "Perth Controlled Departure Times" will mix with "Sydney Controlled Arrival Times" ?
"So sorry.....Your (timetable scheduled) departure time from Perth has been delayed 45 minutes, but on the bright side, we've got a slot for you in Sydney, 15 minutes earlier to your (timetable schedule) arrival time" Warp Speed 2 Scotty ! ST ( Nah, that wouldn't happen, AirServices would be better coordinated then that ??) |
.......and the longer view??
All well and good for the minister to sit down with the parties concerned and discuss future infrastructure. In the mean time though, the airlines are the ones footing the bill for extended delays at the holding point; despite taxiing on time. God only knows the cost (to the airline) of fuel and airframe hours being burnt up every day just over the horizon; out of site out of mind perhaps. Meanwhile, the only "infrastructure" being built at Perth airport is more carparks and a half million dollar smokers hut. The new taxiways are nice and smooth and new looking, but they missed the opportunity to build high speed taxiways, instead opting for the standard option that provides no tangible increase in movements.
Perth airport is already a laughing stock and getting worse! Nationalise the lot I say, private enterprise has proven itself to be useless. :ugh: |
Folks,
I would love to know why the "capacity" is quoted as 200,000 per. year?? How about differential pricing to iron out the peaks, and a few strategically place high speed exits to up the traffic rate exiting after landing. Compared to many European or US airports, runway utilization is generally low in AU, and with limits in a place like Sydney of 80 per hour, with three runways, there is no incentive to get smarter. For a runway used for arrivals and departures, 35 per hour shouldn't be too much of a stretch, higher is possible, but it requires a level of cooperation and flexibility between pilots and ATC that is a stranger to Australia, and Australian "rules". Tootle pip!! |
The amount of work airlines need to do for this new system is quite ridiculous.
I personally don't understand why the current slot time system couldn't be continued? The spreadsheet, web system and then notification to crew of the actual time provided seems like a lot of work compared to just radioing for a slot time on the ground. Guess we will all see how well this works. |
Nationalise the lot I say, private enterprise has proven itself to be useless. The average citizen doesn't fly often enough for the government to warrant expenditure on aviation infrastructure. Our landing fees will be used to pay for roads, schools or whatever the electorate is complaining about. |
HKF???
b. |
What do they mean by "may", everyone already is delayed... actually 45 minutes may be an improvement for some.
|
Look on the bright side.
Airport coffee shops and souvenir shops will win. You will have time to buy a newspaper, order a coffee from the galley, scratch your b@lls, program the FMS, brief properly, chat to the cute new FA, get minor maintenance attended to before you launch... Or am I dreaming? |
I would like to see a line up next to the passenger screening where all the pilots line up to get there tickets... then over the loud speaker "Number A36 we are ready for you now to taxi"... the challenge would then be put out for the crews to come up with the most imaginative celebration dance like they seppo's do in their football.... :ok:
Imagine the conversations that would happen in a waiting room full of pilots... probably something along the lines of "...... this big" |
Oh this is going to work well.
Miner A rocks up at 0600 for his 0700 departure to be then told he is leaving at 0745, so then he goes for a wonder. Boarding call is made at 0715 and no where to be found is miner A..... Going to be plenty of more delays. Brilliant idea......:ugh: |
COBT
So how did events at PH unfold this morning? As expected?
|
From what I hear it's still boarding on schedule. You will just be sitting in the aircraft waiting at the gate instead of on the taxiway.
|
I completely disagree that PH is in the 10 worst airports in the world, it's definitely the 2nd best airport in the world........... ;)
Leadsled is right, the so called " capacity " of Perth airport is a bad joke promulgated by public servants and ridiculously restrictive rules. Why was LAHSO stopped ? Why are there no rapid exits ? Why are there never departures off 24, is it because of the joke of a taxiway system ? ( how long did it take to get taxiway V ? ) 20 min holding in CAVOK and when you finally arrive in the circuit it's a friggin ghost town, the list goes on and on. |
Spot on HKF, several weeks ago, clearance received for departure off RWY24 due works in progress RWY21. On requesting push approval, change of RWY, 21 now operational. Requested 24 being a lazy type, advised that it was "No longer available due noise abatement procedures ".
Ok if It was 0300,however,this was 1230 local on a saturday arvo! On a similar vane,why is it that most Countries I've visited over the years, given critical infrastructure requirements, work carries on 24/7. In good old Oz it's 9 to 5 Mon to Fri apparently. Laughable Joke, Lucky Country means lucky nobody is held accountable. |
Now if I recall correctly in the USA there are fines for airlines who keep self loading cargo on the ground on board over a certain period. Perhaps if these fines applied to airport operators who kept aircraft holding for too long they'd be building multiple runways as fast as they could, after all they and the government are the only ones making money out of aviation these days.
|
Code:
From what I hear it's still boarding on schedule. You will just be sitting in the aircraft waiting at the gate instead of on the taxiwayNone of this is news to anyone who is a regular user. As regular domestic SLF, the days are rare when you board on time, pushback immediately when fully boarded, and taxi to a short hold before takeoff. Maybe the early Friday morning flight home. Otherwise, you are always sitting.... somewhere....waits of up to 45 minutes are not uncommon. The only downside to a Kindle as reading matter:hmm: |
I just got off the phone to my mate in Perth. He said that there was a few delays today between 15-30 mins. Our best mate GT was not far off the 45min mark.
|
The new system is called Metron, it is much better then the current CTMS. I have had a brief overview of it.
Metron Aviation: Concept Engineering, Advanced Research, Air Traffic Flow Management, Collaborative Decision Making |
|
Another pathetic attempt to avoid building a new 'turbo-prop' runway.
|
What a complete and utter load of crap !! Another tiny band aid being applied to the massive, infected, pus riddled sore AKA Perth airport.
The runway that affects most residents, noise wise, would have to be RW21, coincidentally the runway that seems to be used the most. How many t/props use D intersection ? A handful of Skywest F50s. If anyone needed any more convincing what a bunch of morons WAC and AA are then surely this is the crowning turd in the water pipe . |
Yet another cluster this morning. We called taxi on time and had nine aircraft in front of us. So where was the bottle neck? Not being launched quick enough. Why? Only one runway, being 21, in use. Wind was NE with 4-5 knots downwind! Why not use 03/06 combination which would A be the best runway for aircraft to actually use (you know, the resaon the airport is there) and B it would have given ATC more capacity to launch.
Third world by design. |
Icarus2000 and HKF, Perth RWY priority due noise abatement is 21 and/or 24, then 03 then 06, arrivals and departures. On a dry RWY with 5 knots or less downwind, those are the runways that MUST be used. ATC has no say in the matter. The rules have to be obeyed, they don't have to make sense.
|
Taxied yesterday at 3.15 to join about 15 other aircraft holding for 21. A light aircraft was holding overhead the tower and nothing moved for quite some time. can anyone tell me what was going on?
|
The "new" metron system is a system designed by people who think we have busy airports here in Australia whereas in actual fact the airports are quite quiet. Is Sydney flow control in contact with Perth flow? Is Brisbane talking to Sydney? They talk about controlled push back times but the real issue here is the airborne time not push back. To slot you in to an arrival space at an airport air traffic control need to control your airborne time. Off chocks time has nothing to do with it! What if you get caught behind an aircraft that then delays your airborne time? Why not follow countries that ARE actually busy and implement their system and learn from their experience? Another example where Australia thinks it is a world leader but in fact lags behind considerably. Very frustrating indeed!! :ugh:
|
Nautilus, I don't doubt your word but that just reinforces how ridiculous and nonsensical Perth airport is. A quick look at google maps will show that there is far more housing under 21/24 flight paths than 03/06 so which politician lives under the 03/06 flight path ???
Also, why the hell do they bother printing departure procedures for 24 when they are never used ? Why have 6 A/C lined up on whiskey when 2-3 of those could be filed across to 24 instead of doing FA while waiting for wake seperation or worse, trg A/c doing an ILS, dont start me on that one . Dodge, spot on, they ( the powers that be ? ) are convinced it is a busy airport, when I hear things like " we have reached capacity " it makes me :yuk: Sure, with the BS use of RWs and ridiculous 10 mile seperation, they may well have " reached capacity " , so are they just going to keep screwing over the customer ( us ) or are they going to do something about it ? Hang on, stupid question, it is Perth after all. |
Why not follow countries that ARE actually busy and implement their system and learn from their experience? Founded in 1995, Metron Aviation pioneered the advancement of air traffic flow management (ATFM), working with the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) to develop the industry’s first collaborative decision making (CDM) platform for optimizing system-wide traffic flow. Metron Aviation provides concept engineering, advanced research, software development, traffic flow management, surface operations management, airspace design and environmental research and analysis solutions to the global aviation industry. Metron Aviation fuses advanced science and mathematics with unparalleled subject-matter expertise to turn groundbreaking air traffic management (ATM) research concepts into next-generation operational capabilities. Recently, Metron Aviation was the recipient of the largest small business award in FAA history, System Engineering 2020 (SE-2020). Additionally, South Africa’s air traffic and navigation services (ATNS) began live operations with Metron Aviation’s ATFM solution this year, while Airservices Australia is in the process of deploying the ATFM solution to support its long-term gate-to-gate CDM vision. As far as I can tell the noise abatement priorities are weighted towards arrivals rather than departures. If you think about it, 21/24 flight paths are almost the same as 03/06, e.g. a 21 departure is a 03 arrival. The ten miles trail comes form required spacing for landing. At about 30-40 miles out if you are less than 10 miles behind and the same speed, the runway won't be clear when you need a landing clearance. You can't be slower than preceding traffic because you run out of slower speeds for each successive arrival. (I gather that in the US the RWY does not need to be clear for a landing clearance to be issued, but rules like that are out of ATC hands in Aus). Remember, for an arrivals sequence, the further apart I need to spread you out the more work I have to do. Likewise the more a/c we can land per hour, the less work I have to do, so I can assure you it's not laziness. For departures the bottleneck is not the runways but the airspace out to about 50nm. We've done this to death in various other threads, but remember when your wheels leave the ground you aircraft becomes 3nm wide and 3nm long. When you call ML centre at about 10nm out, you become it becomes 5nm. Personally I think the next thing to do is 'sequence' the departures. If aircraft are being delayed on the ground anyway, why not put then in the most efficient order? Rather than say 5 turbos nose to tail to the NE then 6 jets one after another to the north (146's and F100's in front of B737's as often as not). |
Thanks for the explanation Nautilus, I personally think most of the ATC people do the best they can but it's a crap system with, obviously, too much seperation and it's only going to get worse as traffic continues to increase. Other airports around the world handle far more traffic with 2 runways with their own unique problems as well eg terrain, airspace etc.
Something other than WAC and/or AA sticking their heads in the sand and saying we've reached capacity, needs to be done. BTW, I think noise wise nothing competes with a droning, climbing at 160IAS turboprop. |
The ten miles trail comes form required spacing for landing. At about 30-40 miles out if you are less than 10 miles behind and the same speed, the runway won't be clear when you need a landing clearance. A lot of things may have been "done to death" but air traffic control in this country continues to be inefficient and amongst the worst I have experienced anywhere in the world year in year out. Despite the whatever we hear from ASA the "emperor continues to be naked". Nothing personal towards anyone, just a cold hard fact.:ugh: |
Seriously? How many minutes apart do you think 10 miles represents at 30 miles? 2 - 2.5 minutes is the correct answer. The actual distance is immaterial (aside from maintaining a radar standard), it's how much time it represents that counts because that's the time spacing onto the runway.
How long does it take you from crossing the fence to vacating the runway? What about when there aren't adequate high speed exits? I do arrivals into ML & if I hand off a domestic behind an International heavy with much less than 12 miles there won't be 5 miles on final without intervention. |
Talking about delays and sorry for the slight thread drift but - The almost fanatical accent on `on-time` push backs invariably results in rushed cockpit checks which is not exactly conducive to the principles of flight safety.
Media published `on-time` figures may impress the self loading suits and bogans, but they don't see the hidden risks involved. Too many times the captain is forced to defend his actions to management if delays occur with management taking the view of the captain is guilty unless later proved innocent. Then the witch-hunt starts. Everyone involved in the rush for on-time departure is eager to deflect blame back to the captain. I for one would regard the airline with the best `on-time` record as one to be careful about flying with. What vital checks have been missed in the rush... |
Everyone involved in the rush for on-time departure is eager to deflect blame back to the captain. I for one would regard the airline with the best `on-time` record as one to be careful about flying with. What vital checks have been missed in the rush... Virgin is 2nd worst Jetstar is the best. and back when tiger had a 50% on time just before they were grounded, they were the most thorough.. obviously. Good OTP is possible if everything is going to according to plan. If it's not going the plan I'd like to know which company would punish the pilot for not departing on schedule. |
Hoofharted - do you mean 5 nm at the threshold, or top of descent, genuinely curious?
|
At about 30-40 miles out if you are less than 10 miles behind and the same speed I'm sorry but every international airport that I have flown to/from outside good OL Aus (and there has been a few) requires a 5 mile separation between landing aircraft and the runway is always bloody well clear every time. Yet we require 10? Be nice if someone had the balls to make all pilots fly a standard decel profile... Now that would be an ACE idea... |
" airlines with the best OTP are the ones to be weary of ".....now I've heard everything.
Nautilus, 5nm from in excess of 100nm out, HK is one example. Bloggsy, yes you hit the nail on the head, all pilots maintaining the same speeds, if you can't maintain 250IAS til 15 miles ( all things, weather/turbulence etc being equal ) then you really shouldn't be in charge or 2IC of an aircraft. (ok, unless your airframe is not capable of that) In the US there are speed requirements which if not met will mean you go to the back of the queue, as it should be. Like Hoof said, it's a turd and it can't be polished, changes need to be made. |
I'm certainly not saying the whole system isn't broken, just trying to explain my little bit of it :)
5nm from in excess of 100nm out, HK is one example - is that for unrestricted descent or step descent on top of preceding traffic? - what speed control if any? - is that straight in or onto downwind? - what typically is the time from latest possible landing clearance to clear of runway? PS re profiles, speed is only half the issue, alt is the other. For example, a domestic 737 10-12 miles behind an international A330 can easily be 10,000' higher. In practice you need considerable difference in IAS to match ground speeds. |
Nautilus :
Generally speed control only, usually 250IAS to begin with 230IAS by 30nm and then 210IAS 15-20nm, of course if a local (or other) airline decided they wanted to do their own thing then all bets were off. Usually straight in or a wide base. Med behind heavy, min 5 miles on final, med behind med could be down to 3nm but yes they do have high speed exits, mind you once again evryones idea of hi speed seemed to vary somewhat, down to around 10-15kts . 5nm from 100nm. If you want lots of early speed control, step descents with multiple level assignement, and some vectors thrown in. Which sounds useless As useless as holding for 10-20 mins ? or as useless as slowing down to min clean speed at 400nm out ?? both of which happen in Perth more than 50% of the time. |
OK, something doesn't compute. I know that if I have a heavy in front of a medium, 5 miles apart at 100nm, both descending at 250 kts, they will not still be 5 nm apart at 40nm let alone on final. The same way two like types will open up on climb out, even two like types will close on descent. How do the HK controllers stop the distance from closing up?
|
| All times are GMT. The time now is 17:45. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.