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Turboprops for Virgin Blue?????
The Jan/Feb issue of Australian Aviation has an interview with Brett. A few times in the article turbprops come up (ATRs and Q400s), plus a statement saying 'watch this space' regarding a regional expansion . He also says that the Embraers are not really regional aircraft and they haven't fully deployed them properly. Plus they are operating them into markets that are not ideal for the them, they should be on long thin routes and the 190's shouldn't be doing anything under 1.5 to 2 hours. Also mentions SYD-CBR and how they would like to increase the frequency but doesn't want to put to many jets on it.
So will we see ATRs or Q400s in DJ's colours? ATR have their new -600 aircraft on the market and would be very keen to have it operating in Australia. |
Hmmm...:E;)
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Well he does have a point that jets are more economical around 2hrs and TP on shorter routes
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Turboprops for Virgin Blue????? |
Oh God!
I hope not. :suspect: |
On the bright side if Virgin get into the regional turboprop game, REX better lift it's conditions else KRUSTY will be the last man standing :}
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That's of course if they decide to compete with REX G.G?
Personally I can't see it. The Regionals are profitable, REX because of their agressive program of debt minimisation, QLink because of their economies of scale, but most of all due to the virtual monopolies enjoyed by these carriers over 90% of their routes. The monopolies aside though, both these carriers have manged to make Regional flying approx 50% cheaper than what it was a decade ago. This has been through some competition on a few sectors, but mainly because of a rationalisation of the previous route structures. Many Regional centres have lost their air service simply because they were marginal. I mean Hell, REX wouldn't still be in QLD if the routes weren't subsidised! Profitable as they are however, the margins are still thin. For an operator to effectively compete, a substantial capital outlay would be required for what would be at best a 5% P/A return on investment? If VB do intend to compete, then as well as the issues mentioned above, there is the problem of crewing. Most REX pilots (other than the Cadets of course) would probably move for a Jet job, but to go sideways? Anyway the major airlines (VB included) will probably be focused on recruiting the last available experienced pilots for mainline. My sources tell me that VB will be looking for at least 110 pilots by April, and Jetstar quite a few more than that before the end of the year! No point starting a Regional airline if you can't get pilots to fly it. The logical choice (if you can call any of this logical) would be, as Red Jet alluded, for VB to buy REX. That would be interesting. You never know Red Jet, they may offer you a DEC. At least your pay would go up. :ok: |
What about the WA Coastal Network contract???
Maybe VB are looking at bidding for the WA coastal network? Have Skywest got it in the bag yet? Nice new Q400's or ATR's vs outdated F50's... I know what I'd prefer :ok:
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Yes they (Skywest) have, announced earlier in the year, to arrange a new 5-year contract to allow them to upgrade their fleet...
On the E190's the WA network is perfect then, lots of long, thin routes - ZNE, KTA, PHE and BME |
Along a similar train of thought...any truth to the rumour Qlink is getting CRJ900's??
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VB to buy Rex
It would make a lot of sense for VB to acquire Rex, and run all E-jets and turboprops under the Rex AOC. Fewer people would leave and there would be a more interesting career path for the Rex crews.
At the same time it would make some sense to get some of the Rex management into VB. They may not be the most popular guys with the crews, but they sure have made a difference in the survival, growth and profitability of Rex. |
Err, Timber:
Why would VB buy Rex and take the risk (and expense) of buying REX and its old aeroplanes, when they could simply take them on as a partner with less risk? And why would/should they operate the E-Jets on the Rex AOC, when Rex doesn't have the required high capacity AOC, and VB are doing fine with them right where they are in-house? And finally, why would VB take on REX management following a takeover? I'd imagine that they'd be surplus to requirements if VB were ever crazy enough to buy REX. Historically, duplicated/redundant management are the first to go in a takeover/buyout. It would be more cost efficient for VB to set up their own turboprop operation with a type that is current - not a type that has not been produced for 11 years. Sgt. Schultz: If QL get CRJ-900's, my money is on Cobham operating them. They are the QLink jet operator. Apologies if this shatters a few fantasies:ugh: |
Couldn't think anything worse than VB buying REX.
I could write a thesis on why that would be a bad idea. I didn't know skywest got back the 5 year contract. Wonder what the plans are regarding the fleet upgrade. Sounds like exciting times with A320's rolling in and fleet upgrades. Either way I'll believe the turbo prop story when i see it. What it will do apart from cutting the guts out of the existing regionals will be basically to take the pilots that would have originally gone to the rex qlink ect. |
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Media statement Release date: 30/6/2009 Transport Minister Simon O’Brien has announced that regional Western Australia will be guaranteed regular passenger air services. Mr O’Brien said the State Government believed it more important to put regional WA’s need for regular passenger air services ahead of wholesale deregulation of intrastate air routes. “Securing air routes for regional communities, which may have lost their regular passenger services if deregulation was allowed to proceed, is the government’s main priority,” he said. “Airlines around the world and domestically are struggling; for example, since 1960, 43 WA based regular passenger transport airlines have collapsed. Deregulating the system in the current environment does not secure the best outcome for regional WA. “The airline industry is in a delicate state, it needs certainty where presently there is uncertainty.” The Minister said he offered the two existing main regional network operators, Skywest and Skippers Aviation 12-month extensions while arrangements for long-term contracts were negotiated and both companies had accepted this proposal. “I will immediately set about working with the aviation sector to negotiate appropriate long-term arrangements that will give airlines and passengers the security and certainty they need for the future,” he said. “The way to guarantee future services will be to give airlines the long-term certainty they need to invest in new aircraft and other infrastructure.” The Minister said as soon as long-term arrangements had been agreed, the 12-month extension would be annulled, with the new arrangements beginning immediately. “What is essential though is that Western Australian air service providers have the long term stability to provide even better services,” Mr O’Brien said. “In the coming months I will be visiting those communities for whom regular air services are a vital link. “This will enable me to take soundings and seek feedback on what additional service levels and standards regional communities would like to see improved upon as the State Government negotiates long term contract arrangement with regional air service providers.” ------------------ |
HJ
Rex is a very profitable unit with a very low cost base. Partner is fine but VB didn't elect that route for VA either.
There is nothing wrong with the Saabs for the work they do. It would be easy for Rex to get a high capacity AOC and thus the cost base for the "little" aircraft (E-jets) could be brought down in time. Re the management I wasn't thinking of adding some of the Rex people but rather replacing some of the VB managers, so no duplication intended. The future is further cost reductions. That would be the role of Rex for the V-group. Just like J* is the low cost arm of QF and eventually a new entity will become the low cost arm of J*. Lowering the cost base all the time... lower and lower. A bit rough this .... sorry. |
Just avoid the Metro's please DJ had enufffffffffff
:ouch: |
If VB do intend to compete, then as well as the issues mentioned above, there is the problem of crewing. Most REX pilots (other than the Cadets of course) would probably move for a Jet job, but to go sideways? Anyway the major airlines (VB included) will probably be focused on recruiting the last available experienced pilots for mainline. Interestingly, heard a dirrrrrrty rumour that ATR72 was added to the AOC last week. |
Hi Jarse
Hope they are treating you well there. Q400 would be the logical choice with plenty of VB staff previously CASA approved for SIM and check and training (we miss them).Also ready made crew at their competitor now the retention has been paid and crew spivved again and ready to walk and hopefully proper progression. He at no 42 has told us they are definately looking at jet equipment however 717 doesnt come off lease until 2016 with Cobham contract due around the same time so now they have paid the retention bonus they are now holding the regional jet carrot in front of us again. After 12 years its wears a bit thin. |
Been in this game very long have we bagchucka?
And what sort of pilots are they? |
Slight thread drift, but where do REX have pilot bases?
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Let me see Wiz'. North to South, East to West.
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Gidday Vigi. Hope all's going well with you.
I understand they've spivved you all on the super guarantee? I've said all along they'd do anything to get out of paying any of the bonus to you guys, and it seems I was correct. :yuk: Never mind, recruiting in other airlines is stepping up this year apparently, so expect a lot of your colleagues from the Link and Rex to be called up for interviews. Just remember, (as I wrote before) - the clause which was thrown in to the Sunnies EBA was a diversion to entice the guys (a sweetener, if you will) to sign off on what was otherwise a ****ty EBA. The only reason it's in there is to be used as a lever against Cobham when the contract is next up for renewal. Purely to keep the Qantaslink Cobham jet contract lean, if you know what I mean. They have no intention of changing the preferred jet operator. That would require the expenditure of funds. Remember how tight they were about even spending the money to put the Q400 on the EAA AOC? Have they done that yet, or is it still on Sunnies AOC only? Fat Bastard wins both ways with that EBA clause: He keeps Sunnies and Eastern pilots happy in the romantic notion that they'll get jets (and some guys will wait around in the foolish belief that this will eventuate), while he sneaks off to the negotiating table with Cobham in a couple of years, and says "our guys at Eastern and Sunnies can do it cheaper". :hmm::suspect: Of course, Cobham will sharpen their pencils as much as they can, and who knows - they'll probably pull it off. But I feel sorry for the Cobham crew that will be put under yet again more pressure financially.:ugh: My money's on Cobham for a leaner contract, and you guys are left to languish yet again in the deception that is the Institution at Number 42.:hmm: Keep this in mind, mate :) You guys deserve better. JARSE! |
Hi Jarse
My bank account went up today:ok: T&b |
Krusty and the like, why does DJ need REX? DJ have a AOC, have been operating in Australia for almost 10 years and during the last 18 months have added a few regional ports, so their is no advantage in buying REX. Plus don't forget Branson got burnt when he purchased the European operated he used to set up Virgin Express and said he would never buy another airline outright again (to much baggage).
And why do you say it would be a side ways move for the REX pilots if DJ got turboprops? I see it has a step up for those REX pilots who would join DJ, as they would be operating larger equipment (with better pay) with a career path to jets. It would be like the old days at Ansett and TAA, new guys join on the turboprop and work their way through the system. Turboprops would fill in many dots for DJ such as Dubbo,Tamworth, Bundy, Gladstone, Devonport the list goes on and on. They could also replace/ supplement the E-jets into Coffs and Port ie they could start overnighting there, thus giving Qlink a run for their money. The E-jets could then be used on routes such as SYD - ASP, SYD -AYQ, BNE -ASP, BNE -AYQ, ADL -ASP -DRW and PER- ASP -CNS. I just had a look at the ATR -600 on their web page, it looks like it will give the Q400 a run and the flight deck looks pretty flash (all glass now). If Qlink are looking at jets again the 'C' series looks like a good machine. |
Gidday GAFA.
I never said DJ need REX. I said due to the high startup costs and the thin margins, it would probably be the most logical thing to do. In fact I'm not convinced it would be better for the crews if REX were to be taken over. Hense my statement in post #5. I think DJ have enough to worry about with a mixed domestic fleet as it is. Not to mention an International carrier (setting new benchmarks in the lowering of pilot T&C's) that has yet to turn a profit, and will probably be sometime in doing so! And they now want to start a regional. I just don't buy it. I would love to see DJ offer a real career path for pilots. Regional Turbo-prop to Domestic Jet to International widebody. Not only would that help to invigorate the profession, but in my mind would make perfect corporate sense. Give people long term goals within the corporate structure, and at the same time take the finite resource of experienced pilots from your competitors. Do you think it will happen like that? Not a snowball's mate! Just have a look at the track record. If your view of better pay and a career path becomes a reality, then REX, QFlink, and the like will bleed, and bleed badly. However when you consider that a QFlink line Captain earns more than a VOZ F/O, I feel a significant shift in thinking from the Ivory Tower brigade just might be in order. Do you honestly think that's going to happen? |
Been in this game very long have we bagchucka? And what sort of pilots are they? |
I see it has a step up for those REX pilots who would join DJ, as they would be operating larger equipment (with better pay) with a career path to jets. As far as being a step up we'd have to see what the conditions are, how much will they pay? If the pay is the same to fly an ATR on a fatigue based rostering system it would be a backwards step. To simply say a bigger aircraft is career progression is misguided. I think VB management have admitted that they were very naive to buy into regional jets in the hope to break into the regional markets already serviced by well established turboprop operators. For BG to make the comments he has reflects this and now they have to come up with an alternate plan of attack involving turboprops to compete. |
My two bobs worth,
Turboprops for VB regional........maybe.....and that's a BIG maybe. As mentioned the EMB's haven't been the money spinner that the ivory tower thought they were going to be. I would think that the introduction of turboprops would also see the downscaling of the EMB ops, so there probably wouldn't be a huge net gain in pilot positions. As for progression, well thats anyones guess. The new turboprop company would probably be an independant company under the VB umbrella, just like VAus. Progression from VB into VAus has been about as exciting as a visit to your local proctologist. I hear there is dissent amongst the ranks in V due to no foreseeable upgrades right across the ranks. They are going to need to sort that one out. So I cant see the 'holy grail' of seemless progression from an FO on a turboprop to CMD on a 777 ever being an eventuality. I'm sure the the company will tell you that this will be an option in order to get you to sign up, but I would want it in black and white in an EBA before I believed it. Have you ever noticed when you get home from shopping and cook up those nice looking carrots, they're real bitter, and you throw them out. |
You're forgetting about the hireing by the majors 'Chucka.
When REX went looking to replenish their loses 2 years ago they were in for a rude shock. Insulated from the realities of the past decade, they found out the hard way the inexorable decline in people learning to fly had resulted in "Experienced" pilots becomeing a finite resource. They even used the unstable situation in South Africa to recruit from overseas! G/A is like a recovering trauma patient. In fact crewing wise, so is REX! The resurgence in interest in learning to fly, no doubt fuelled by the feeding frenzy of the larger carriers, went some way to filling the vaccum, but has it been enough? There may be an increased number of pilots with "...plenty of hours and good experience.", but will they go to QFlink, REX, or even DJ Regional! Will they settle for $44K P/A? Are there enough of them to satisfy the demand? What then happens to G/A? Lots of questions 'Chucka. As for "...giving their left cajone for a gig...", the REX cadets probably thought that way. Many are now not so sure!:= P.S No Idea Either. Spot on IMHO! |
Read an interview with BG a few years back where he said that that VB looked at turboprops but the economics were horrendous. I doubt that much has changed in 2-3 years.
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An extract from an artical just over 2 years ago regarding QLinks aquistion of more Q400 aircraft:
But Virgin Blue believes that the Qantas operated turbo-props will be no match for its new generation E-jets, which offer much wider seats and more legroom than on all other domestically operated aircraft. "We believe our E-jets will compete very well with their turbo-prop competitors, " said Heather Jeffery, Virgin's head of corporate affairs, in response to the Qantas Q400 deal. Brett Godfrey, her boss and chief executive of Virgin Blue, was far more forthcoming in an interview last month with BusinessDaily. "Where people have to make a choice they will prefer to fly on jets than on turbo-prop planes," he said. Read an interview with BG a few years back where he said that that VB looked at turboprops but the economics were horrendous. |
:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:
Would anyone atleast care look on CASA under the AOC section. If someone cared to look you will see NO ATR72's on the AOC, dirty rumour . :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: |
Skystar320
Not sure if the AOC you found on the CASA website is the same as the one I found by searching under 'operators', but it seems to be dated 16 September 2009 and at least 5 of the current fleet (VUR,VUS,VUT,ZPN,ZPO) are also missing from the list. bagchucka's rumour suggested the type additions occured 'last week' (as at the 14 January 2010), so I would assume an updated AOC would be necessary for the mythbusters to claim 'BUSTED' |
Just to clear things up, coz its getting messy here, are you saying that REX is going to get ATR72's or not. This rumour has been around for a few years that I know of so, what is the source of this rumour. I must admit, it would be realy good for REX employees if that was the case. What is the strength of your rumour??:confused::confused:
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Would anyone atleast care look on CASA under the AOC section. If someone cared to look you will see NO ATR72's on the AOC, dirty rumour . If you look under the ATO section, at least 3 of the ATOs listed therein are dead and one of them for nearly 5 years. If I ran my manual suite like CASA ran theirs.... :ugh: |
I know some of the ex Macair ATR guys would be glad if VB started operating the type, if they got a gurnsey that is. A couple of them had 72 experience o/s and said they were very efficient, pax and accountants loved them.
FFS in NZ now as well. |
'pax..loved them' and pilots did too because the touchdown was smooth with the trailing link undercarriage. Not so sure about the accountants until the early engineering bugs had been got used to. Most of the time if you had a 'spike' in a system you pulled and reset a circuit breaker and it went away. Pretty advanced for its time back in the mid and late '80's. Air Queensland (Bushy's) operated two 42-300's themselves up and down the Qld coast and leased the other two to Air Pacific. When those came back from lease they got out of them. Air Pacific were happy with their two new ones delivered from late '88, running them to closer in regional ports from Fiji and were going to get more of them, until mid '92 when they did a u-turn on a new 5 year plan and went all jet with a 737-500 that could also go to Wellington. The airconditioning was good too, even without an APU on the ground, although it used to startle some pax with the copious amounts of fog sometimes in the tropical humid areas.
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It's a great machine until it flies into icing :}
Give me a Dash any day |
Any machine flies into icing above 15,000 feet in the tropics, and the supercooled raindrops are big too.. Sure, ATR's pick up ice, just like any aircraft, and with the best cruise levels around 21,000 - 22,000 (maximum 25,000, but not really a proposition in a heavy 300 because she struggles) you have to trade altitude to recover speed for safety. Only operated in the tropics, where the freezing level was high, so can't speak for the colder climes with the FL on the ground, but they went well up there with anti-ice and de-ice protection. The cousins in NZ with their later models and 72's would know more about the abilities in ice down low. If you havn't flown them, don't criticise them, as you are probably only repeating someone elses predjudices.
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The early ATR had a problem due to ice build up behind the wing boots, very well known accidents in the US. However the boots were redesigned and now the aircraft has no more problems with icing than any other turboprop, dash included.
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