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Nick Xenophon - The most important person in the future of Australian Aviation
From Ben Sandilands Plane Talking blog comes this speech made by the man that stopped Minister Albanese's madness with regard to jump seat policy. The man that says Pokies are not ok, also says 200 hour pilots sitting in the right seat of high performance airplanes is not okay either.
This couldn't come at a better time. Independents are getting a say in Australian politics and have the spotlight on them right now. What is also happening right now is a push to dumb down our workforce more by offshoring jobs and bringing in lower and lower experience levels. All this whilst experienced pilots are in abundance. Australia is not Europe/Asia, it has a a significant GA and Military sector that produces experienced pilots. The drive behind these new 'initiatives' is purely for the sake of $5 dollar fares. Its got to stop and as I've said before there is only so much juice you can squeeze out of the Aviation orange before something goes bang. Nick Xenophon might be the man to close the holes in the swiss cheese. I recommend contacting him and giving him the information he will need to expose this major hull loss waiting to happen. Perhaps its time for the tax payer and consumer to finally put his/her hand in his/her pocket and contribute towards our industry which has been the Australian Government cash cow and consumer bonanza for decades. As they say:you don't get something for nothing nor do you for $5 for that matter. Here is the link :Plane Talking Independent push for better air safety standards in Australia September 15, 2010 – 5:35 pm, by Ben Sandilands http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalk...on-600x402.jpg A 2008 photo of Senator Xenophon courtesy Wikipedia Commons Nick Xenophon, the independent senator for South Australia, says he will move for a Senate inquiry into pilot training in Australia, and seek to remedy airline reluctance to report safety breaches to Australian authorities. In a speech to the Australian and International Pilots Association last night he singled out the failures of Jetstar to promptly and fully report a nearly disastrous botched landing at Melbourne Airport in July 2007 , and the slashing of first officer experience levels to bare minimums at Qantaslink. Xenophon, like the House of Representatives independents who currently support the Gillard minority Labor government, is in an unprecedented position to end the inaction of Australian governments over aviation issues. And, although he didn’t mention it in his address to the AIPA annual dinner, he voiced sentiments shared by the coalition’s spokesperson on aviation, Warren Truss, whose election promises included making Australia a world leader in pilot training. These are some of the things Xenophon said last night, in the order that he said them, in the course of a fuller address, and a number of them have been highlighted in bold type. For some reason, I seem to be the only Federal pollie that I see on the Tiger flights I travel on. But whatever the airline, whenever you board the plane, you expect the pilot to have the skills to keep us all safe. The public rightly expects that a reduced cost ticket doesn’t mean reduced safety. Whether it’s a legacy carrier or a low-cost carrier, passengers trust the airline has spent the money and the time to ensure their pilots have the same skills, standards and safety levels across the board. But, based on today’s trends in aviation training and standards, can we? The airlines say they are trying to cut costs in order to make air travel more accessible. However, when it comes to safety, cost cutting would have to be the worst form of false economy. The fact is the cost of maintaining the sort of training and safety standards we’ve enjoyed for so long could be as little as fifty cents a flight per passenger. It is a pittance to pay for the level of world class safety your passengers deserve. Overseas experience has shown us, though, that when airline safety is compromised by cost-cutting, people lose a lot more than money and time. On February 12 last year in the United States, Continental Connections Flight 3047 took off from New Jersey for Buffalo in New York state. It was a Bombardier Q-400 … the same plane that’s flown daily between Canberra and Sydney and around the regions. Near its destination, the flight crashed into a residential area, killing 45 passengers, two pilots and two flight attendants and one person on the ground. The US National Transportation Safety Board has since blamed pilot error and poor training for the crash. It found that the plane’s captain, Marvin Renslow: “Had not established a good foundation of attitude instrument flying skills early in his career, and his continued weaknesses in basic aircraft control and instrument flying were not identified and adequately addressed.” ThE NTSB also found that First Officer, Rebecca Shaw, was exhausted from regularly commuting from Seattle to the East Coast and catching what sleep she could on the couch of the commuter airline’s office. There’s no doubt that the advent of low-cost carriers around the world has benefited tourism and trade in Australia and internationally. In the past decade, air travel has grown by 7 percent per year and it’s expected to remain at this rate of growth in years to come. But has anyone stopped to ask, where will all the pilots to enable this travel come from? And, more importantly, what training will they receive? I’m very grateful for the work of former CASA Flying Operations Inspector and former Head of Pilot Training with National Jet Systems, Dick MacKerras, who has done extensive research into the issue of aviation safety and pilot training in Australia and around the world. Historically, pilots were required to have a minimum of 1-thousand to 15-hundred hours of flying experience before they could get into the co-pilot’s seat for a regional carrier. But this standard is slipping, with many companies now thinking more about how they can fast-track pilots. When passengers buy their airline ticket, do you think they realise that, in some cases, the plane might be flown by someone with as little as 200 hours of experience? The 2007 pilots shortage saw a reduction in QantasLink’s required flight hours from 1000 hours of flight experience to just 200 for First Officers. Three years on, and the standard hasn’t been returned to the 1000 hour minimum. When I heard this figure I was shocked. It amazed me that the current minimum mandated requirement for flight hours before a pilot can gain their commercial licence is just 200 hours … and I suspect most Australians would have the same reaction I did. After all, 200 hours is not much more than what a teenage driver requires to get their P-plates in some states. In the United States, a minimum standard of 15-hundred hours flying hours is now required before they pilots can pilot a commercial passenger flight. This wasn’t some airline initiative, it was the initiative of Congress and President Obama, as a result of the Buffalo crash. Most notably, the Airline Safety and Federal Aviation Administration Extension Act requires all commercial airline pilots to have completed a minimum of 15-hundred flight hours, in addition to appropriate operational experience, before they may begin piloting commercial passenger flights. I believe we need to urgently review our current standards for flight experience in light of the US legislation. There are a number of fantastic training programs in Australia, operated through airlines themselves, and many of which some of you may have received as part of your career. But there are others which are inferior in quality, where training and minimum flight hours to obtain a pilots licence are not standardised. It is then up to the discretion of the airline who they employ and, given the corporate push to reduce costs and expenses, it’s not improbable to assume some airlines will go for the cheapest employee. The end result will be more pilots with minimal experience flying planes across Australia. That’s why it is crucial that appropriate standards are put in place now, before any disaster occurs. It’s also vital that standards of aircraft type and recurrent training are implemented, especially for pilots who do enter with low levels of experience. On 21 July 2007, a Jetstar Airbus A320-232 was being flown from Christchurch to Melbourne. Upon its approach into a foggy Melbourne, the pilot in command did not perform the go-around procedure correctly and, in the process, the crew were unaware that the aircraft was continuing to descend. The aircraft came within 38 feet of the ground before anyone realised. After re-climbing, the pilot then attempted to land a second time but this had to be diverted again due to the fog. The plane eventually landed safely at Avalon airport. Upon their return to New Zealand, the crew reported the incident to the airline operator, who took five days – five days – before reporting the incident to the Australian Transport Safety Bureau. It was later revealed, however, that the internal report given to the ATSB by the operator excluded key information which led to the authority determining that a formal investigation was not required. It was only after media reports some months later that the ATSB made further inquiries into the incident and discovered the withheld information. It seems the information given to the ATSB at first instance did not the whole story. The ATSB subsequently found that an investigation was required and its report was highly critical. Jetstar subsequently adopted Airbus’s standard procedures for go-arounds, and instigated a review of its third party training procedures. At the time, Jetstar’s General Manager of Safety was John Gissing, who is now the Executive Manager of Safety at Qantas. And the CEO of Jetstar at the time, Alan Joyce of course is now CEO of Qantas. The 21st July incident may not have seen the light of day, had it not been for third parties coming forward with information. You must ask the question, how many other incidents have not been reported and investigated because of flawed reporting protocols. We have to do whatever it takes to ensure we retain our reputation as a first-class aviation industry. Jetstar now has two Australian-registered planes based out of Singapore, with one of those planes due to be in service by the end of this year. The airline has recently advertised for 15 A-330 Captains and 23 A-330 First Officers to crew these planes. But the current proposal being put up would actually allow Jetstar to pool its pilot talent, enlisting pilots from across the world. While this seems reasonable at first glance, does it mean that pilots from overseas will be required to have the same standards and experience as Australian-based pilots? Professor Arnold Barnett, a leading expert on aviation safety at MIT’s Sloan School of Management, recently published a study on aviation safety records. He looked at accident risk in the air and found that over the period 2000 to 2007, the average worldwide passenger death risk per scheduled flight was 1 in 3 million. But the worldwide average reflects the actual risk level in few, if any countries. Narrowing this down, the study found that in first world nations, which includes Australia, the accident death risk per flight was found to be 1 in 14 million departures. Meanwhile, in advancing nations – which includes China, India, Malaysia, the Philippines, Singapore, Taiwan and Thailand – it’s a lot lower, at 1 in 2 million departures. In least developed nations, such as Indonesia and Vietnam, Professor Barnett says the risk of death is approximately 1 in 800,000 departures. I believe there is an urgent need for a Senate Inquiry into aviation training and standards in Australia, and I will move for that when the Senate resumes in two weeks’ time. I, for one, would like to see Alan Joyce and John Gissing tell a Senate Committee a little more about that July 21 incident and what happened in the days following. The other, more immediate, change I intend to push for when I return to Canberra, is an overhaul of reporting protocols in the Transport Safety Investigation Act. Flight crews should not be reporting to airlines, who then choose what to do with information and what information to provide to authorities. Some airlines could have a commercial incentive to downplay incidents and that is not good enough. That is why I will seek changes to require flight crews to report directly to aviation authorities. The bean counters shouldn’t decide what aviation authorities find out. In the United States, the reporting system is significantly different. There, the culture is geared much more towards encouraging pilots to report and discuss incidents, with this information used in training and to prevent future problems. Those who provide information to the FAA are indemnified from prosecution even if they were responsible for the incident. In contrast, here in Australia, pilots who speak out about incidents don’t have the same sorts of protections and a fear factor may stop some from coming forward. Quite simply, we have to change the way we do things, and go back to the sorts of practices that kept our skies safe for so long |
Was present for this speech and can say that I've never before seen a politician cover a special interest issue as comprehensively as this within a short timeframe. Perhaps there's hope for parliament yet.:ok:
The man clearly has the motivation to carry our banner forward and has a proven track record when it comes to knocking over idiotic ministerial policy (did it tickle Mr. Albanese?) Follow the leader. |
And from ABC Lateline Business (TV and Website) last night:
Pilot training program raises safety fears Australian Broadcasting Corporation Broadcast: 14/09/2010 Reporter: Karen Barlow Pilots have raised concerns that a pilot shortage may be putting the squeeze on training and jeopodising airline safety. Transcript LEIGH SALES, PRESENTER: Airlines say safety is their number one priority, but pilot training may be putting that at risk. The worldwide pilot shortage and low-cost airlines are putting the squeeze on carriers and pilots say that the pressures are being passed onto them. In the past few years, commercial co-pilots have been allowed to fly after just 200 hours in the air training experience, when previously they were required to clock up 1,000 hours. Pilots and the independent Senator Nick Xenophon say the aviation industry must learn from a number of serious recent incidents. Karen Barlow reports. KAREN BARLOW, REPORTER: In this Melbourne fog on July 21st, 2007, the pilots on a Jetstar A320 made a botched attempt to land. Alarms sounded in the cockpit as a plane came within 11-and-a-half metres of the tarmac before the landing was aborted. BARRY JACKSON, PILOTS ASSOCIATION: In this particular incident there was obviously a misunderstanding and it became fairly close to a fairly major tragedy. KAREN BARLOW: It was a routine emergency, but the two pilots were not trained properly on that particular aircraft. Jetstar didn't report the breach to the Australian Transport Safety Bureau until almost two months later. BARRY JACKSON: Basically those sort of incidents have to be reported within 48 hours and that wasn't done in this particular case. KAREN BARLOW: The ATSB was satisfied by Jetstar's explanation of the incident and the airline was never sanctioned. Jetstar today stands by its safety procedures. JETSTAR AIRWAYS, STATEMENT (female voiceover): "Jetstar has a proactive safety culture and as part of this we adhere to all ATSB reporting requirements." KAREN BARLOW: The Jetstar near miss concerns independent Senator Nick Xenophon and he wants a Senate inquiry into aviation training and safety standards. NICK XENOPHON, INDEPENDENT SENATOR: There are some unanswered questions there and I think if we want to look at systemic issues relating to air safety in this country, then we need to revisit what happened on 21st July, 2007. KAREN BARLOW: Pilots are wanted people. There's a world-wide shortage now and over the next 20 years, an extra 22,500 pilots will be needed. BARRY JACKSON: Well, airlines will try and fast-track their training, try and get them into the operational seat earlier then probably traditional-type training would involve. KAREN BARLOW: First officers or co-pilots are only required to have 200 hours of in-the-air training at Jetstar. That's down from an industry standard of at least 1,000 hours in the sky several years ago. Last year, United States legislators increased the minimum flight hours from 200 to 1,500 following a fatal crash. Investigators blame the crash on pilot error and poor training. In Australia Jetstar stands by its cadet pilot training program which began in June. JETSTAR AIRWAYS, STATEMENT (female voiceover): "The training programs offered by Oxford Aviation and CTC are what have been employed for decades by some of the world's leading airlines across Europe and Asia." KAREN BARLOW: Jetstar's main competitor Virgin Blue also trains its own pilots. VIRGIN BLUE GROUP OF AIRLINES, STATEMENT (male voiceover): "Our pilot training regimen is regularly benchmarked against international standards as part of our program of continuous improvements." KAREN BARLOW: Aviation is the still the safest form of transport in the world, especially in Australia. Industry experts say that reputation is always at risk from human error. DICK MACKERRAS, AVIATION CONSULTANT: There are a lot of pressures, financial pressures. The low-cost carrier model, which is now endemic around the world, puts a lot of financial pressure on organisations which they tend to transfer unfortunately to their pilots. BARRY JACKSON: We'd like to see a proper appraisal of where the industry is going because there is a line in the sand that we don't wanna be mourning passengers on a commercial jet in this country because it could have been avoided. KAREN BARLOW: The independent South Australian Senator will move for a Senate inquiry into the aviation industry when Parliament resumes in a fortnight. Karen Barlow, Lateline. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If beancounters think that pilots and training are expensive, they would be overwhelmed a thousand fold by the impact of a major accident. Clearly the momentum is building from many directions against this commercial madness - we need champions like Xeno to push to regulate it into oblivion - lets get behind him! |
Thank you Roller Merlin for showing that not even one of the more reputable news outlets can get their facts straight. The pressure on journalists to get their stories prepared for evening broadcast shows in the number of factual mistakes they make. :ugh:
the pilots on a Jetstar A320 made a botched attempt to land First officers or co-pilots are only required to have 200 hours of in-the-air training at Jetstar The trouble with the media, and more particularly television, is that it is driven by the sound bite. I have had recent experience of seeing what has happened when a reasonably long interview gets carved up for a news broadcast. A lot of points that you feel should be expressed wind up on the editing room floor (figuratively speaking in this digital age) and I suspect that is what happened last night. :( What Sen. Zenophon is trying to do is necessary but it needs to look at far more than just pilot training. The aviation industry in Australia is in a mess and it is getting worse. Pilot training is merely part of the problem. :sad: |
The thread isn't an attack on Jetstar flight standards. The thread is about companies employing people with less and less experience in order to save money. It could even be extended to other areas such as the farcical security measures or the ridiculous airport infrastructure.
Bigger fish to fry. |
from the atsb report;
Pilot in command Licence type Air Transport Pilot (Aeroplane) Licence (ATPL(A)) Total hours 6,500 hours (2,500 B717) Total hours on type 1,580 hours Copilot Licence type ATPL(A) Total hours 5,000 hours Total hours on type 500 hours i'm confused to why this incident is being associated with the low time pilot argument. |
i'm confused to why this incident is being associated with the low time pilot argument. |
Because it's symptomatic of poor training or systems knowledge.
A go-around isn't exactly a difficult procedure. TL's into TOGA detent, follow FD's and away you go. This Xenphon approach is exactly what's required an at just the right time, with J* looking to further dilute pilot skill levels by offshoring and employing the cheapest pilots they can find. Whilst pilot salaries etc are important, public safety is even more important. The Reason/Swiss Cheese model where the 'accident holes' are all starting to line up is very relevant here. The silly old 2 Airline policy might have been a cumbersome duopoly but at least the public was safe. Deregulation seems to have accompanied insufficient regulation of experience and safety levels. One hopes that the Colgan accident (plus the Garuda accident and the impact it had on Aussie passengers) will be all that is needed to convince pollies and the media that where a pilot has been trained and how many hours he has can have a direct impact on whether they see their kids that night. Sounds melodramatic but it's true. Good post Mr Hat and good luck Mr Xenophon. |
The Independent Senator is very well respected politician.
He has always endeavoured to present well researched POV into the political discussions. And he will stand up for a cause. Mike |
Here is the opportunity to get someone that has some real pull to speak on our behalf and we're getting defensive about this that and the other.:ugh:
Let me relieve you of your confusion. He used the incident to highlight that hull losses are real and can happen even though the concept is far from the Australian public's mind as that sort of thing doesn't happen here. He also used the example to highlight deficiency in the reporting culture. As in why would a company Red, Silver, Blue or Yellow dob itself in? Amazing, if you deleted the reference to the particular Airline and more specifically a possible critiscm of a pilot's actions it would be seen as a major boost to our cause. |
Hero
Nick is a hero for getting up speaking about where all of this headed.
Forge ahead Nick and pull those gready CEO's back into reality!:ok: |
Even better write him an email and give him some inside knowledge on what you have experienced in your time in the industry.
Nick Xenophon - Independent Senator for South Australia [email protected] |
BRAVO MODS!
IMHO, the most important "Sticky" in PPRuNE History. Mr Hat has hit the nail on the head equal. Experience, the lack of or even the amount, is sometimes difficult to quantify with respect to the accident statistics. What "Colgan" showed to the US people and the Senate is that if you constantly attack pilots wages and conditions you will end up with an inferior product, sometimes not shown in just hours in the logbook. Pilots worked to the absolute max. Pilots unable to afford to live in the city of their base. Pilots flying whilst unwell because they will suffer further financial hardship if they go sick! Pilots not having their minds on the job because of the previously mentioned factors! Pilots in cockpits that are only there because higher quality candidates walk away from the deals on offer shaking their heads! Airline Cadetships in this country ( with the exception of the previous QF) are becomeing fasionable because of one thing only, Cheap Labour! They will lead to the negative flightdeck environments we have seen in other countries so poisonous to overall airline saftey. The proposed Jetstar Cadetship is probably the most cynical and dangerous example of a management style gone completely out of control! Senator Xeonophon's startled observation that experience requirements haven't returned to pre 2007 levels is crucial in redressing this trend. It is vital that Australia follows American's lead. It won't be popular with some sectors, but it is the only way the profession, and overall airline standards will move back to where the travelling public rightfully expects it to be! |
Nick's words are indeed refreshing but I only hope they get acted upon. We are talking about politicians (Nick excluded in some ways as he's a 'real person') here so will take more than fancy words to have an impact on our flagging industry but it's a start:ok:. I have already contacted his office some time ago expressing my concerns when there was another link here amongst these pages to do so & I got a std reply which I guess is all anyone can expect back to just someone in the community such as mwah. Those of us that know/understand that std's have been falling for some time now can only wonder where it's all heading but to those that have no idea (Pollies in general) to them it's the way of the future, right or wrong we are in an industry that's changing fast due for no other reason than money, the cancer of our society. I do hope Nick has an impact he's at the very least concerned & at most our new GOD:ok:
Wmk2 |
Investigators blame the crash on pilot error and poor training. In Australia Jetstar stands by its cadet pilot training program which began in June. JETSTAR AIRWAYS, STATEMENT (female voiceover): "The training programs offered by Oxford Aviation and CTC are what have been employed for decades by some of the world's leading airlines across Europe and Asia." KAREN BARLOW: Jetstar's main competitor Virgin Blue also trains its own pilots. VIRGIN BLUE GROUP OF AIRLINES, STATEMENT (male voiceover): "Our pilot training regimen is regularly benchmarked against international standards as part of our program of continuous improvements." The Jetstar pilots in this incident were trainined by a sub contractor and paid for out of their own pocket. Let's not blurr CAR 217 CHECKING as 'in house training' 'cause it ain't, it is testing done on behalf of CASA to maintain our licenses. Maybe a full review of pilot training and checking is in order in this country |
Many of those who thought Xenophon a dill for opposing poker machines now think he's an intellectual for taking this stand. He's one or the other.
I understand when you're in a corner that you'll hang your hat on anything that seems to be favourable to your cause, but if not consistent, you are the ones who appear dills. |
We also need to ban former senior airline management from CASA regulatory and CEO positions. This is clearly a conflict of interest with the possibility of favours being done for former employers and mates.
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DM's involvement in this certainly is an interesting one... being one of the dictators of a C+T system, sorry regime... that had floors galore; and which in turn failed it's own pilots circa 2008 and the hard-landing occurence in DN. I find his comments intriguing, yet not surprising...
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Maybe a full review of pilot training and checking is in order in this country A pilot with minimal experience who has gone through an excellent training system may well be suitable as an F/O. The problem really lies with, which aviation company provides quality training, and just as important a quality check organization. With third party endorsements, less than ideal line training and the pseudo checking what chance would a pilot with low hours have. I used to believe that it was a fault within the company I was working for, now I sternly believe the entire Aus aviation industry is in a huge downward standards spiral, and it won't change until some poor bugger hits the bottom. I will be writing to the good senator and offering inside information. If nothing else, it will have the hairs on his head standing up. DM aviation consultant, hahahahahahahahaha:rolleyes: |
The Good Senator mentions QLink standards, well the first QANTAS Cadets taken in 2007/2008 are now getting commands and given positions as instructors in the sim.
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We also need to ban former senior airline management from CASA regulatory and CEO positions. This is clearly a conflict of interest with the possibility of favours being done for former employers and mates. Aviation needs an ongoing type of "Royal Commission", where witnesses appear, under oath, and tell the truth. It is said that a politician only calls for a Royal Commission when he knows what the outcome is going to be. At this hiatus in government, neither party has this luxury. Bring it on Mr Xenophon. |
The arguements regarding whether properly trained Cadets are better operators than experienced guys/girls off the street has been raging since Cadet programs were first introduced. you will never win or resolve that arguement, the variables are just too great. The US Congress knew that, and came to the conclusion (rightfully so in my opinion) that this whole situation is about the professionalism of airline pilots.
You cannot expect a consistant long term professional attitude from a person who earns less than the average wage, no matter how well he/she is trained. Financially poor pilots equal one thing, Lowering standards. There is only one reason Airlines in this country are trying to put inexperienced pilots into the flightdecks, Exploitation. If they had to pay Cadets a proper First Officers salary, then Cadetships of this nature would dissapear overnight. They would take experience over the long training process any day. Pay cadets a proper First Officers salary, and you won't get a gripe from me, but to do that would defeat the entire purpose of these scams in the first place! So what has Congress done to put the profession back on track, they've made airline pilots valuable again. Brilliant in it's simplicity, but a situation that should not have gone as far as it did in the first place, and something the Australian government and population at large need to realise! |
The good senator should ask Qlink (SSA / EAA) "How many stick shaker events have occurred since standards were lowered to 200 hrs. ?" "How many stick shaker events have occurred in the 3 years prior?" The cost cutting is not only affecting new recruits, but having an adverse effect on ongoing currency training.
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The good senator should ask Qlink (SSA / EAA) "How many stick shaker events have occurred since standards were lowered to 200 hrs. ?" "How many stick shaker events have occurred in the 3 years prior?" The cost cutting is not only affecting new recruits, but having an adverse effect on ongoing currency training. Barry Mundy wrote: The Good Senator mentions QLink standards, well the first QANTAS Cadets taken in 2007/2008 are now getting commands and given positions as instructors in the sim. So, Barry, if these cadets are so **** hot, why do they require more than twice the line training (as well as supplementary sim training), compared to an experienced pilot off the street? BECAUSE YOU CAN'T TRAIN EXPERIENCE. One day I might tell you the story about the cadet I had as an FO who had never flown in IMC... Who'd never flown in turbulence with his 150 hours.... And who withdrew support on a dark and stormy night and left me up **** creek as a single pilot with an unserviceable FO because he was frightened of the turbulence. Give me a break! No, I think I might make a submission to Nick Xenophon instead. Enjoy your time at Qantaslink. Rose-coloured glasses optional. |
So what has Congress done to put the profession back on track, they've made airline pilots valuable again. Brilliant in it's simplicity, but a situation that should not have gone as far as it did in the first place, and something the Australian government and population at large need to realise! |
Guys...
I've just been in contact with Senator Xenophon's office this afternoon. The word from him is for each and every one of you with a relevant point to make, to go ahead and prepare a submission for presentation at this public senate inquiry. If his push for this is successful, we should know within about two weeks, and the more experienced aviation professionals that take part in making their concerns known, the more impact it will have on the decision-makers. If you're concerned about keeping your identity covert, you are able to make anonymous submissions. The important thing here is to get the message across that we are ALL very concerned with the current situation, and it's way past time to start getting Australian aviation, and pilot training in particular, back on track, back on track now! Use that email address, stop whinging here and start making these points forcefully via the good senator, to this senate hearing. This is the best opportunity we've had to vent our collective concerns in an organized manner in 'living memory'! Go for it...:D EW73 |
Traditional cadet S/Os that get to take everything in for a few years is one thing, but cadets straight into the right seat is another all together.
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Totally agree glekichi. I think its the Direct Entry (zero to hero) Right hand seat that Nick Xenophon and others are getting a bit concerned about.
There are many other issues at stake here, this isn't a thread about cadets its a thread about the state of our industry. That includes everything from Air Traffic Controllers to the importation of workers from impoverished countries on lower conditions. All this purely for the sake of people travelling around the countryside at unsustainable ticket prices. Australia hasn't got the population of Europe the model doesn't work here, someones going to have a prang. If you can't afford to employ experienced/talented people and pay them properly you can't afford to be in business. What kind of industry avoids expertise in favour of naivety and inexperience for the purpose of lower wages. There's something really wrong going on here. |
[email protected]
Those with a story, experience and knowledge, take 2 minutes of your time and email the senator. Its up to us to make this industry better. Like I said 2 minutes of your time!:ok: |
Scare mongering about safety to push a wages agenda is one of the most irresponsible things you can do in this business. When not hiding behind usernames on PPrune most responsible professionals I know in the industry would agree. A story: I recently had installed a fairly sophisticated multi-zone ducted air-conditioning system in my house. The winning quote was from a gentleman who impressed me with his experience and knowledge, and provided a good quote. When installation day came, he didn't install it himself as I had naively expected, he sent a small team of 18yo clueless apprentices to do most of the work. It was a false economy - the system was very poorly installed and subsequently cost him a lot of money sending a more experienced employee to come and re-do a fair bit of the work. His "competitive" quote was obviously based on underpaid and undertrained employees performing the installation. This is what we are talking about - except that in aviation, undertrained monkeys can cost hundreds of lives. The industry's push for lower wages will ultimately end up with lower training and experience standards unless someone like Sen. Xenophon stands up and promotes regulation to prevent it. Bring on 1500 hrs min RPT, and stop the rot of outsourced training to the lowest bidder and offshore crewing. Make the airlines train their crew properly and be held accountable for the standards. And no "pilot shortage" excuses for reduced standards. There won't be a pilot shortage if the wages are appropriate and hence encourage school leavers to enter the industry. Lawyers are still paid well and I haven't seen any "lawyer shortage" headlines in the press. 20 years ago I would have encouraged my children to become pilots. With the current state of the industry in this country, they'll be standing in the corner for an hour if they even suggest the idea. |
Gidday Lester', have another read of my post. Financially poor pilots (cadets or otherwise) will result in lower standards. This is becoming apparent around the world, and the American public were shocked so much that significant changes are being made to the "VALUE" of their airline pilots. I know REX pay their graduated cadets the standard REX F/O wage, but lets face it, it's still well below the national average.
Have a look at the Jetstar Cadet deal, because this is the one that brings the bar down to a whole new level. $180K + Interest! Salary sacrificed over 6 years on a base of $50K! End result-A gross annual salary of approx $23K P/A for a potentially hopelessly in debt A320 First Officer!!! Would you feel safe down the back? :sad: |
Exactly, would you feel safe traveling with an FO who has his/her mind filled with stress about where his/her next rent payment is going to come from, and then a capt who is stressed because he is flying single pilot because his underpaid FO can't keep his mind on the job?
There is only one reason why AJ and BB are trying desperately to lower wages, because low cost models don't work on standard cost structures. Maybe in Europe with huge population base and where an airport pays the low cost operator to fly in to their ex military base. |
Bring on an inquiry. It will just show a low hr pilot and a high hr pilot in the Right seat (I emphasis RIGHT), for the most part, means nothing. It just comes down on the day to how good each of their training has been. |
Here is the article in today's Australian by Steve Creedy
Xenophon takes aim at airline standards in a bid to stop the rot on training levels | The Australian Steve Creedy From:The Australian | The Australian Homepage | TheAustralian September 17, 2010 12:00AM http://resources2.news.com.au/images...k-xenophon.jpg South Australian Independent Senator Nick Xenophon at a doorstop at Parliament House in Canberra today. Picture: Ray Strange Source: The Australian INDEPENDENT senator Nick Xenophon will push for an urgent Senate inquiry into Australian aviation training and standards. This comes after a warning of a "race to the bottom" that has seen required flying experience for airline pilots plummet. Senator Xenophon also called for Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce and the airline's head of safety, John Gissing, to appear before a Senate committee to explain the circumstances behind a 2007 Jetstar incident in Melbourne. The calls, made in a hard-hitting speech to a Qantas pilots union dinner in Sydney this week, come as some aviators have expressed concern about outsourced training programs that airlines say are essential to keep up the supply of new pilots. Senator Xenophon said he was shocked to learn that the 2007 pilots shortage had seen required flight hours for new pilots at QantasLink drop from 1000 hours to 200 hours. He compared this to legislation passed last month in the US requiring commercial airline pilots to have a minimum of 1500 hours and appropriate operational experience. The legislation was introduced after US air safety investigators found pilot error and poor training contributed to a fatal accident involving a Continental Connection Bombardier Q400 turboprop near Buffalo, New York last year. It found the captain did not have a good foundation in altitude instrument flying skills and his continued weakness in basic aircraft control and instrument flying were not identified. "Historically, pilots were required to have a minimum of 1000 to 1500 hours of flying experience before they could get into the co-pilot's seat for a regional carrier," Senator Xenophon said. "But this standard is slipping, with many companies now thinking more about how they can fast-track pilots. "When passengers buy their airline ticket, do you think they realise that, in some cases, the plane might be flown by someone with as little as 200 hours of experience?" The South Australian independent said there needed to be an urgent review of current standards for flight experience in light of the US legislation. Also in Senator Xenophon's sights are changes to reporting protocols in the Transport Safety Investigations Act so that flight crews reported incidents to aviation authorities rather than airlines. This was in response to a July 2007 incident in which a pilot botched a go-around and the crew was unaware the aircraft, which came within 38ft of the ground, was continuing to sink. The flight crew reported the incident to Jetstar but it took five days to report it to the Australian Transport Safety Bureau and excluded key information. As a result, the ATSB decided not to investigate but changed its mind some months later after media reports highlighted the seriousness of the incident. "Flight crews should not be reporting to airlines who then choose what to do with information and what information to provide to authorities," he said. "Some airlines could have a commercial incentive to downplay incidents." Other issues canvassed in the speech included industry rates of pay. Senator Xenophon pointed to comments by USAirways "Miracle on the Hudson" hero Captain Chesley Sullenberger that his pay had been cut by 40 per cent and his pension terminated. He had also been surprised to find the co-pilot in the Buffalo crash had been paid between $US16,000 and $US20,000. "With the pay so low, the industry will never attract the best talent," he said. "We're not there yet in Australia, but I believe it's safe to say the race to the bottom has begun. Low-cost carriers have introduced pay-for-training models where prospective pilots can pay up to $150,000 to gain their commercial jet licence without any guarantee of employment at the end of their training." The speech received a rousing response from pilots at the Australian and International Pilots Association annual dinner but was less warmly received by Jetstar and the aviation regulator. Jetstar, which runs a cadet pilot scheme in conjunction with training organisations CTC Aviation Group and Oxford Aviation Academy Group, defended its training and safety management systems as robust. It said its cadet pilots received 1000 hours of training and close supervisory flying followed by 18 months of further supervision. This was a conservative approach, with cadet entrants receiving about twice as much training as industry norms. Those at CTC and Oxford Aviation received a combination of 185 hours flying time, 100 hours in simulators and 55 weeks' theoretical training. Jetstar added to this 220 hours of combined simulator sessions, simulator acceptance training and line training. Those who passed this process then did a further 500 hours flying with an experienced captain. Jetstar chief pilot Mark Rindfleish said CTC and Oxford Aviation had been providing training for airlines, including British Airways, since the 1960s and while the Jetstar program had been a first for Australia, it was common overseas. Captain Rindfleish said recruits were closely monitored. "The actual reporting functions in terms of the pilots' standards, and the improving standards or decreasing standards, is probably as good as anywhere," he said. "So we've got great capability when we get people into the business to watch them improve. And, of course, if they're not improving we've got the capability to go and put more training into where it needs to go. "Certainly we can tell very quickly if people are heading towards a state where they may not be proficient and act on it before it gets to that stage." The Jetstar executive acknowledged there were strong opinions among pilots about training systems. While there was some advantages of employing someone with 1500 hours who had worked for a number of different airlines on a number of jobs, someone taken from an early age would know Jetstar's policies and procedures, and could be watched throughout their training. "It will continue to be a debate," he said. "We're not suggesting we'll stop taking people who have the other experience as well, but if we don't start generating the capability for people to get these other types of qualification then we'll rapidly denude the place of the other types of pilots, the GA guys. They're just not coming up at the speed at which we're going to need pilots." The Civil Aviation Safety Authority, which sets requirements for pilot licences, said Australian rules were in line with most other parts of the world and were now based on pilots demonstrating competency. It said a co-pilot must have, as a minimum, a commercial pilot licence, which requires 150 hours' flight time if a pilot goes through an integrated syllabus or 200 hours in other cases. They must also obtain an instrument rating and type endorsement for the aircraft type to be flown. "While flying hours are a part of the qualifications co-pilots for airlines must have, the key to advancing to the position of co-pilot is demonstrating the required competencies in a wide range of areas, including technical flying skills, decision-making, navigation," a spokesman said. Related Coverage PILOTS angry about changes to flying at Jetstar | The Australian The Australian, 19 Aug 2010 Jetstar's pilot push under fire: Qantas pilots union | The Australian The Australian, 22 Jul 2010 Jetstar's cadet pilot program to attract thousands | The Australian The Australian, 3 Jun 2010 Jetstar malfunction link to Air France Atlantic crash | News.com.au NEWS.com.au, 3 Nov 2009 US pilots 'were working on laptops' | The Australian The Australian, 26 Oct 2009 |
Nobody has yet addressed the underlying problem that you need to have a functioning GA sector to provide the 1500 hrs min. The GA sector in Australia is fairly limited (and poorly paid.
Perhaps there needs to be more incentives by way of infrastructure/facilities such as common user terminals at small airports - to enourage the sector. There needs to be a clearer progression for guys to get the 1500 hrs and then move up - perhaps the airlines should be forced to partner with charter/tourism operators - push the training standards down from the top to improve the bottom? Airlines provide check and training for smaller operators... |
All,
Show Senator Xenophon that we applaud and support his courage and hard work. Please send him an email of support as I have just done so we can turn this safety-rot around. His email address is on his website. We do not want a Colgan-air style crash on our watch. Cheers, PG |
The day Aviation changed in Australia?
The Senator needs to speak to some of the turbo prop pilots around the country (thats you REX and Skippers etc drivers). Even some jet guys could shed some light on wages and conditions. Training wages, bonds, upfront endorsement costs. Low wages in disguise.
Have to say the first line is just brilliant. "With the pay so low, the industry will never attract the best talent," he said. "We're not there yet in Australia, but I believe it's safe to say the race to the bottom has begun. Low-cost carriers have introduced pay-for-training models where prospective pilots can pay up to $150,000 to gain their commercial jet licence without any guarantee of employment at the end of their training." |
"We're not suggesting we'll stop taking people who have the other experience as well, but if we don't start generating the capability for people to get these other types of qualification then we'll rapidly denude the place of the other types of pilots, the GA guys. They're just not coming up at the speed at which we're going to need pilots." |
They may crow until the cows come home that the reason they (in this case J*) are offering cadetships is because of a looming pilot shortage. If this was true then they would be offering these cadetships on the same terms as existing pilots. The very fact they are offering them on greatly reduced terms highlights the real motive behind them and it has nothing to do with any mythical pilot shortage in Australia. It has everything to do with slashing terms and conditions by entrapping starry eyed wannabes with no aviation experience who through no fault of their own don’t know any better.
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It cracks me up how Bruce Buchanan in his recent interview quoted with conviction that they needed to be competitive with the Asian salaries! Most of the Asian carriers insist on hiring EXPERIENCED operators and paying them very handsome salaries hence I'm guessing the impending "pilot shortage" it's obvious the shortage will be driven from Asia offering high salaries that will drain the Aussie experience and benefit the safety of the Asian carriers. AJ and BB's answer to that is inexperience? WTF? Do these guys actually know the industry? The key to bottom line in this industry is safety. Safety unfortunately cost money. Pay the money and pilots will not leave for Asian jobs and the won't be the "pilot shortage" hiring cadets and paying Shyte may be good for the bottom line now but the "pilot shortage" will soon take care of those cadets as they'll chase the big bucks to make good on their return on investment. Cadets won't solve the pilot shortage, treating your employees with respect and creating an environment where upon the employee wont want to leave solves a pilot shortage. Why has Qantas been so successful over the years? Safety, risk that and you don't have a product in this game.
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