Qantas Pilots, You Are Losing The Battle.
 

AIPA, unless you can quickly and comprehensively counter this sort of management PR spin, you have lost your battle for public opinion.

Qantas management is painting you as a bunch of stuck up, overpaid, Prima Donnas as this article in the Herald Sun demonstrates rather well. You must counter this, not "explain" it!

Bear in mind that the average person reads just the first few paragraphs and then switches off.


If you strike with public opinion against you, the Government will most definitely not side with you because they won't want to see their poll numbers dragged down. For all we know, Tony Abbott could make a pilot strike into a cause celebre and bring down the Gillard Government.

You must get your message out! Have you not hired a professional spin doctor? Don't try and do it yourself!





Qantas pilots bid for first class deal | Herald Sun

I can't see how the seat demand would 'cost' $15 million a year. The seats would be empty otherwise wouldn't they?

I wonder how many dumb management decisions it would take to come up with $15 million in costs?

Everyone would have to admit that allowing such a crass generalisation as 'The Herald Sun believes.....senior pilots would earn $500K' can't do anything but harm.

Agreed Sunfish,

Pilots need to decide whether they are battling the offshoring of jobs or not. Confusing the issue with crapola just gives AJ the huge ammunition he needs to sway the public opinion.

Get real AIPA. Don't fight the staff travel issue and the offshoring issue simultaneously. Keep it to jobs and win the moral high ground.

Losing the battle big time!!!!!
I am in the uk at the moment and there was a snippet in the news over here. All that you could notice was the bits that said engineers wanting free qantas club memberships and qantas pilots wanting free seats for friends and 500k salaries. Both unions listen...within 2 days I can guarantee the public perception has swung. Better get smart and very quickly...

I agree you are giving them too much ammo.
Don't make it about money, QF can then generalise about salaries (some Senior Captains would be on the equivelent of nearly $500k according to their own bar room talk if you comparied it to post-tax money in the bank) don't give them the opportunity to make that a talking point.
Sacrifice the staff travel etc for the next round in three years.
Make history by turning up to the table with Australias simplest ever wish-list. One item. Job security.That will show the public how serious this is.
And as Sunfish says, get a professional and get in the media or it's a lost battle. Remember that millions of Ausi's are raising families on $60k a year, they can't be expected to take your side when they look at the money side of things. It's not human nature.

Chronic Snoozer:

It doesn't matter a flying *** what you think, know, understand.

It is what the public thinks!!! NOT YOU!!!!

There is no point explaining words like "sub load", etc., all the public knows is that they have to pay thousands of dollars for a seat, and you greedy bastards want one for free!

For goodness sake hire a professional to do your spin for you. Patient explanation and reasoning about empty seats will get you absolutely nowhere!

You are losing on on a number of fronts:

1. Rat is controlling spin.

2. There is only one side out there.

3. There is NOTHING presenting any balance or focus for debate.

Pretty one sided battle from these eyes and you guys deserve much better. This is not a practice run so either get your act together or be prepared for consequences that none of us will like.

Exactly I almost died when I heard these Qantas Club demands from both sides. Are you losing focus?! ALAEA Fed Sec, what the hell were you thinking sir? (I single you out because I know you will read this, but equally can be said for AIPA). It seems that you are clouding the job security issue.

If you can't get that through, you won't have a job to enjoy QC membership with.

From the Daily Telegraph in Sydney today:

and there's a poll to go with it.

Qantas pilots' bid for family flights | thetelegraph.com.au

I just selected Yes to see the poll results - only 133 votes but 111 answered Yes to the question "Is special seating for a pilot's family too much?"

So yes, you won't get any support from the public and not much from within QANTAS as well.

the worst part is, well, apart from the fact that the PR war has already been lost, is that the public perception resulting from all the spin BS, is that it results in painting all pilots with the same brush! i have had people tell me i must be rich when i tell them im a Raaus/GA flying instructor. and they dont believe me when i tell them i only earn about 10 to 15 per hour.

though there is a story in todays SMH in sydney that actually has a pay figure listed
"The secretary of the Australian and International Pilots Association, Steve Anderson, said the new contracts, under which cadets could accumulate a training debt of $150,000 to the airline while earning as little as $34,000 a year, would place Jetstar at the bottom of the international scale and would lead to transient, less experienced pilots."

Pilots claim new contracts put safety at risk

its a very small victory, but judging by the fact that there is a POLL on these demads, then you are already royally screwed.

Ok, you guys now need to feed an article that counters that and have a poll also, any ideas on what the question would be in your poll ?

after having demanded some answers from Aipa i can see that we as a group are on a uphill battle...These guys are still stuck back in the late 80'S somewhere and still harbour a lot of the sentiment and animosity from back then, neither of which is going to help any of us in this current environment.....Why is not everybody demanding these guys to hire professionals to deal with the media and the public perception.....why the hell do we all pay dues.....for f**ks sake get on with it.....

It's funny how little tidbits like this just pop up and get into the media.

Unfortunately whether they are cherry picked or not is irrelevant. The public or the boneheads that read the soc of the paper that read the telegraph (like me :O) Will only read

Two international flights a year
$500k a year

and conclude that all pilots are overpaid, demanding, whining systems managers:ugh::ugh::ugh:

So is the curtained economy seat an economy seat or in the rest quarters or both depending on A/C?

Btw isn't that the whole point of negotiating start high and compromise until you get what you actually wanted?

Cameron

Poll is at 50/50 now. Lots of ppruners on there? :E

(...and why would you click 'yes' to see the results? You can click 'no' (like I did) to see the results too.)

What the boneheads out there in telegraphland fail to understand is the negotiating process. Anything that gets put on the table has to be negotiated off the table. All union claims include nice to have snowflakes chance in hell articles.The company also has the 'no chance' requests.One of those takes out one of yours. If you go cap in hand with very basic demands you get sfa.

The qf pr achine is well paid up and rehearsed. Countering it with how much the execs are getting for very poor results is fighting fire with fire.Remember geoff exiting with 11 million? remember AJ getting 44% as he walked in the door? They get multiples of the top paid pilot and are not responsible for anything like you guys take on daily. 500K is a lot of dough and few get it.The vast majority of pilots get far far less.
The average / median / mean pilot I suspect gets paid quite poorly.

Sunfish is so right it's not funny! Its all about public perception.


Hmm ... the difference I see is

Managment deal in spin, general fluffing, and, well, bull****e each and every single day. To their managers, to employees, to the media.

Pilots and Engineers on the other hand only work in fact while on the job.

Think about this ... If you were too high and too fast on approach no amount of spin is going to fix it right? Because anything you say will get shot down. Its all about the hard facts.
Whereas the line from management might go something like "management would not accept they were too high and denied they were too fast. In fact we carried the extra height and speed incase we needed to make a missed approach which is exactly what we ended up doing. All involved Management should now pat themselves on the back for such great foresight."

Pilots and engineers need to start thinking in this way when talking to the media!!! Whenever I see a line quoted from some AIPA rep I literally cringe.



Now I guess anyone these days can take out a half page space in the major newpapers? What could you do with this space?

What about reminding everyone of certain problems Qantas have had with their aircraft since outsourcing maintenance overseas. Such as
The oxygen bottle explosion on the 747, and
The QF32 engine explosion


Well Mr and Mrs General Public ... guess what?! Qantas now wish to outsource the pilots too

What do you think would have been the outcome of QF32 if an outsourced Indian pilot with a fake licence and a 200 hour cadet pilot had been at the controls?!


Would you let your family fly the "new" Qantas?

I wonder how many flights management and board members get per year, and the benefits for their families? They probably get guaranteed Business or even First class. Even 1 of those is worth more than the 2 economy trips that have supposedly been asked for!

Maybe a good place to start with the spin.

For Chrissake get professional PR help or you might as well shut down now.

I'll put my hand up and contribute to an advertising campaign.

The punchline has to be short and sweet and attention grabbing.

How about:

---

"Hello this is your pilot speaking, would you like fries with your order?"

Alan Joyce wants to pay the pilot of your flight the same as a student flipping burgers.

Are you happy about your life being Mc valued?

---

A little dramatic perhaps, but the Qf PR department already well and truly started down that path..

Just on a side note:
That poll is deliberately misleading. Even tho more than 50% have voted NO the poll looks like double the number have voted YES. :suspect:

You have to protect the McNuggets at all times !!!

These guys are punching way below the belt now. Spin spin spin lies lies deceit deceit !!!

If the Qantas group is not performing then I vote the first thing that should be cut is the execs over inflated pay packets and bonuses !!
Lead from the top AJ :ok:

Yep reading now. I agree with these posts entirely. I didn't make up the claim list, our members did, its my job to secure the best deal possible. Just to make one thing clear, Alan and the spokesmodel are lying about much of this. The Engineer claim is not for free membership, it's about the ability of our members to purchase membership as can 20,000,000 other Aussies. The wage figuures they are spruiking are fabricated.

Qantas can attack as much as they like. Our powder is saved and ready for when the time comes. Every time they lie publically, we will expose more poor maintenance practices from overseas to drag the debate back to the real issues. It's up to them really about how much they want out there, remember of course, the next engine failure is just around the corner.

I think back to 89, as an apprentice I was partially removed from the pilots dispute. All I remember is that they wanted limos to work. Right or wrong, that is what I remember. It's correct to say that public perception is important and elaborate claims do not look good. I'm sure AIPA are aware of what is going on but I will discuss this with them when we next meet.

very confused story that was poorly written and badly verified - a good demo why newspapers should not outsource sub editors - 'jetstarise newspapers? and why Unions need to play the media game better than the likes of Ms Worthless and the little bloke.

Interresting in that the Tele mash is confusingly speaking of access to the CC's crew rest seats - which actually raises the question about where is the CC Union in all of this? - I know I did not ask for a curtained seat for Mrs Airtags -

Just a thought though - Pilots Engineers, the Ramp, the Ground Staff - they all seem to be rightly putting the heat on Q's offshoring - yet CC Union has not even popped a comment up on pprune.

AT



AT

On the contrary. I'm not really concerned by this tabloid trash.

Because i can only ask . . . . .


IS THAT ALL YA GOT????


They spun the same crap yesterday with the engineers and Q club.


IS THAT ALL YOU CRETINS HAVE???


Evil engineers and pilots negotiating for lounge access and jump seats.


IS THAT REALLY ALL YOU INCOMPETENT INDIVIDUALS HAVE?


Great spin idiots. Really well timed because the last time i looked, NOTHING IS HAPPENING!!! I don't see terminals full of pissed off passengers. I don't see engineers refusing to meet planes. Todays tabloid crap is forgotten tomorrow. Daily telegraph pole, a most credible measure of public sentiment. Fu*%!ng spare me.

These idiots have shot their bolt WAY too early. Do you think the editors of these most reputable papers will want to run the same crap again when there really is some action????? THINK TIMING!!!! You can rest assured ALEA and AIPA are. Something about a senate inquiry due to report next month? Hmmm can't see Qantas club or jump seats making the headlines then idiots.


SHOW US WHAT YA GOT!!!!!


Oh I forgot. They already did when the engineers flushed em out last week.


PADDY AND REG YOU ARE FINISHED!


The staff have had it and are coming from below (sic) and the BIG INSTITUTIONAL SHAREHOLDERS are coming from above.

Thats right, SHOW US HOW YOU HAVE IMPROVED THE VALUE AND RETURNS FOR THE SHAREHOLDERS YOU INCOMPETENTS! $2.11 today, wonder where it will be this time next month?


KEEP THE FAITH MY FRIENDS


These shallow individuals have nothing and we have not yet begun to fight. Our leaders are smarter than the liars, cheats and rip off merchants that presume to run OUR airline.

We dealt with Dixon and we will deal with this ridiculous crew also.

Suggest, leave the 80s thing alone, I don't believe it is relevant, not one bit. Most of the young journalists writing on the news desk don't really know anything about it. The main thrust of the argument is the the off shoring of Australian jobs. Pilots are always on the move, hard for them to defend themselves when the Q PR department has all day to dream up and write crap.

Sunfish is right, get a Spin doctor on the case.

Spot on, Qantas pilots are so busy keeping the airline going whilst their management are doing all they can to discredit them. Check the share price, Joyce is desperate. Pilots fly the aircraft not MS Wirth! That's the message! Get it out.

As a punter, I think I would be interested in seeing what the Management Pay & Bonus structure is ... and what KPIs trigger those bonuses.

I would be interested in seeing whether Qantas' stated priority of "Safety" is supported by those KPIs

If Management were not willing to make their details available, as they so happily do with their Employees' details, I would be asking ... what do they have to hide?

There you are ... there's something to start with ...

Pilots, listen very carfully!!!!
 

As claimed by the news
An extract from the enterprise bargaining agreement claim the pilots are putting to Qantas states: "The pilot in command shall, in consultation with the CSM [customer service manager], have the ability to allocate one curtained economy class seat at his/her discretion."

The "curtained" seat refers to a rest seat that would otherwise be available to cabin crew on a long-haul flight.

It was previously voted on among the crew as to who would get the seat, but pilots are demanding that they now get to pick and choose above everyone else on board.
:ugh:
ITS IS THE CABIN CREW REST SEAT(CURTAINED OFF). NO CAPTAIN WILL EVER GET THE OPPORTUNITY TO OVERRIDE THE CABIN CREW REST FACILITY AND PUT SOME FRIEND OR FRIEND OF SOMEONE IN THERE!!!!!
YOU WANT TO UPSET CABIN CREW GO AHEAD WITH THAT STUPID CLAIM.
REMEMBER DON'T BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS YOU!!!

Look Out Sydney Ferries!
 

Did someone mention Dixon?

GAAM also lease aircraft to Jetstar. Yet another beneficiary of the Jetstar growth.

They did the same for the ALAEA yesterday.

Smash them back: Tell of the corrupt gifting of ipads, bottles of wine and lounge memberships.

Publish every single email from the Jetstar pilots in the SMH.

Yeah,two quotes from years past worth remembering at this time i believe.
"Those that forget the lessons of history are destined to repeat them"and "The only thing new in the world,is the history you don't know yet."
Essentially,these battles can not be won with emotional arguments.
As has been said by others,you must engage media savvy professionals to have
a fighting chance IMHO.
Good luck Blokes.

did anyone just notice the sudden jump in percentage change on the telegraph website? media manipulation perhaps.

McPilots, McEngineers, McCabin Crew; that is the objective.

My guess is that the good old New South Wales Right wing Labor fix is in.

That means there will be no support whatsoever from the Government or the ACTU, exactly like when Hawkie was P.M.

Gillard wouldn't dare.

The Courier Mail also reported that 'a source close to the airline' had told them all about the pilots' fancy claims. A close source that works for the Qantas PR machine, maybe? :hmm: (Edit: the same article with the same byline has appeared in two of the Murdoch papers. The Daily Telegraph has a similar article by a different author with a claim that 'documents obtained by TDT reveal they are also pursuing other perks". Obtained out of an envelope with a Qantas PR department logo on it, perchance?).

The journos these days are too lazy to report anything except what the PR poppets tell them and the media make a lot of money from Qantas' advertising contracts. There's no point in getting mad about it, it's a fact of modern 'journalism' :yuk:. Either way and for whatever reason, the press are starting to make pilots look precious and that won't help your cause if it's not countered. PR is deceptively difficult and as Sunfish said, you need an expert.

Doing your own PR is like doing your own plumbing. In easy cases you'll probably get away with it but make one mistake and you'll be up to your knees in raw, unprocessed sewerage. Hire someone!
Pilot union's list of luxury travel perks angers battling Qantas | Courier Mail
Qantas pilots demand cheap family flights | thetelegraph.com.au

Good luck.

The media campaign steps up. Easy to influence journalists with ipads and expensive wine i suspect.

AIPA should fire back and list all the perks management get as part of their package,

The PR spin is difficult to control.
You have to remember most journalism in this country is about selling advertising. Just watch the likes of ACA and TT.
I would bet those stories were given to the media in exchange for more paid advertising.
You have to trump advertising money with sensationalism. Its a ugly, dirty way to do business but that is the standard of the media.

It is difficult to control, as there is no limit to the amount of money Qantas executives will spend on PR. The information flow is mostly one way at the moment (Qantas corporate to media). That needs to be corrected. But we all knew this would happen and AIPA also were well aware of it from some time ago.

The journo problem we can't fix. Many journos are too lazy to fact check and will just reprint a Qantas corporate PR spin almost word for word whether or not it is complete nonsense. We just have to attempt to control the information flow better.

As for the article: riddled with misconceptions. For a start, since when was it "news" that staff can get 10% fares? Most if not all full service airlines have this type of staff travel and usually it's much better than what Qantas offers. His quoted staff fare to LA is out by a factor of nearly 3 (too low) because he neglected to say it is based on FULL (undiscounted and non-promotional) fare prices plus charges. And the concept that this will cost employee jobs and millions of dollars is plucked straight from corporate PR's bowels, because the proposed seats are not revenue seats, nor are full fare paying passengers EVER displaced.

In this information age you can defend your position Dutch Roll. Every QF pilot should be in the comments section of these articles defending the pilots position exposing the mistruths, exposing the corruption. You have numbers we all have a keyboard.

Emails, texts, letters to Senators, phone calls fight the fight.

Thanks Fed Sec for giving your side of the story :ok:

... and family and friends willing to 'comment' after such scurrilous drivel. Mobilise your mums / dads / partners / spouses / kids etc. but make the message CLEAR and not technical.

Is special seating for a pilot's family too much?

• Yes 26.97% (89 votes)
• No 73.03% (241 votes)