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(note the person on another PPRuNe forum with minimal experience seeking advice whether after 4 yrs with AsA, they have enough experience to be hired overseas?) Start These people actually want you to work for them. |
Now Your talking Owen
Smartest post yet !!
Once you gain all the necessary paperwork, then go back to your Doctor and have a 'breakdown' in the surgery. Its worth shedding a few tears to gain stress leave.3 Months is a good strating point. Make sure you also advise the Doctor that you are being harrassed,coerced,pressured and treated unfairly ! It doesnt finish there. Time to visit the best Lawyer you can find, as a group of course, and launch a case against the buffoons,beancounters and incompetent footstools putting Controllers and the Publlics lives at risk.......... |
for most of the guys and girls it is not about the money. |
Made the news again
Airservices, staff on collision course | The Australian
The article is more "pro-controllers" at least (despite the claims at the end that you've got enough controllers). DIVOSH! |
Just over 10 years ago we had 2 (two) people in the PR department. See Annnual Reports , we now have @ 50 in Corporate Relations.
We have around 30 Approach controllers in Sydney. More spin doctors than SY approach controllers. You know it makes sense! Airlines carry staff on reserve, ASA don't. Why? Because we don't have them and never have. ASA and its predecessors have always relied on controllers giving up THEIR rostered days off (RDOs) to fill holes . These holes used to be due to illness. Increasingly over the last few years, rosters are written with the holes already in them due to lack of staff. The Sunday in question was an occurence when ASA were unable to fill the holes. There would have been alot more days like these, if controllers weren't continually giving up THEIR DAYS OFF to cover for a chronic lack of workforce planning. What does ASA do when the 'holes in the cheese line up'. You must get some value out of the huge PR machine that they have created over the years,so they insinuate that it was somehow the fault of the controllers. ASA don't have enough controllers, they can spin it anyway they like (and they do) but the fact remains. |
I'd find it very stressful being told planned holidays with my family had just been cancelled because the company I worked for was incompetent.
So stressful I might see a doctor about it.... right now as it would already being affecting me. I'll do as many holding patterns as it takes for you guys to stick it to ASA for this method they are employing. It shows the thought patterns of the @##$%^ running ASA. A Labor party should be appalled at this intimidation. |
MEMO TO STAFF:
The floggings will continue until morale improves!:} |
blow.n.gasket: MEMO TO STAFF: The floggings will continue until morale improves!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...s/badteeth.gif Should be funny....but far too true ozbiggles: I'd fined it very stressful being told planned holidays with my family had just been cancelled because the company I worked for was incompetent. It's not just the stress of losing a much needed break from shiftwork, imagine the stress (whether anger or disappointment) from the family. Regardless of whether they kick and scream with anger/frustration or just sadly try to say "that's ok Mum/Dad" it's still a horrible thing to have to go home to tell your partner/kids (ask the Willy controllers who had their Christmas leave cancelled with only days' notice last year). I don't have stats in front of me, but, anecdotally, the divorce/relationship breakdown rate for ASA and RAAF ATCs seems huge. Way above the 50% nat average. And as Le Pinguoin pointed out - at the end of the 3 months what will have changed? The only guarantee is that there will be a more fatigued work force and a huge leave debt on their cards - which they still will have difficulty taking! :ugh: Last Christmas (literally, even on Christmas Eve) RAAFies were getting phone calls left, right and centre saying "come to Syd - your choice of TWR or APP, just need you in Syd ASAP" - some had already been offered enroute short courses (one I know of was due to start on Jan 6 and on Dec 24 they're calling not once, but 5, say again 5 times to push SYD. Some, who hadn't even been made an offer yet (which meant, of course, that they hadn't resigned) received the same SYD offer in the week leading up to Christmas - even though it would have been impossible to resign over the reduced activity period with 13 days notice! So it was obvious that they were desperate to recruit experienced ATCOs to Syd. Lots of pressure from recruiting - but no sweetner of course! :ugh: Laws of supply and demand ASA - make a better offer, whether it's more money, extra leave (not that you'd get to take it), housing allowance, free lap dances in the crew room whatever! |
Irony??
Spotted this on seek.com, posted today;
SEEK jobs database and employment advice Not only but also; SEEK jobs database and employment advice Does this mean someone has awoken from their slumber? I am not involved in your side of the industry, but I certainly support your attempts for fairer rostering, increased staffing, etc, etc. Your work is just a tad important!! I want a controller who is, a) professional and, b) awake when I fly. And as for sitting in holding patterns ad-nauseum, I hope Virgin can also help crack the whip to those at ASA in regard to the true $$ cost and disruption these shortages cause to the airlines and travelling public. We all deserve better! |
Does this mean someone has awoken from their slumber? |
10 to 1 they won't want to deal with those smelly controllers & will just want to present their solution, take it or leave it.
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recreation leave had been cancelled for all staff from Saturday to "enhance our service continuity capability and allow time for Airservices to investigate other options". Sadly just as relevant today as it was last year and the year before and the year before that. |
Strong rumour has it that RL's 'request' to be tranferred to Perth has been fast-tracked, and that the new Sydney manager will be expedited from the UK - starting within weeks. That will be interesting - UK manager versus entrenched Sydney controllers!
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does anyone really believe that the situation
A) was created by the immediate manger OR B) can be solved by aforemention manager?? As I've been saying for ages - it's all about the decreasing number of ATC's and the increasing reliance on overtime - AsA needs to fix one of these problems, and preferably BOTH. |
If its not one thing its another!
ACARS mode: S Aircraft reg: .VH-VWU Message label: 1L Block id: 1 Msg. no: M09A Flight id: JQ0420 Message content:- JQ420 91 MIN DELAYDUE STORMS SYDNEY. -------------------------------------[22/09/2009 20:41] |
got mate said b737 from nz QF went to wlm due turb and also qf 737 to cfs due CBS
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Let's stay on topic - storms are hardly ATC management's fault! There'll be more news following tomorrow's union meeting.
Although it was nice to see the $$$$NOC helping out our customers by forcing them into bad weather instead of coordinating release of Nowra airspace for diversions. |
LOL - as the original poster I can assure you I had no knowledge of the cause of the original delays when I posted the thread, so "ATC management" was certainly not the topic of the thread, although it may have developed along those lines.
I ill of course be interested to hear developments along those lines as well though :) |
Peter, to my knowledge there is no where to go to find out why there are delays. Usually, it will be staff shortages, weather, or emergency traffic. This forum is probably the place to ask. As you've seen, on the day in question, it was staff. Something which is happening far too often in this country.
Not only is AsA struggling to get controllers through the door, it has failed to appropriately resource and prioritise its training. In my opinion the training is a game of 'come on, we dare you get through it' cleverly disguised as adult training. SoAsA may well have an excess of controllers (which I doubt) but they sure as goodness are not endorsed appropriately to actually work. The inefficiences of the organisation are astounding. |
Although it was nice to see the $$$$NOC helping out our customers by forcing them into bad weather instead of coordinating release of Nowra airspace for diversions. My point being that R420 is controlled by Nowra ATC and diversions are never a problem but R453 & R495 (East Aus. Exercise Area) are owned and controlled by Maritime HQ in Sydney (Navy) and not by Nowra ATC. |
These may sound like dumb questions- In an ideal world, what numbers of staffing needed for SY TMA APP/DEP? What is an ideal roster? And what actual numbers do we have now? AND, what roster is actually running now?
Was there EVER a time within AirServices or even CAA when the rosters were safely manned? Sorry, it may help us plebs understand where the issue started...I am having a hard time justifying the extraordinary number of dead weight to actual revenue earning staff. 3000 total with about 800 at the coalface:eek: And you return how much every year to the shareholder?????? |
Dead weight? Have a looksie at this..........
Manager ATM Planning & Capability Manager, Ernst & Young ATM Capability Manager - National ATC NOC Optimisation Manager Business Support Manager Resource Planning and Rostering Manager Manager, Business Support National Operations Centre and CTMS Manager Program Manager, National Operations Centre (NOC) Manager, Upper Air Weather Service NTMP Project Manager Regional AIM Manager Manager, Operations Support National Manager AIS ATC Projects Implementation Manager Tower ATC Support and Procedures Manager National ATC Systems Manager Operations Manager – Systems Manager AusFIC Standards Improvement Manager, ECS Standards Improvement Manager UAS/RS Manager, Regional Airports Relationship Manager Manager ASEAN Relations Manager, Contract Management & OCR Accounts Contracts Manager Group Operations Manager Business Services Manager Manager - Marketing & Relationship Development Bids and Analysis Manager Northern Asia / GNSS Sales Manager National / Defence Sales Manager PNG Country Program Manager ITSAP Project Manager Manager Neighbourhood Capability Development Project Management & Aviation Solutions Manager Manager Project Delivery and Aviation Solutions GBAS Project Manager Minor Projects Service Delivery Manager Defence Technical Contract Manager Product Commercialisation & Aviation Solutions Manager Enterprise Risk Integration Manager Manager, Compliance Manager, National Property Property and Infrastructure Manager Facilities Manager Manager, Property Management Manager Property Operations Property Manager Manager, Security Manager, Shared Services Credit Manager Manager, Operations and Initiatives Records Management Unit Manager Manager Airline Relations Manager, Airport Relations Defence Relationship and Planning Manager Defence Relationship Manager Manager - Environment and Climate Change Manager Public Affairs Manager for Regulatory Reform and Business Information Environment Manager Manager Business Integration Accounting Operations – Manager Business Performance Manager Manager Corporate Accounting & Policy Accounting Operations Manager Financial Accounting & Policy Manager Manager, Treasury Manager Taxation Treasury Operations Manager Manager Financial Strategy Strategic Support Manager Corporate Planning Manager Business Analysis Manager Business Planning Manager Manager Pricing and Revenue Manager Group Finance Finance Manager - Corporate Initiatives Finance Manager – ARFF Finance Manager – ATC Finance Manager - Head Office Finance Manager - Performance Improvement Finance Manager – TAS Manager, Procurement & Corporate Efficiency Advisory Team Manager Manager, Change Management Manager Training Delivery Manager Design Manager Planning & Forecasting Manager Simulator and Support Manager Manager, People Services Manager, People Strategy Human Factors Manager, Operations Manager Human Factors and Analysis Human Factors Manager - Research and Design Manager, Crisis and Continuity Planning Manager Safety Enhancement and Development Safety System Manager Operational Risk System Manager Workplace System Manager Manager Safety Programs / CEO Airservices Pacific Safety Analysis Manager Northern Safety Programs Manager Safety Program Identification & Development Manager Safety Promotions Manager Southern Safety Programs Manager Manager, Safety Services Documentation Services Manager Northern Safety Services Manager Southern Safety Manager Branch Manager, Service Integrity Engineering Integrity Manager National Document Manager Operational Integrity Manager Regulatory Services Manager Regulatory Compliance Manager National Licensing Manager Manager Strategic Planning Manager, Intellectual Property Manager Priority and Coordination Manager, Business Strategy Manager Strategy Branch Manager - Aviation Business Systems Airways Information Technology Manager Business Systems Manager Eurocat Manager – ABS Infrastructure Services Manager Test Manager Manager, Facilities Management Services Manager, Adelaide FMS FMS Manager Brisbane Region Manager, Canberra FMS FMS Regional Manager Cairns Manager, Melbourne FMS Manager, Perth FMS Manager, Sydney FMS Technical Manager Manager, Technical Support FMS Branch Manager, Planning and Integration Manager, Asset Lifecycle Manager, Communications PI Frequency Spectrum Manager Manager Information Technology Manager, Infrastructure Manager Navigation & Surveillance Operations Manager, Planning and Integration Manager, Planning PI Manager: Information Communication Technology (ICT) Planning Installation Manager Procurement and Contracts Manager Engineering Manager Electronics & Communication Manager, Project Delivery Project Manager NTP Program Manager, Airports and Surveillance Contracts Project Manager Project Manager – TEDP Senior Project Manager - NationalTowers Program Manager, Resourcing Capability and Asset Services Laboratory Manager NTP - Tower Technology Project Manager Manager, Contract Support Manager, Contracts Project Manager, Software and DDID Services Project Manager – Communications Business Analyst/Project Manager Project Manager - TINR Satellite Project Project Manager TiNR Pilot Network Manager, TAS Support Branch Manager, System Operations Quality Systems Manager Business Engagement Manager SO Operations Manager Service Desk Manager Manager, Project Performance and Review 176 non operational 'Managers'. That is nearly 1 per 4 controllers and this list does not include anything even remotely operational wheere we have another 200 odd managers across ALMs, Level 3s and supervisor types, all unrated of course. Superb. |
Holy f:eek::eek:k! Even the goverment's not that top heavy. And they reckon Qantas has too many chiefs. No wonder there's no money for new controllers.
Manager, National Property Property and Infrastructure Manager Facilities Manager Manager, Property Management Manager Property Operations Property Manager Relationship Manager |
Heard a good one the other day:
Senior Advisor Corporate Effectiveness I suppose there's a Junior Advisor as well?! |
Far Canal mate.....I had to pause for oxygen several times scrolling through that list. WTF do they do all day? Email each other to create an impression of "work".......
I couldn`t find a manager for silly ideas though. You know, the one that came up with the idea to cancel leave even though the 'spin' department would have us belive we`re fully staffed. GOODWILL now equals NIL...:ugh: |
Now if they could only get rid of those pesky controllers, the system would run seamlessly (and perpetually)!
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I loved this one
Manager, Upper Air Weather Service |
Most of that admittedly vast list of managers have 'manager' in their title as a result of the contract versus EBA process established some years back. Before that most of them would have been ops support specialists, or some other appropriately demure title, and most would have been paid as part of the relevant ATC or engineering awards.
Having said that, I'd have to agree that the number of support staff or managers is disproportionate to what the organisation actually does (air traffic control for those who've forgotten) and apparently and obviously repetitive if the titles actually represent what the occupants of those positions do for a living. You'd have to ask the question - if you outsourced the management of the primary function of Airservices Australia - that is, air traffic control and managing the equipment that lets those controllers do their job - how many managers would be employed? I suspect no more than twenty. Good luck to the new guy at Sydney - all alone from a foreign environment with no support and 150 miles from that wealth of management talent in Canberra. |
Don't forget the firies, Ausfic, and techs.
I think most of us are flabbergasted at the amount of management concentrated in Canberra doing FIFO to the centres. The boss of Royal Dutch Shell said some months ago that their organisation had too many managers doing business with each other. I'm not holding my breath for TFN to say something similar and act. There is something wrong when you have more spin doctors based in Canberra than you do Approach controllers at our major airport. |
Yeah, sorry Max 1, I meant to include all the operational folk.
It would still be interesting to ask a service company like Serco how many managers they'd employ to look after 900 controllers, and 900 other operational or tecnical staff. A lot less than Airservices, I'd reckon. |
Managers
Didn't Qantas come out a few months back and state they had too many chiefs per indian?
Maybe AsA can learn something here? |
another question is, why don't Sydney have runway aligned star? all these director / circuit just make things busier and waste more time and fuel.
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Why do we still have approach controllers in Sydney anyway? Is it not operationally realistic that the function be performed out of ML/BN? It would be different (cost wise) if starting from 'green fields' but you're not... another question is, why don't Sydney have runway aligned star? all these director / circuit just make things busier and waste more time and fuel. I believe the reason not to have an aligned STAR for 07/25 is due to all the different "noise modes", there is no 'one solution' option due to the different DEP SID combinations... again a parallel runway issue... There is a STAR which ends mid-downwind RWY34L is there not? |
Serco, in Dubai has just got its first (and only) HR person. I fear it is the thin edge of the wedge and expect nothing good to come of it. :hmm:
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These may sound like dumb questions- In an ideal world, what numbers of staffing needed for SY TMA APP/DEP? What is an ideal roster? And what actual numbers do we have now? AND, what roster is actually running now? Was there EVER a time within AirServices or even CAA when the rosters were safely manned? Sorry, it may help us plebs understand where the issue started...I am having a hard time justifying the extraordinary number of dead weight to actual revenue earning staff. 3000 total with about 800 at the coalfacehttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...milies/eek.gif And you return how much every year to the shareholder?????? http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2538/...330fd16c0b.jpg So we've seen coalface controller numbers drop every single year from 70 to 48 while traffic numbers have increased 20%. Draw you own conclusions as to why airlines are getting these delays. |
One in three gone without replacement. Now it's all starting to make sense.
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On almost 200 days since the 1st of January 2008, Sydney has been one or more controllers below minimum staff. What has that cost the customers?
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Those figures are indeed damning! It is not isolated to the SY TCU either.
70 Operational ATCs reduced to 48 over 7 years, no wonder profits have gone from circa $30M pa to $120M pa in that period. The airlines really should be questioning the value they get for 'reduced airways charges'. Less in airways bills, huge increases in fuel burn and scheduling delays... I would guess the balance is very very wrong at the moment. Each SY-ML flight is now $25 less per flight in Airways but $150 less efficient...? The only real benefit is to the manager with the bonus related to reduction in airways charges... The staffing formulas used to be included in an ancient document called CATSOAM, now defunct... These figures clearly established minimum staffing; even though IMHO that formula produced a figure which was too low as it didn't include provision for long service leave or maternity leave. Now there is no guidance about minimum staffing... Hence really there is no such thing as 'minimum staffing' for a unit/group. There is a concept of minimum staffing for a shift or day; ie minimum bums on seats for a given time. It is historically derived and amended from 'positions opened data'. When you have shortages for a given day, it impacts the minimum staffing establishment; ie "you only have 3.6 positions opened on Friday afternoons", so minimum staffing becomes 4 for Friday afternoons. Despite the fact that you 'needed' 5 positions open and you only had 4 staff available. Staffing minimum's get less and less until you cannot provide service continuity... Then the PR merchants get to spin that we have enough staff available, just not on that day etc... It's not our fault that 3 people called in sick with short notice... Despite the fact that it was 1 etc... To all my friends in ASA management, "hello" from Ireland! Perhaps some of you could get a junket and see how staffing numbers should be managed... Sure the troops whinge about management here too, but it's an amazingly different attitude to staffing numbers and rostering. I know what I'm working in 2011 already; it will only be broken by training requirements or leave. When was the last time Ireland had TIBA or traffic management because of unavailability of staff ask yourself, "why?". Where is the real benefit to industry by running on the bones of your arse? It doesn't make sense; it's false economics always has been and always will be. |
That post should be printed out and posted directly to both the management of AsA (you'd need a lot of paper, granted...), and the managers AND commercial departments of the airlines.
Maybe even a decent journalist? (sic) |
Lest you gentle readers think that this is just a big smoke problem....
If ONE ...(1) Cairns controller.... gets hit by a bus/falls pregnant/ is sent to the funny farm etc... in the next 9 months. Its all leave canceled lad/laddies ....and youŕe all chained H24 to the console... pass the slops bucket I need to pee!!! The excreta will hit the rotating oscillator.. and be spread far and wide! Duck and Cover! L030 |
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