So is an annualised salary any chance this time around or not Steve?

Qf are an absolute deadset no on the Annual Salary. So yes it is a chance. Last time they were an absolute deadset no on a new level and we got it.

Lets call the break even point 24 years then. You leave before then, you lose. You last longer, you win. I would say most LAMEs at Qf will finish their career with over 24 years as a LAME at Qf. They end up well in front. How does that make the premier carrier in this country far behind the other players?

I note that we are only comparing with Virgin here. Try doing it with Jetstar, Sunstate, John Holland or SkyWest. It might just be that the new Virgin Agreement was a really good outcome and they are now ahead of the pack.

Fed Sec,

I compare VB with QF because they are the second biggest operator in Australia.

The fact you have answered my question as you have has only reinforced my belief in you and your abilities.

I asked myself how I would answer my question and I was unsure.

I sincerely believe that the PPRuNers out there with an interest in our topic will benefit from our small debate.

GB

The EA committee and I have done quite a bit of work on all these issues. We actually have a comparison table drawn up in our office to track it all.
Not much more I can say about the merits of one employer over another.

On another note the 2 teams met today to thrash things out. Was not there myself but reports are coming in.

cheers

Gas Bags,as you can probably decipher by my user-name I am at QF.There is an ageing workforce here and I believe this EBA will be the last or second last for many that I work with until they are off to Retirement Land.The fast track pay system for lower paid LAMES will not only guarantee QF a stable and engaging workforce,it may even instill a Level of willingness to accept the process of moving to the new world of Part 66 Licensing,which will see many of us upskilling .

QF EA
 

I am a sunny bunny, firstly thank you for all the support. Has been greatly appreciated.
Fed Sec now has the guidelines they will employ against you - thank you for taking the time to come up and chat recently. Emails are good but nothing like a face to face.
We are fast approaching the 2 year from expiry mark and in real terms no closer to a resolution. Of course if logic prevails could be over in a week - logic & QF manager is like oil and water doesn't mix.

see you outside where the real work gets done.

bigdog
 

I suspect sunn'ys engineering issues will be solved as soon as the mainline EBA is sorted.

I suspect sunn'ys engineering issues will be solved as soon as the mainline EBA is so
 

Thanks ampclamp, however I won't hold my breath, as I could turn blue and fall down.
:eek:
Our manager is only good for 1 thing shutting down facilities - ARAQ townsville,Southern Mildura, and the home of Sunstate Maryborough.:{
The only time he has a spine is when his boss sticks his arm in the back slot to operate his mouth.

GB,

I agree with you mate, this pay structure at QF is a joke!

If the people who represent us or others think we are going to sit here and calculate 24+ years to be better off, then people have chocks for brains.

Who knows where the aviation industry is heading over the next 20 + years, what I do know is that most of us wont be here, QF anyway.

Make it fair for everyone.

MEA332,

I am glad somebody else shares my viewpoint. I think that Steve does to some extent as well, however I understand his position.

Approx. 15 years ago the guidance counsellors at the local high schools were advising their students that across their working lives they would change jobs and possibly careers no less than 7 times throughout their working lives.

That philosophy I am sure would be even more relevant today.

Unfortunately as LAE's tied into a pay structure that recognises experience gained (time served) within the company and does not recognise experience gained outside the company, we end up like the pilots being based on essentially a seniority system that sees rewards come purely on time served.

This is a two edged sword.

Qantas as a company deprives themselves the opportunity of employing some very experienced LAE's purely due to the fact that those people would be treated as first year LAE's under the Qantas pay scale, and shy away from applying due to this.

As well as that there is a tendency to not want to leave the system for fear of losing your place in it.

Both of those phenomena play into the companys hands and assist them in maintaining lower wages, as well as being out of touch with the modern world of a mobile workforce.

GB

This is all true. The problem is that 80% of the LAMEs are that far advanced into the system that they don't want it changed. It's a catch 22.

I have to agree on that one Steve, I am now sitting on lvl 6 with 1 A/F & 2 Eng's. Stuck in the middle with barely any training and not much incentive to go forward.
On good money so I can just lift my feet up and go with the flow for another 10-15 years. I hate that part of it. I want incentive to go forward or at least be recognised for my efforts.

gassy. bigdog
 

Gasbags thanks for the civilised input.Not sure I agree with you fully but worthy of discussion.
The pay system is full of multi edged swords depending on age, licenses held, time in the industry time in company, the airline competition ( new entrants have at times had to pay over the mark to get licences).So many factors. Very hard to please everyone.

Bigdog the acts in your workplace are designed to threaten the mainline guys if and when a PIA takes place.In that I am quite sure.
That's why I say your troubles will settle soon after mainline.Maybe I give them too much credit for cunning but that is what I see as a likely tactic.Either that or the court will rule first if the PIA rolls on.

While all this is going on why not mention that the AMEs in A380 who have now have their licenses are waiting once again as the company and association bicker over what level they are to come in as.

In the current system a conehead who get EIR for their first license gets about 3 levels. I believe the company and union are using the EBA and these new LAMEs as a bargaining tool for the new generation. Since they will be B1 and sign in all 5 categories it would seem fair that they enter the system at the same level as an initial EIR LAME, but apparently this isn't so.

Fed Sec could you expand on this?

QF graded wage scale
 

From what I've read and am aware of your system although not perfect allows you to move up a grade over time (4 years). This in effect pays you for experience on type, consider the possibility of no movement once at that grade. If you aren't deemed worthy of another type, you will only get an increase at EBA.
How would you feel that having held a license for 4 years, gained experience to be able to diagnose and fix problems faster than somebody who has held the license for a week. Yet you are on the same pay.
Sunnies have locked their guys down forever at the same point - only interested in the standard EBA inc 3%/year for ever. Also trying to stitch up next aircraft payment before you know type (turboprop or jet).
Be very careful with tweaking the GWS

its great to see the debate here, its a pity that its not on our own private forum though I dislike the press and other fiends being able to read

QF system good or bad ?
Voted in in 1997 ! it's 13 years old therefore some adjustment must be required though I do get p!ssed off with all the whingers who voted it in and yet now complain that they are quota restricted, oh woe is me

QF pay badly ? that is an absurd question of cousre their pay is bad they give most to the execs joyce 24% a year ago, buchanan 48% then too they look after themselves then tell all of us to tighten our belts or we'll be history

The ASU one of our most vigourous unions for dispute have been castrated (pardon the pun) by Joyce the !@#@$%% bringing in an automated system that will cull their numbers by 60% or more

2008 taught us LAMEs a valuable lesson without unity there is nothing we all need to rise up once again and wrest this company from an individual that has no concern, no love and to be perfectly honest not enough brains to save us.
He pushes jetstar at every turn the only reason jetstar is not full time into CBR is that joyce is scared of pulling bus class from the pollies they would crucify him

TO ALL THE CORPORATES OUT THERE FOOLED BY JOYCE"S SMOOZING

THERE IS NO EMPLOYEE ENGAGEMENT AT QANTAS ONLY DISENGAGEMENT

worst of all QANTAS used to be a great place to work now it is nothing more than an existence now im looking for the next opportunity I wont make my 24 years im afraid.

Oh and by the way FEDSEC why do we allow scabs to work along side us there is one at the moment who is repositioning for team 380

I get the feeling it's time to renew your relationship with our old friends QEPM,IPC,& QESM.

There is an uncomfortable silence after the recent spate of BA updates coming from the Liar Liar the 13th Man.

Just to answer a few questions that have appeared in this thread.

I'm often asked about thi but legally there is not much we can do about it. If a company wants to employ them they will but they must know that each and every scab is known and their engagement creates tension in the workplace. I somehow think that companies like this tension but it is certainly counterproductive.

The new LAMEs who pick up a 380 ticket do not fit into the pay stucture easily. If the company had it their way they would just say right, first licence you go to level 4. We say that they have first licence but the 380 sits outside the structure and attracts a dollar value of 6 points plus 4 for the B1 conversion. Problem is that they haven't converted anything, they just went straight there. We are currently trying to work through these issues as although nothing was converted, the third trade was picked up similar to an EIR LAME. An outcome to these discussions will be announced in a couple of weeks. These guys aren't being used as a bargaining tool by either party, I think that is just a cynical view of the complicated situation, I can understand blokes viewing the company motives with cynicism but we have always played this stuff with a straight bat.

No movement at EA meeting last week readers. The 16th of February draws closer and Qf have been well informed that we want something on the table by then. We aren't going to give them 12 months back pay to threaten us with this time around.

Steve,

As you know I am retired now and have absolutely nothing to do with this, just my curiosity wants to know something, no secrets and nothing to do with details.

Just wondering how amicable/friendly/cordial are your negotiations with Qantas over this EBA while this truly disgusting business is still going on at Sunstate? :confused: