PERTH 6/12
 

So we have a little weather in Perth and the whole QF operation comes to a standstill!
VB etc seem to still operate?
PA says airport is closed yet VB still operate?
WTF is going on? thank christ it doesnt snow in Perth!
How do they operate a service out of DRW in the wet if they have to shut the place down in a storm?
Not a good look QF!
:ugh:

To be fair, it's not just QF. It appears that the whole airport was shut down due to storms. Reports of people sitting on landed aircraft for up to 8 hours, which, if true is just ridiculous, IMO.

Surely there were long enough breaks between lightning activity to allow ground handling?

Maybe I need to be a little more obvious for you.
the only aircaft holding and delayed were QF and Jetstar. VB etc were getting away!

Okay, maybe I misunderstood you. I didn't realise you were referring to departures, my error. I am referring to arrivals :-)

Similar thing happened in MEL recently on a flight I was on.All pax boarded,doors shut then we just sat there for 3-4 hours before pushing back.I felt for the passengers just arrived after long flights stuck on aircraft on taxiways for hours.All to do with OH&S I believe.No workers outside while lightning around.Problem was a line of storms kept arriving so no time between storms to get things moving again.

What is your beef RU/16?

Cant help bad weather
 

RU 16:-

Delays hapen in Darwin too because of storms.

Ever heard of a 5 mile warning?

It seems QF ground staff have far more restrictive requirements than the likes of Aerocare when it comes to being safe. Minimum 15 aircraft lined up? Ridiculous, when other operators found windows to service their aircraft.

RU
Get a grip, it's weather, it happens. You want to be the person to tell someone

their son or husband got cooked by lightning on the tarmac?

And just for balance video from ABC news,
oldpinger, I'm sorry, but I simply don't believe that there were no lightning clear periods available for ground handlers to accept aircraft and allow their unloading at air bridges, alleviating having to sit on a plane for longer than your flight.

I totally accept the need to 'be safe', but surely this is going overboard. It simply smacks of the Safety Police going totally OTT.

A flight I was on recently got stuck waiting at the gate for about an hour at SY because ML had only just reopened after being closed due wx, and a huge amount of traffic from SY and elsewhere was already enroute.

These weather ground holds all started after a guy was struck by lightning at SYD during a storm. Ever since then it's been taken very seriously. Can't speak specifically for PER, but as far as I understand, ALL operators should be held to the same standards. Lights on = nobody on the ramp. However some ground staff don't seem to care or notice... VA/QF or any other operator shouldn't be encouraging their staff to disregard the airport warnings. :ugh:

Ah, no.

Virgin did cancel at least one flight to Port Hedland today due weather.

Thunderbolts and lightning
 

Lightning is just one issue. The flow on effect from the initial delays compounded the problem. And don't forget on top of that is the fact that Perth international airport is a chicken**** outfit, not long ago it was rated 8th worst international airport in the world!
Now, where are those mining profits again, a squirt of that money could go a long way........

Oh for sure,

Yeah that's what they mentioned as the reason for the hold. This was compounded by some bloke leaving the aircraft to go home in the short period they boarded the remaining passengers on our flight. They then had to find his bags. Would have helped if he had told the crew at the time that was leaving! Having spent 12 hours now at the airport-waiting for bags to get through the mess caused by all the aircraft- i'm getting more philosophical about it all.

Wouldn't be surprised to see the mining companies get jack of PH, and build their own airport for FIFO.

Didn't one of the mining bosses offer to bring some of his heavy equipment to PH and build a second runway for free?

SimonBl, out of interest, how much do you know about airlines and schedules?

Let me lay it out for you. Let's say the bays are full- not an unusual prospect in Perth- when the 5nm alert occurs. The alert lasts for 40 min- not unusual either. In the mean time, five aircraft arrive for those bays that were scheduled to be vacated by then. So aircraft 1-5 are now up to 40 min late as are the arriving flights. Those arriving flights all arrive on bay at the same time 40 min late. Half an hour later the ramp goes off due T/S again for half an hour. These aircraft are now more than an hour late departing and in the meantime, another bunch of arrivals are more than an hour arriving at the gate- with the next arrivals landing as they park.

In short, when you're operating a terminal at virtually full capacity- as most Qantas terminals do- then it doesn't take many thunderstorms before there are going to be multiple hours of delays to arriving and departing aircraft.

Why doesn't this affect DJ to the same extent? They're probably not operating at terminal capacity like Qantas is at Perth. They have more bays available and a lower flight frequency thus not compounding the problem as quickly.

The longest delay I've heard recorded thus far was Newman- Perth. 1:35 flight time, 8:24 to get from touchdown to blox.

For you heros that like dodging lightning bolts, I was told one strike today was 60m from a parked aircraft and another hit a nearby building and took out the PA system.

I suppose, RU/16, you play golf under a thunderstorm? :cool:

There's a claim in this article that an SAA A340 was struck by lightning at 1330

Thousands stranded at Perth Airport - The West Australian

Get back to work Capn Bloggs!! :E

I saw the SAA A340 fly over Perth Airport when a lightning bolt went cloud to cloud beneath it...

The bloke lying on the baggage thingee gets my Darwin Award nomination for December...

Keg, thanks for the considered response. In answer to your direct question, not a lot. I am beginning to see that I may have jumped a bit too high here, so I apologise to an extent. I still think 6-8 hours is excessive, but see how it could have got to that state.

Just a bit of updated info. From my understanding- and this gleaned from a bunch of different sources including the news- the airport was on a 5nm for most of the day from 1000 onwards. Now THAT is unusual in terms of having T/S with lightening around for that length of time and it certainly wouldn't take long for a back log of 15-20 aircraft just for the Qantas terminal. Once they say 'go', to turn all those aeroplanes around is going to take a bloody long time with only 5-7 gates available. Depending on the aircraft types would depend on the gates available, etc.

Just 'one of those days' I guess. Glad I wasn't out in it.

where would you suggest?

anyone know what happend to the pax on qf777 who had a cardio event ?

Laid him out on a 'baggage thingy' and jump started him. :)

....they wish:ok:

"copa airlines embraer 190 gets struck by lightning"


Watch the r/h nose wheel just after the lightning hits the tail. Lucky no one was on the headset at this time. Puts it into perpective!

IIRC during the storm when they guy in SYD was struck the Weather Bureau reported that the lightning strike count within the airport perimeter during that storm went over 4000.

As you saw in the Copa clip strikes can happen in 'apparently' safe conditions.

As a study into the ramifications of ordering or allowing people to stay outdoors during thunderstorm activity the MOCK TRIAL trial of a real QF Duty Maintenance Manager was held at the QF SDT. It was conducted by real lawyers and Police prosecutors. The DMM was accused of culpability arising out of the death by lightning strike of an apprentice engineer who was out on the ramp during a thunderstorm.

I can tell you that after that little glimpse into the legal process the storm warning & ramp clearance policies were strictly adhered to during every future instance.

Is this actually the case?

Qantas passengers fume as storm creates chaos - The West Australian


This seems like an unusual thing to have in an award. Last time I was at an airport when the Aerodrome Lightning Warning was issued all staff ran for cover, and no one was allowed outside til the warning passed. Now VA and others apparently have an exemption to that and let staff work in lightning storms ? Or is it just G. Thomas having a go at those "over unionised QF employees creating havoc for passengers by having outdated work practices compared to their Virgin counterparts" again?

Hmmmm...seems he's gone now.............

I can't speak for engineers and baggage handlers but for tech crew, it is policy contained in the operational suite of manuals: "Operations during Thunderstorms (Including Ramp Operations)" and it is published by Flight Technical. Nothing to do with the award.

Fancy GT not letting the facts get in the way of a good story....

Lightning can strike well ahead of, or behind, a storm system. 5 kms is really not enough to ensure safety. See this article -

Lightning Detectors Provide Early Thunderstorm Warning and Save Lives

I have observed a lightning strike just over my back fence when the associated storm was about 10 miles away. It was a very small bolt, but probably could have killed. There was no associated thunder. I was mowing the lawn at the time, rushing to finish before the rain. Needless to say, I packed up immediately & hightailed it into the house!

I think this could be an explaination as to why people get struck on golf courses, on the beach, in the park, etc. They think that because the storm is in the distance they are safe. It would also explain why a number of these victims survive, with the lightning bolt being very small.

But were the staff members of other airlines actively working outside on the ramp whilst an aerodrome lightning warning was active at Perth yesterday? If so it reflects very poorly on these other companies for allowing this to happen, and on the staff for choosing to be out in the open, even though the storms seem to be long way away.
My thoughts are that the airport authorities would have lifted the warnings if there was a chance to do so, even for a few minutes, to allow some waiting aircraft the chance to park at the bay and connect an aerobridge.

Or are Qantas just being overcautious?

At Sydney if the lights are flashing, they flash all over the airport and everyone is off the ramp no matter what company they work for. I've not heard of something like this being in an award. It would be an OHS issue first and foremost and it wouldn't matter if the award said you can work outside, it won't absolve a manager's duty of care of the individual.

That did happen however the windows of opportunity were to small. The problem was all of the parking bays/bridges were occupied so aircraft had to be dispatched before any waiting aircraft could park and disembark pax.

Guys, the 5nm warning is Qantas company policy. The 5nm tarmac shutdowns are directed from the Sydney operations centre based on weather radar. Whether this is sensible or not, and whether they could've done it better, well that's another issue. But they're the facts.

Yes, there was a LOT of lightning in those storms. We sat there, engines running for 5 hours (and we got off lightly compared to others), watching it and waiting for the tarmac to open and the backlog to clear. It was a spectacular display at times. One outbound crew relayed to me how passengers were whining in the gate lounge that they should be allowed to board, until a lightning bolt struck the near the aerobridge with a nice loud crack. Then they went real quiet!

Re the SAA airbus, don't know whether it was struck by lightning (though one of our 767s certainly was struck during approach), but the media report is not entirely correct. It had two burst/flat tyres. It was not an indication problem. How do I know that? It turned off the runway right in front of us after landing and sat there while the fire crews and their ground engineer inspected it. The deflated tyres were clearly visible, one on the left bogie and one on the centre. That incident, plus several medical issues on various aircraft, just added to a really crap day.

It was definitely one of those "let's chuck on another 6 tonnes" days! There were indeed some very agitated and anxious passengers, but feedback was that the pax, despite a few eyeing off the doors & slides, were generally very happy with how the crews handled it all. A few PAs stating that "we share your frustration and pain" (which was quite genuinely true!) seemed to do the trick.

I only did 3:30 in MEL a couple of months back and it was ME who was starting to eye off the doors and slides. The overhead hatch was being opened much more frequently. I even questioned whether I could get out and then climb back in and re-stow the rope! :ok: That they were doing so after up to 8 1/2 hours is no surprise.