Regional Airlines holding back Pilots from progressing to the majors
 

Yep,

You read it here folks.

Confirmed via reliable source. There is now such a shortage of crew in a well known regional airline and they are so **** scared of losing their pilots, they have a gentleman's agreement with a major Australian airline to stage their recruitment from a 'company hold file'.

So in affect if you get the job and are successful in the recruitment process, other Pilots will be given start dates over the top of you because they can't keep their crew.

This is absurd, disgusting, immoral and bordering on illegal.

You can't block someone progressing with their career with better terms and conditions for them and their family because you won't pay them what they are worth.

This industry is a joke.

Shame on you.

AFAP, nail them to the bloody wall and off with their heads!

The last sentence a ripper!
A terse letter would be the extent of it....... signed sincerely of course!

bbbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Now now, a terse letter might be taking things a bit too far.... No, they'll get a frowning of a lifetime; But not too much, lest someone get offended.

Oh hang on, no dispute pilot's are involved....In that case; You'll be lucky to find someone willing to scratch their own @rse.

Tell them to apply to the competition. QantasLink was once a great training ground for Ansett and then Virgin just as Kendell's was a great training ground for Qantas.

Such is the stupidity of these management types that they can't see that their training costs are probably more when they lose someone to the competition instead of giving them a seniority number, paying them well and then letting them progress to the bigger aircraft. :ugh: :rolleyes:

This sort of stupidity has been going on for years. The alternative to Kegs suggestion is to back yourself and resign and essentially become a 'free agent'
Whilst the common thinking is to never resign from a flying job over the years it is these 'free agents' who pickup the good gigs because it appears that noone in aviation seems to plan ahead if you have done an interview then call them up a few weeks later informing them that you have resigned and are ready for 'immediate start' at anytime.

On saying that if a genuine hiring boom occurred all bets are off and the jet operators will be taking who they want when they want.

All very well Nev, but most of us have bills to pay. Resigning without a definite job to go to is ballsy if you have kids/a mortgage. OK if you're 20 I guess.

This wouldn't be the same company that is rumored to be about to advertise for DECs' ?, bet that will throw the cat among the pigeons, what of their seniority list ?, what of the company command requirements.

Lucky there isn't two unions in the one workplace competing for membership,,,,,, oh hang on.................

All true on so many levels. I hope management remain in place long enough to see the final demise so they can take final responsibility for treating professional crew like ****e for so long. Its pleasing to see new operators coming on line with new opportunities and I would say to any pilot to seek out those opportunities where your financial and personal requirements work.
Many of us have taken the jump and now flying F330 across the country and loving it

I take it my Hans Brix video was not appropriate?? "we will be very very angry and write you a letter saying how angry we are"..........

A bit of humor on here sometimes wouldn't hurt, surely.

I appreciate that the issue is a serious one, good luck to those involved.

Also what is an F330??? My old man had a F150 ute once, seen a F350 in the states............

Why don't you name and shame them???

I think the simple solution is to either negotiate with the crew to keep them, or work with them individually on a mutual time frame.

For instance if my employer said, hey mate, we know you're leaving but we will be in the lurch if you leave to quickly. If you can give us another 6 months until we replace you, we will be very grateful and offer you $xxxx as a token of our appreciation. I would be inclined to work with them for being upfront and forthright.

I know for a fact a general aviation operator did just that recently to keep guys from going to the opposition. They all accepted. It was rumored to be in the vicinity of 20k cash up front.

Food for thought?

I know some operators are reluctant to go outside of their EBAs, but remember an EBA is the minimum conditions you can pay someone. There is nothing stopping you from going beyond it in every way for retention.

Unless of course it's the REX EBA. In that case management see the minimum of the current EBA as too much!

That's the way to hang on to 'em. :}

Not the first time
 

There was a gentlemans' agreement between Defence and Qantas to not poach pilots from certain critical roles several years ago. The Minister let it slip when debating pilot retention with a journalist.

They could also do something drastic to solve the problem of un-upgradable FO's, hire from GA!

And that Krusty is why your airline has done a deal with the airlines.

Don't want to pay them more, don't want to treat them right, so let's shaft their chances of leaving by making them too hard to hire.

For instance with this gentlemans agreement in place, do you think the airline will choose to interview your airlines crew? They will take the guys they can get when they need them no strings attached.

Look at the regionals out there right now. Airnorth, skippers, Rex don't have the crew and can't train them as they don't have the crew to train the crew.

I've heard of guys waiting 9 months to finish their training. Very ordinary to say the least.

Companies are starting to treat pilots as their own resource. They are not. But they will remain loyal to you if you treat and pay them fairly.

They may be able to stop you from leaving quickly, but they can't stop you from resigning :ok:

I'd resign.

Love Rumours like this...
 

Let's say there is a mythical australian regional called RexLink, and an Aussie major airline called Virg-Star.

A senior Rexlink manager has a meeting with the CEO of Virg-Star and suggests a "gentlemens agreement" between them as described in this thread.

The CEO of Virg-Star has a think and says "We're an expanding airline. You want me to potentially weaken my expansion by either not employing successful applicants or delaying their employment. Simply because you can't afford to lose them and that it will put your own flight ops under pressure. Is that right?"

As the senior Rexlink manager nods, the Virg-Star CEO says "Why the f*ck should I? What possible advantage will I get from this agreement? Why should I miss out on experienced regional flight crew and employ less qualified people?"

And there endeth the "gentlemens agreement", IMHO.

DIVOSH!

The rumours of such "genlemens agreements" have been around since say, Max was a boy!

Last time around there was frantic correspondence between the REX Chief Pilot and his Jetstar counterpart. Rumor has it they are/were perhaps, mates. The only thing that stopped that little episode from becoming terminal for REX, was the GFC. And of course Jetstar's insane hireing practices!

Di_Vosh is right. These guys might think they have each others back, but at the end of the day they are as ruthless towards each other as they are to their own pilot groups. :rolleyes:

Personally, I think the agreement not to hire each others staff is an urban myth.

I'll believe it when I see evidence.

The first reason, as stated above, is the various airlines are fierce competitors and unlikely to give a break to anyone else.

The second reason is the the Trade Practices Act prohibits uncompetitive behaviour like this. Eg. the prosecution of Qantas for doing a dodgy deal to try and restrict freight competition.

Yet another urban myth.

Di Vosh while you're observations ring true, this info is from the horses mouth.

I wonder what they offered?

No compete clauses on certain routes with Qantaslink?
Feeder times with regional services to supplement domestic Jetstar services?
Money?
To not tie up with VA?
A pet poodle for AJ?
Fluffy handcuffs and a pony for BB?
To help DH lose his virginity?
NH and CH wearing mankinis while tickling AJs feet with feathers in the toaster?

Very interesting times :cool:

Those who have written evidence please send it to the company AFAP rep.

Myth or Not, people are, will, and want to leave Pel-rex! It just means that if such an agreement exists, that airline will miss out on some good guys. There are plenty of other companies that will be looking for good people.

FMC.

DiVosh,

And what if the two CEOs have the same master ?, a "group" thing ?.

I used to think the same thing until a chief pilot of a particular airline told me personally that a chief pilot of a regional airline had rung him in regard to the high number of his pilots being hired from them and could they come to some sort of agreement.

On saying that:

1. Owners of GA/Regional airlines tend to over estimate their pulling power in the major airlines in Australia. I remember one GA owner in QLD who threaten people with their careers at a particular regional airline if they dare left before his nominal time frame.

2. I think that even if there was a gentlemen's agreement in place, if there is large expansion, all bets are off.

The owners of Rex are Singaporean. I'd say with very close ties to the business community and regulatory processes.

Where was the little man trying to setup a premium carrier again?

Smoke and mirrors.

Guys,

I love a conspiracy as much as the next Prune reader, but I don't think this one has legs.

Blueskymine

The only question I'd ask then is that from the "regional" horses mouth or the "airline" horses mouth? The "regional" might think that there is a gentlemens agreement but I can think that either the "regional" didn't understand the conversation (i.e. delusional); or there was an agreement but the "airline" might not honour it.

From your comments I'm going to assume you're talking about Rex and J*.

My Opinion: I just can't see it. I can't imagine any offer that they could make that would be financially attractive. J* and Rex don't compete on any routes, Qlink do pretty well on the routes where they do compete, etc, etc.

SDT

There were similar rumours going around in 2007/2008 between Qlink and J* and as far as I'm concerned the same logic applies:

J* was created by Geoff Dixon. Are you telling me that in 2007/2008 GD would threaten the expansion of his 'baby' by agreeing to limit the amount of Eastern/Sunnies pilots wanting to join? Answer: He's not!

Even today, with AJ at the head of the Qantas group. IMHO, there is no way that AJ is going to stop any Qlink pilots transferring to J*. (AFAIK, late last year there were resignations from Sunnies to J*)

DIVOSH!

P.S. Thanks, Psycho Joe et al, for taking the (predictable) opportunity to have a go at the feds.

Funny thing is, last I heard J* pilots are leaving AIPA in droves. Something to do with letting the QF guys into J* and the senior J* FO's now being years away from commands instead of a few months. J* pilots (esp senior FO's) are feeling that AIPA aren't looking after their interests and are looking after ex-QF pilots instead (who'd have ever thought that? :eek:)

D!

This is not a rumour, this is fact.

Stay safe out there!

Hmm..
 

Okay, fine.

But unless you've got it in writing it's hearsay! If you have it in writing then take it to someone (Feds, press, etc.)

DIVOSH!

My god,
these type of agreements wont be in writing!
The only way you will get them if either a CP/CEO admits it OR someone from HR etc has enough balls to expose it?

Either way it wont happen, I have no doubt that some form of agreement exists at small points in the hiring cycles/expansion of an airline, but agree that if its a large intake and only candidates from one particular airline then they will most likely get the call up.

I still wonder at this exact same scenario for myself when I see MANY pilots go to airlines that I am on hold files for!
Easy solution to that, get on other hold files :D

I've heard the complete opposite to this rumor in that an airline is going to take as many pilots as it can from particular regionals, then move their own fleets into the void left by the lack of crew.

That's not as silly as it sounds.

If a certain Domestic airline really wanted to stick it to a certain Regional airline, maybe for not playing nicely during some recent merger negotiations, then the ideal way of doing that would be to decimate the ranks (of said Regional airline) of it's ATPL holders in order to crew it's fledgeling Turbo-prop operation. One way of eliminating the opposition in one fell swoop! How's that for a conspiracy theory. :ok:

Blueskymine, if there is some sort of "agreement", trust me it'll evaporate quicker than an ice cube on a SAAB dash in summer once commercial necessity comes into play. Realistically however, you may find that while Jetstar has fed you the line about helping out REX, it probably has more to do with their crewing dilemas WRT the possible transfering QF pilots, and their own logistical problems. The REX line is just their way of saying they have no F#cking idea what's going on with their crewing at the moment! Of course they're too arrogant to admit that to you.

I believe it's in writing from HR (to numerous pilots) and with the feds at present.

This is nothing to do with Virgin, lets be clear.

Lets also be clear that Qlink don't want VA to get stronger and would prefer to have REX around. Qlink and rex almost supplement each other on many routes.

Bravo Krusty. :D

Blueskymine, yes I know it's Jetstar you are talking about, and I did refer to them in the second para of my post. The Virgin/REX thing was just me throwing in a "Reverse" conspiracy theory. Just to spice things up a bit. :E

Di_Vosh is right. Give the Feds a call and speak to Lawrie. That may make things clearer. It's probably safe to say that those pilots on the JQ hold file will get the nod sooner or later, once of course Jetstar get their own house in order.

I can confirm however that Jetstar have commited to tell REX when they are about to make firm offers. Whether this reults in them giving REX 28 days notice, or a call on Friday to tell them they expect a start on the Monday! Who knows? An official line from JQ is that "...it's a REX problem, not ours!" That should put the "commitment" into some sort of perspective.

Personally my opinion of Jetstar's T&C's is even lower than that of REX. Good luck, but be careful of what you wish for. :}

Blocking Career Progression
 

I can remember when there were a number of Kendell Airlines pilots who had qualified for entry to Qantas Long Haul prior to the collapse of Ansett. Ansett collapses and of course these guys go scrambling for work with companies such as Eastern (now part of the Qlink system). Once they got into Eastern the interest that QF Longhaul had previously demonstrated ceased. The history is that years ago the Eastern pilots tried to use legal process to force Australian/QF shorthaul into providing them with career progression from the Dash 8 to the jets.The process failed. It would be interesting to find out what percentage of say REX pilots have gone into QF compared to Qlink Dash 8 crew. Yet Jetstar (even though it is owned by QF) has taken on a number or Qlink Dash 8 crew.

Different recruitment departments, different prejudices.