Delays at Sydney airport
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: here
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Delays at Sydney airport
Is there anywhere that you can find out WHY flights are delayed?
I'm watching a few planes now circling south of Sydney for 30-60 minutes and the company website just shows the flights as "delayed" but no reason.
Obviously its a problem with the airport, as the planes are within 10 minutes of the airport but not being allowed to land and there is only light traffic.
I'm watching a few planes now circling south of Sydney for 30-60 minutes and the company website just shows the flights as "delayed" but no reason.
Obviously its a problem with the airport, as the planes are within 10 minutes of the airport but not being allowed to land and there is only light traffic.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: brisbane australia
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
atc problem
Flights around the country are being delayed or cancelled tonight because of a shortage of air traffic controllers at Sydney airport.
Some planes are being forced to circle for at least 45 minutes before landing, while many passengers on the ground are being forced to spend an extra night in Sydney.
Some planes are being forced to circle for at least 45 minutes before landing, while many passengers on the ground are being forced to spend an extra night in Sydney.
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Geosynchronous
Posts: 159
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[ABC News]
Flights around the country are being delayed or cancelled tonight because of a shortage of air traffic controllers at Sydney airport.
Some planes are circling for at least 45 minutes before landing, while many passengers on the ground are being forced to spend an extra night in Sydney.
Air Services Australia (ASA) says three employees called in before their shifts this afternoon to say that they could not come to work.
A spokeswoman says it is not related to any industrial matters but is unable to say whether it is because they are sick or have had to take the day off for personal reasons.
She says replacements were unavailable.
A spokeswoman for Virgin Blue says there will be cancellations and delays, with some people having to be accommodated overnight.
She says planes are circling for at least 45 minutes before landing in Sydney.
Qantas says its flights have been delayed for up to an hour.
ASA says flights should be back to normal tomorrow.
Sydney airport officials have refused to comment, saying it is a problem for Air Services Australia.
Flights around the country are being delayed or cancelled tonight because of a shortage of air traffic controllers at Sydney airport.
Some planes are circling for at least 45 minutes before landing, while many passengers on the ground are being forced to spend an extra night in Sydney.
Air Services Australia (ASA) says three employees called in before their shifts this afternoon to say that they could not come to work.
A spokeswoman says it is not related to any industrial matters but is unable to say whether it is because they are sick or have had to take the day off for personal reasons.
She says replacements were unavailable.
A spokeswoman for Virgin Blue says there will be cancellations and delays, with some people having to be accommodated overnight.
She says planes are circling for at least 45 minutes before landing in Sydney.
Qantas says its flights have been delayed for up to an hour.
ASA says flights should be back to normal tomorrow.
Sydney airport officials have refused to comment, saying it is a problem for Air Services Australia.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Melbourne Australia
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CTMS 70mins and then 40mins holding!! what is going on and why do the airlines always have to be the ones who cop the passenger abuse and of course the huge costs involved. 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Springfield
Posts: 248
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
trueline nails it
Chronic short staffing throughout the organisation evaporated the traditional internal sources of transfer into SYD TMA.
Middle management rewarded for reducing core staff below minimum requirements and filling on (ironically cheaper) overtime.
Years of warnings unheeded.
Inexplicable inability to recruit and train sufficient backfill.
Abysmal attempts at overseas recruitment direct to SYD TMA producing < 20% of required graduates.
It's only going to get worse chaps and chapettes. The few remaining controllers on their days off are generally too disenfranchised to bother covering roster shortfalls thanks to post-EBA reprisals from Canberra.
Chronic short staffing throughout the organisation evaporated the traditional internal sources of transfer into SYD TMA.
Middle management rewarded for reducing core staff below minimum requirements and filling on (ironically cheaper) overtime.
Years of warnings unheeded.
Inexplicable inability to recruit and train sufficient backfill.
Abysmal attempts at overseas recruitment direct to SYD TMA producing < 20% of required graduates.
It's only going to get worse chaps and chapettes. The few remaining controllers on their days off are generally too disenfranchised to bother covering roster shortfalls thanks to post-EBA reprisals from Canberra.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Dubai
Age: 44
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Duff man,
My understanding is most of the reprisals/reinterpretations/etc have been driven by a certain SDL manager in Melbourne who got rolled in the negotiations, not from Canberra.
Speaking to the ALMs, most realise the end effect it will have but there isn't much anyone can do when this certain SDL manager is also the de facto Centre manager. Anyone want to pitch in $20 to start a 'Bring back Hoody' fund?
My understanding is most of the reprisals/reinterpretations/etc have been driven by a certain SDL manager in Melbourne who got rolled in the negotiations, not from Canberra.
Speaking to the ALMs, most realise the end effect it will have but there isn't much anyone can do when this certain SDL manager is also the de facto Centre manager. Anyone want to pitch in $20 to start a 'Bring back Hoody' fund?
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Dubai
Age: 44
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On the topic, AsA can blame the controllers involved all they want. It doesn't change the fact that best staffing practice dictates that in aviation, you have spare people on standby to cover the shortfall when people do go sick. Sickness happens and if your only plan to cover it is to get people in on their day off, you will end up with service problems.
Why the rest of the aviation world does it as standard but our magnificent 'leaders' can't see that it is necessary is beyond me!
Why the rest of the aviation world does it as standard but our magnificent 'leaders' can't see that it is necessary is beyond me!
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hmmm not enough doctors, not enough judges, not enough atc, overcrowded hospitals, enormous waiting lists...
HANG ON THERE'S A TREND HERE!
Good on VB for saying "hey that's enough!".
HANG ON THERE'S A TREND HERE!
Good on VB for saying "hey that's enough!".
Last edited by Mr. Hat; 14th Sep 2009 at 12:16. Reason: mr hat likes to type fast thinking he will save time but just ends up missing keys as he is not a very good typist..
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Here and Now
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Three out of 10 air traffic controllers equal chaos
Ben Sandilands writes:
Sydney had a jet jam involving thousands of delayed travellers yesterday, both in the ground and in the terminals, just over a year after AirServices Australia promised to fix an air traffic staffing shortfall by the end of September 2008.
The essential figures are that Sydney Airport was supposed to operate on a roster of 10 air traffic controllers, but only three were available yesterday.
AirServices boasts a payroll of over 3000 staff. Why a mere six of them are considered all that are necessary for approach and departure control at such a critically important airport is almost as much a mystery as to what a large part of the staff actually do in terms of productive work.
There appear to be more media managers and image massagers than Sydney controllers on the ASA payroll. Questions asked of AirServices went unanswered this morning.
It is also a mystery why the Minister for Infrastructure, Anthony Albanese, believes anything AirServices says, including its claims last year that air traffic manning issues were really part of an industrial campaign.
There has been industrial peace in the skies since May. But the services remains undermanned according to the union, Civil Air, which has also been critical of AirServices failure to adequately train controllers for both replacement and expansion.
Nor does it represent all controllers. In the last year, air traffic control disruptions have continued across Australia because of shortages of union and non-union staff.
The president of the Civil Air union, Robert Mason, said "four out of ten of 796 controllers will retire in the next five years, and we are 100 short of the minimum needed for certainty of service today."
The inescapable truth about AirServices is that it has botched the resourcing of the service, and Albanese has been unable to find either the time or inclination within the Infrastructure super-ministry to engage with and resolve the situation.
In the delays near Sydney yesterday, airliners were assigned positions in wide ranging holding patterns to ensure they lined up in a safe order for arrivals, while departures were spaced out along routes intended to give a wide berth to the squadron of circling jets.
None of which would have been necessary when route control is handed over to approach and departure control at busy airports.
Air traffic control was invented because of the uncertainties of self separation. It is a no brainer, just like the administration of air traffic control in this country.
Sydney had a jet jam involving thousands of delayed travellers yesterday, both in the ground and in the terminals, just over a year after AirServices Australia promised to fix an air traffic staffing shortfall by the end of September 2008.
The essential figures are that Sydney Airport was supposed to operate on a roster of 10 air traffic controllers, but only three were available yesterday.
AirServices boasts a payroll of over 3000 staff. Why a mere six of them are considered all that are necessary for approach and departure control at such a critically important airport is almost as much a mystery as to what a large part of the staff actually do in terms of productive work.
There appear to be more media managers and image massagers than Sydney controllers on the ASA payroll. Questions asked of AirServices went unanswered this morning.
It is also a mystery why the Minister for Infrastructure, Anthony Albanese, believes anything AirServices says, including its claims last year that air traffic manning issues were really part of an industrial campaign.
There has been industrial peace in the skies since May. But the services remains undermanned according to the union, Civil Air, which has also been critical of AirServices failure to adequately train controllers for both replacement and expansion.
Nor does it represent all controllers. In the last year, air traffic control disruptions have continued across Australia because of shortages of union and non-union staff.
The president of the Civil Air union, Robert Mason, said "four out of ten of 796 controllers will retire in the next five years, and we are 100 short of the minimum needed for certainty of service today."
The inescapable truth about AirServices is that it has botched the resourcing of the service, and Albanese has been unable to find either the time or inclination within the Infrastructure super-ministry to engage with and resolve the situation.
In the delays near Sydney yesterday, airliners were assigned positions in wide ranging holding patterns to ensure they lined up in a safe order for arrivals, while departures were spaced out along routes intended to give a wide berth to the squadron of circling jets.
None of which would have been necessary when route control is handed over to approach and departure control at busy airports.
Air traffic control was invented because of the uncertainties of self separation. It is a no brainer, just like the administration of air traffic control in this country.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would love to see stats on how many times delays like last Sunday's were avoided because ATCs gave up their days off to fill in. Personal experience leads me to believe there would be close to one a week (not just at SYD).
So for every time you experience delays - have a think about how many other times delays were avoided due to ridiculous amounts of overtime. If ATCs only worked their rostered 72 hour week, the massive holes in the system would soon be obvious to those outside ASA as well.
To hear idiots say that "we only need 889 ATCs and we have 960 on the books" just makes me spit. Like several years ago when the RAAF, realising that the category was almost 100 controllers under strength fixed it by simply "drawing down" CE at each base - voila, now we're fully manned!
So for every time you experience delays - have a think about how many other times delays were avoided due to ridiculous amounts of overtime. If ATCs only worked their rostered 72 hour week, the massive holes in the system would soon be obvious to those outside ASA as well.
To hear idiots say that "we only need 889 ATCs and we have 960 on the books" just makes me spit. Like several years ago when the RAAF, realising that the category was almost 100 controllers under strength fixed it by simply "drawing down" CE at each base - voila, now we're fully manned!
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 545
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
well said..........
Perhaps the Minister might be advised to do a bit of plane watching at YSSY rather than filling up my inbox with media releases about new signs that are [quote] "almost ready to be installed" on the
[quote] "almost completed Bruce Highway Improvements"
Might be a good time for Messrs Creedy, Sandilands & Co to scrum down and design a strategic barrage of FOI requests to ASA & the Minister's Office.
sidebar]
Speaking of airport pain - well done to the Qlink Dash drivers negotiating GLT approach which looks more like a links golf course. -
Perhaps the Minister might be advised to do a bit of plane watching at YSSY rather than filling up my inbox with media releases about new signs that are [quote] "almost ready to be installed" on the
[quote] "almost completed Bruce Highway Improvements"
Might be a good time for Messrs Creedy, Sandilands & Co to scrum down and design a strategic barrage of FOI requests to ASA & the Minister's Office.
sidebar]
Speaking of airport pain - well done to the Qlink Dash drivers negotiating GLT approach which looks more like a links golf course. -
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Local Ovarian
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If they successfully get sued by the airlines, do you think there will be an increase in service fees and more political legal red tape? If they don't manage to recover the costs, do we suffer due to lack of improved technology and extra training for staff to keep up to date with world standards?
Who will win in a situation like that?
Who will win in a situation like that?
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Local Ovarian
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My personal belief for any of this to work is for the government to intervene immediately. The airlines should drop their legal action against ASA and focus on the government providing a suitable immediate outcome in the interest of safety, efficiency ( I hear Rudd talking about carbon offset?? WTF happens when you have twenty jets circling for twenty min unnecessarily) and hence maximization of revenue.
It was the government that privatized most of its sectors to gain revenue and avoid any legal retribution. They are largely to blame due to lack of regulation after privatization.
The public, the tax payers (Taxes more than airfare tickets), the airport, the airlines, the staff, should not have to suffer the fate of one immoral company for the greater good of itself.
Do you agree?.. Or am I missing something substantial in this?
It was the government that privatized most of its sectors to gain revenue and avoid any legal retribution. They are largely to blame due to lack of regulation after privatization.
The public, the tax payers (Taxes more than airfare tickets), the airport, the airlines, the staff, should not have to suffer the fate of one immoral company for the greater good of itself.
Do you agree?.. Or am I missing something substantial in this?