Pilot sues Virgin
 

It would appear that a rather senior F/O has decided to sue Virgin, because his Nav Bag is to heavy and he has done his back in. He said he should have been given a small computer on which to store his manuals. I must say I am speechless, though I have sympathy for anyone with a bad back, but we have all been lugging around Nav Bags since day one, and whilst I have heard whinging about it, lots of whinging, suing the company was not on the radar. It will be interesting to see how far he gets. (He wants over a million). Perhaps you should all jump on this cash cow if he is successful.:confused:

Often it takes some sort of action such as this to make the power's that be listen, as opposed to just saying "no" and forgetting about the issue. :{ :ugh:

Obviously isn't that keen on a command then.

Shouldnt be speechless. Had the same happen to me. Had surgery over three years ago, and now on various permanent use of pain meds - loss of medical and a career of over 20 years. After all this time I am still not able to work full time and my employment options are extremely limited.
In my safety report to management I stated that carrying jepps in the nav bag was an issue (with various other items mine was over 15kg's) and why couldnt they be supplied to both pilots on the flight deck as in my last airline in Europe. Their answer was it was extremely unlikely to happen again.

That's why they invented Nav bags with wheels. As a training captain I used to carry twice the crap I did as a line captain without any problem at all.

All this was done with 2 titanium plates and 8 screws holding my back together. I certainly know all about serious back injury and pain.

With the issue of iPads this all should be a thing of the past anyway.

He will be bloody lucky to be able to link the bad back directly to the carrying of a nav bag, I'd think.

Being charitable, it's possible, but to establish it as a work-related cause that the company should pay for is a bit of a stretch.

Realistically though, how hard is it to carry a nav bag? Sounds suss to me.

Good luck to him. Australia wake up and look at the rest of the world.

One of the reasons QF went from individual Jepp charts for 737 pilots to aircraft manuals was due to the potential injury risk of guys and gals moving bags in/out of the flight deck. Carrying them wasn't the issue, manoeuvring them in confined places was. There were a number of crews who had injuries- albeit none as serious as this one it appears- and thats why they made the change.

News article says he was injured on Dec 29 2009 and claimed he should have had an iPad instead.

iPad was first released April 2010. Doh!!!

Seriously!the people claiming a bad back due carrying Jepps what's next?

Chicko- Coffee in half cups to avoid too much strain, oh, and it can't be too hot either otherwise you may burn your tongue.

Seriously, carrying a heavy bag on one side over time , without a countering weight in the other hand can put a lot of lateral strain on your back.
It's not the weight, it's knowing how to lift, and I did furniture removals casually for 15 years- some pieces well over 100kg with 2 guys. Harden up!

Perhaps those Kangaroo Court Lawyers here can explain to me what this pilot should do for a career having not flown since 2009.

Perhaps those concerned about his potential Command in Virgin Australia can tell me what he should be doing when the daily chores are limiting.

Perhaps those that have lifted all manner of weights can tell me what they would do if they incurred an injury at work and their career, lifestyle and future were put on permanent hold.

Perhaps those who critise the specific Court action on the basis of what is written in a newspaper should have a very firm reality check!

Don't hold back if you have the FACTS but I find it pretty low to consign a pilots career and future to attitudes of "harden up" and "sounds suss"

PPRune at its best!

Is it only in Australia that pilots are required to carry their own Jepps. around with them? The electronic age is taking over but throughout my career the Jepps. were on board the aircraft, two sets of common use approach plates, one set of the rest, per aircraft, maintained and updated by the Tech Library and frequently changed when the a/c gets back to base. What is so difficult about that?

When I had minor back problems my AME, also a Specialist in Aviation Medicine, said "get wheels", for both cargo bag and nav bag, forget the macho image!

parabellum

There is no requirement for us to carry our own personal set of Jeps.
It has been company policy to issue individual sets to each crew member.

It appears that this policy is about to change albeit somewhat late for some crew.

Wheeled bags are part of the solution but I would hazard a guess some of the posters above you have not been on a 737 let alone tried to wheel their Nav bag into position in the cockpit of a 737.

'Nemo Me Impune Lacessit' is rather appropriate in this situation!

Parabellum, that's fine but just remember "real" Pilots carry Nav bags!;)

Btw, absolutely outrageous claim in my opinion.

ad-astra,


last time I checked I had just under 7000 in B737 so I do know about manoeuvring a nav bag into place.

The B777 is really not much better as was the EMB.

As my personal trainer keeps telling me...."toughen up princess".

As I said - PPRune at its best!

Good career move. </irony>
Princess - Either get a nav bag with wheels and drag it behind you or get a backpack. I used both for years.

I think a few airlines have been sued successfully in the states... I can't remember where I got that info from .... But it's in my head from somewhere.

I can't understand the logic from a cost point of view in making every pilot have a set of personal Jepps.

A good time to bring to your attention what us old pilots suffer. Skin Cancer and bad backs are way up there, (there is no excuse whatsoever for any of you younger blokes getting skin cancer these days, oh and watch that area around the neck/chest when shedding the tie.) The other problem that can come up is varicose veins, as the sitting for long hours with the blood all pooled in the bottom half of your body puts pressure on your veins, the ones in your legs are bad enough but if you get them in your groin, well, what can I say that does not make your eyes water. More sinister problems showed up with the crews especially on the 747SP with a far more than normal rate of brain tumours, both malignant and benign, as well as a reduced fertility rate, this of course was shared by both CC and Tech crew. As I now belong to the retired blokes group we share our "ills" which for countless hours of flying have bequeathed us, so going on that info, I suggest a good sun screen always, plenty of sport and activity on down time, go consult a good chiropractor regarding a cushion to support your spine and never fly without it, get up a least once a hour and stretch hard, keep your weight down, sleep every chance you get, and everything you use should be on wheels, keep your stress levels down (hard in this world) and you will be fitter and healthier blokes than us at retirement.

Keg, I find it interesting that one part of the group have a case for aircraft Jepps but other parts use pilot issued Jepps. I have not been on a 737 flight deck in a while but I would imagine that its about as cosy as a Dash8 flight deck.

The pilot in question's back went out as he attempted to lift his nav bag out of the confined space next to his seat. He now is crippled by the injury and unable to work. It happened while on duty. He is entitled to compensation. Some of you are a heartless lot.

PT6A, in most cases, the pilot pays for his Jepps so it costs the company nothing. If the company provided ships libraries, that would cost the company money and they would have to increase airfares, not be able to remain competetive and have to sell the airline.

rmcdonal, it was a holdover from the short haul/ long haul thing. I think AN used to have pilot issued Jepps domestically too. QF being a long haul airline had aeroplane charts- probably due to the number of charts required to be carried.

Are you guys using aeroplane charts or do you have a personal set?

Personal set, with a company set for PNG Ops. Its the complete set as well not just company specific routes and ports.
There is always the talk of IPads (Probably the same talk in every airline in OZ) but I am as confident in that happening any time soon as I am of Mainline recruiting.

After 13 years at the pointy end, I've yet to pay. In fact I can't think of any airline that makes you pay for such an important tool of the trade.

NAV bags with wheels helps when you are walking around the terminal, but the don't help when you are putting the bag in or taking it out of the flight deck and this is when the injuries are occurring.

As a courtesy to the next pilot: when you leave the flight deck, slide the seat fully forward and also tilt it forward. This makes it easier for the next guy to slide their navbag in beside the seat. :ok:

I am aware that plenty of people have 'done their back' with a navbag over the years. This is the first time that I have heard of anyone claiming compo.

Do operators to FLI and KI still require that pilots load 55-65Kg bags of cray fish in and out of the aircraft whilst bent double?

OHS regs require the employer to forsee, without limitation, all possible health and safety threats to employees and mitigate against them.

This sounds like a threat that was forseeable. Unless they put in place controls to guard against this and the employee ignored them, the Company is liable. That is the law.

I haven't had to carry Jepps for a few years now. Medical problems aside (although certainly acknowledged), I'm not sure how any modern outfit, especially in a state such as Australia, can pass a QA check with a standard industry audit and knowingly have 1000's of manuals updated by thousands of different crew. I can certainly say the number of trip plate errors have been vastly reduced by having a company updated onboard library. Have a look at your company ops manual; Who owns the Jepp manuals? If they are owned by one of the Flight Ops departments, they should update them.
The obvious benefits-

I know your big enough to know how to update a manual by now, but?
Ok, I'm wasting my breath. Bring on the EFB?

Having to lift a 15 kg nav bag onto a shelf is a threat?

That's far from a difficult task for any reasonably fit person, and I dare say if you can pass your Class 1 medical it shouldn't be classed as a threat or problem.

Employers should have to provide a safe workplace, but I think this is the kind of thing that takes OH&S too far. Lifting an item the weight of a nav bag onto a shelf should not be classed as something that requires special procedures or assistance.

Edit: Sorry, I see from posts above he didn't have to lift it onto a shelf, but slide it out from next to his seat. That would require some twisting, I guess, but it's still not something I'd suggest is the company's problem. Any reasonably fit person should be able to do that.

The pilot who is sueing Virgin is 57 years old (sounds like he is about to retire and is trying to get as much money from the company as possible).

Has anyone noticed that the incident occurred in 2009 and the ipad didnt come out until 2010...

One former colleague has lost his career due to a back injury that presented on the flight deck, lifting & twisting his nav bag from it's outboard stowage. Another colleague had significant time off work due to a similar injury.

It's got nothing to do with whether one is fit, or has a Class 1 Medical, and everything to do with ergonomics.

Once again it's wonderful to see Aussie pilots supporting one another, not. :ouch:

Naturally !

It's not about pilots supporting one another or otherwise, just about what's reasonable to claim compensation for (fundamentally, blaming someone else for something that happens to you and getting them to pay).

If it's a clear foreseeable hazard that the company or responsible authority didn't take steps to prevent and someone gets hurt, then OK.

If it's something that would be generally accepted by reasonable people to be within the normal capabilities of a person, then maybe not OK.

Obviously that's the $64,000 question.

My personal opinion is that the incident as described isn't something the company should have to pay for.

This isn't an attack on the bloke in question or a suggestion that companies should be immune from responsibility, but clearly many things can happen to you at work, but not all of them are the company's fault, or indeed anyone's, just bad luck.

you've got it there, it's the leaning over twisting in the cramped space that is the 737 flight deck - do it over time and the risk is actually pretty large. Keg's post on page 1 sums it up. QF had a major oh&s crack down a few years ago and the 737 flight deck in all it's ergonomic glory was a hotspot with the bags. Also the action of reaching back/around (twisting, again.) to grab out the manuals throughout the day was also a contributor. Sounds like virgin is a sitting duck in this one...
so virgin folks, standby for an oh&s 'overview', fasten your cynicism.

pull-up-terrain

So age is now the deciding factor in deciding the worth of a claim. Unbelievable!

Quote:

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Has anyone noticed that the incident occurred in 2009 and the ipad didn't come out until 2010...

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With or without the iPad, Virgin (and by the sounds of it Qantas) were already well aware of the risks associated with the increasing Nav bag weights.
Ships libraries were being discussed well before this incident.
If you wish to base you 'learned decision' on what has been written in a newspaper prior to the case being heard then more fool you.

Capt Claret

Alas very few take a moment to walk in the shoes of another!

Whilst (yes whilst) my original post was tongue in cheek, I have only worked for one company that paid for my Jepps and am yet to work for anyone who has paid for my medical.

You mean all those primary school children forced to lug huge bags on their backs to and from school. Their parents must be idiots. Worse still with high school kids. I feel sorry for them all bending over with these ridiculous loads of books forcing them to crouch when walking instead of walking upright. Interesting case for class action (pun-geddit!)

I know of a captain that while twisting in his seat and reaching up and behind him to locate his headset, buggered his back so painfully that he had to be carried off the aircraft. He was out of action for several weeks despite visits to the medicos and acupuncture treatment.

Maybe he should have sued the airline for making the headsets hard to reach without twisting? Where does it all stop?