Merged: All you want to know about A380 for CC!
 

got this email out of nowhere, add this to the FAAA long list of achievement. Majority agrees with FAAA my foot.

THIS IS A TRANSFER OF DISCUSSIONS THAT HAVE BEEN GOING ON OVER IN THE BFA GROUP.
ABUSIVE PERSONAL EMAILS BY THE USUAL SUSPECTS AND MALCONTENTS OF THIS SWAP GROUP WILL BE IGNORED/DELETED. DON'T EVEN WASTE YOUR ENERGY. IF YOU HAVE ANY COMMENTS, POST THEM TO ALL F/A.

If you feel strongly enough about your work options, consider this and share it with your colleagues and the FAAA.

Why offer A380 flying to domestic crew?

Why not offer a nominal number of positions to QAL crew...interview them, train them and then include A380 flying in what we originally thought was included in our 'international LH' flying pool?

Why do we have a surplus of LH crew? ... the ravaging of our patterns by the A380.

The A380 is INTERNATIONAL. .. not DOMESTIC! We have been on the losing end since Qantas bought the domestic TAA/Australian Airlines (an ardent competitor to Qantas, they were the feeder airline to QF's competitors- Ansett was QF's domestic feeder airline)

We must contend with Domestic crew transferring over to LH and then jumping original LH crew in seniority... then why offer to them more of our work!!

Force them to take their LSL and excess leave and other 'leave burn' options.. and include the A380 flying in International flying under a better negotiated deal for LH crew!

There is a better option than what is proposed or enforced upon us by FAAA.

Hands off our work Domestics... we've had enough of you!

Well... obviously there is a lot of disappointment and frustration around our workplace...

YES of course i believe we all agree - that we are all grateful to have a job!.... although that is not to say.... accept unfairness and injustice!!! and on top of that continue to pay fees!

instead of voicing a few emails here that are probably not going to solve much... I wonder? is there a way that you guys "lesnegociants" could organise a petitions?

That at least could be a "formal" testimony from crew that are very disappointed and therefor willing to put their names down in order to put forward negotiations and hopefully constructively achieve something!

...I know I would sign it! ...and i think a lot of other crew would too!

anyway... just a thought!

It`s great to see some of you feel the same but I`m still confused.

What I don`t get is how come Domestic can get access to the A380 when they are all still sitting on massive LSL balances. We all know they were afforded the protection of their Leave by ONE sentence in their award.

I might feel differently if they too had been directed to use their LSL. In Alison Webster`s latest letter she states that Domestic will have to use one roster`s Leave. That`s only one month for them. A drop in the bucket.

It feels as though we in International are making all the concessions.
I was in contact with FAAA Friday. They state that as Executives they get to make the decisions for us Members without consultation or communication with us. Think this is the biggest problem overall. Aren't we members "THE UNION". We all should be able to have voices that our elected officials listen to!!!! Be heard long haul flight attendants. EBA8 was suppose to protect not eradicate our work conditions. Communication is sadly lacking and I agree that it should not be a dictatorship.

Yes the company has fallen on a bad patch, but it has been there before and we long haul flight attendants are always called upon to make sacrifices. Each time we lose and the company keeps gaining. Don't know if you all remember but as part of EBA8, an extra flight attendant was to be put on board Premium economy aircraft. So how can the company and FAAA justify this flight attendant being taken off???

Use your voices and don't forget the General Meetings are coming up in a months time. Check FAAA for dates

wow.....it certainly would appear there is a groundswell of disappointment and bewilderment within the membership by the recent decisions taken by our elected offficials.
I`m kinda reminded of George Orwell`s `Animal Farm` where the pigs took over and started to make all the decisions on behalf of all the other animals.
Their credo `we are all equal... but some of us are more equal than the others` springs to mind when I think of the protection afforded to our very fortunate Domestic colleagues and the seemingly limitless concessions we here in International continue to make.
In their most recent newsletter I noted with interest the FAAA`s use of the word `tribalism` when talking about the Divisions. I guess it serves them to slap such a label on what really is just loyalty to our own, and an interest in self-preservation.
Perhaps we SHOULD get a petition together just as someone suggested. Afterall, as John Lydon aka Johnny Rotten from the Sex Pistols once said...without our opinions we are nothing more than slaves.
Safe flying.

The thing that really irks me the most is the line from the FAAA memo that reads:

"...and for those of us that may have been angered by past decisions and actions of our Short Haul colleagues for whatever reasons, this should square the books as far as I am concerned"

This should "square away" S/H agreeing that we get less pay than they do when we transfer across, and later signing up to do our regional flying for less money? This squares away nothing! If they were so wonderful they'd just take their leave and be quiet, not try to make themselves heroes in the process and then go on to work the A380.

SHORT Haul are agreeing to give up all international flying on the 767, and international flying and domestic flying on the A330 and send it to Long Haul to soak up the surplus.

227 QCCA crew were about to be made CR before the 30th June..i think that the QCCA crew would appreciate the "gesture" of SH crew.

The few crew that come to long haul from SH are far less than the flying they are sending over and the jobs that are being saved.

ALl of the issues are coming from QAL crew who would not have been made redundant because they are too senior.

If the Last on first off wasnt in place i doubt you would be hearing this codswallop from the senior crew they would be screaming like babies and crying and begging for someone to save their jobs, their private school fees and their investment properties.

Quite frankly they can get stuffed i dont give a tinkers cuss what they say of think. The FAAA SH and LH have done the right thing

Is this what the union thinks of senior crew and seniority?

Thats what i think of senior crew who dont give a **** about anyone but themselves. personally with 25 years up i consider myself senior so i am obviously not talking about everyone but i am certainly talking about 10% of the LH population who dont give a stuff about anyone but themselves

ok there has been some misunderstanding, pegasus, it's that 10% seniors that you referred to that irritates me. one tells me he never ever do jo bergs, how arrogant is that? still many only talk about shopping for their second new kitchen, their 2 more investment property, just so annoying. on the other end of the spectrum, qcca crew cannot even get a mortgage approved becos of such low verifiable income. (as we all know lending criteria have tighten)

now we do know there is another group of factions that do not like the proposal, if that number is large, then u have morale problems. I think the writer was concern about the sh seniors might just jump queue and able to bid better trips etc. I also detect they are not too happy that sh can just glide into a BFA position where in LH you have to go through an application process, which many have also being rejected and bitter, they're the bfirst rejects. I remembered meeting one who told me of how many years she had been doing first class and now she got rejected 3 times.

oh well times have changed.

How was Australian Airline an "ardent" competitor to Qantas. They didn't fly the same routes. Ansett may have been the "preferred" domestic airlines to offer connecting flights to Qantas services but plenty of people flew on Australian to connect with Qantas :confused:

Pegasus says
"Quite frankly they can get stuffed i dont give a tinkers cuss what they say of think. The FAAA SH and LH have done the right thing"...Hmmm, interesting attitude!

I don't know who you are but you certainly seem to be "in the know" ALOT. Well I can tell you ALOT of crew are not happy. And whilst i don't agree with many of the sentiments in some of those responses, the union will def be hearing about it at the next meetings! And you know what? I can't wait!

Pegasus, such contempt....

"whingers, retarded water melons, complete irrelevant losers..." is that what you think of the membership?

Just because someone expresses an opposite opinion it doesn't make them any of those things. There are alternate points of view! Not everything we are "fed" has to be believed.

OPINIONS WILL BE EXPRESSED! PEOPLE WILL TALK AND THE UNION WILL BLOODY WELL HEAR IT!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND YOU KNOW WHY? BECAUSE WE ARE THE COLLECTIVE! IT'S NOT A DICTATORSHIP!

Get off your high horse!

I thing Pegasus must be taking tips from the fascist dictatorship on QCC/1.Maybe he will start kicking a few heads if future opinions are expressed in a frank and open manner. How can one maintain control of the worforce /membership if they have the temerity to go against the regime??What is the line about absolute power? Well some of the newsletters coming out of the FAAA are getting more and more bizarre. No one repeat no one wants to see redundancies. Apparently now if you dare to question the way it has been done you are automatically branded an enemy of the state and will be agressively persued. Sound familiar?

very true. all opposition will be crushed lol

God you take yourself too seriously....i am sure there are people who actually have conversations every day with elected officials and the lawyers that the FAAA employ and they "don't" have to agree

show me one newsletter from the FAAA that says members arent entitled to a view. The FAAA is not required to agree with every member.

In fact if the FAAA responded to every pressure group pushing their own barrows it would be pandemonium

Lets look at some of the issues the FAAA has to play solomon over

1. Crew that have previous service with the COmpany that want that counted for seniority for bidding and redundancy

2. crew that resigned from TAA and joined Qantas want their previous service with TAA counted for bidding

3. crew who were forced to leave through discrimination and came back got their seniority back thanks to the previous elected officials of the FAAA and over 1000 crew signed petitions and took the matter to court to overturn it and lost....resentment still remains

4. Crew who were with AO in CNS who resigned to join QCCA now want continuity of service and part 1 conditions

5. Junior Crew who are doing back to back JNB want a cap on them and that would force them further up the tree or at the least cause capping on other trips as well.

6. crew who would prefer last on first off redundancy for junior crew rather than the Long Service leave burn or the tri partite agreement.

7. Crew who want promotions in Melbourne only for Melbourne based crew

8. Crew who want Seniority scrapped

9. crew who want category seniority for CSS/CSM

10. Crew who want parts of the EBA overturned and renegotiated, but without the company getting to change any of the things that they want

11. QCCA crew who want the end of seniority and junior QAL crew would would also like to see seniority scrapped.

12. Short Haul crew that want international flying and short haul crew that only want to be in INternational

13. Short Haul crew in CNS that want out of CNS

14. Perth domestic crew who want out of perth (including those that have just joined)

15. A government that when approached about overseas bases and offshoring "says get over it it's part of globalisation". And allows any foreign airline to operate in and out of australia without any conditions

16. Company's like Virgin that wont even negotiate with Unions





and the list goes on and on

If anyone has a solution to any of these issues that will make "everyone" happy i think they should email the FAAA...

and thats not to mention

the recidivist drunks that keep turning up for work pissed or drink on the aircraft and are a constant drain on FAAA resources

Crew that are constantly dobbing on other members causing a few new clause 11's everyweek

CSM's and CSS's incapable of managing a conversation with their managers without it turning into a clause 11

and thats not to even mention pathalogical liars as cabin crew managers and team managers who set people up that they dont like and the FAAA is attending meetings every day with members to ensure that they are being treated fairly

and one final thing.. SH crew transferring to LH has been happening since the merger in fact there are far more LH crew that have transferred to SH than the other way.

Th Usual Rubbish
 

All QAL were offered opportunities to transfer to the A380.Not many chose to do so because of the restrictions to lifestyle.Why would any body begrudge the domestics taking positions that nobody else wants?.
As far as Peg is concerned he has always been a source of reliable and useful information.There are those that post here who have labelled him a union executive and no amount of evidence to the contrary will convince them otherwise.The point is Peg chooses to keep himself informed while others who are too lazy to read communiques and/or ring the union office continually bag him.
No wonder the guy gets annoyed.The usual half dozen small barking dogs never ever offer anything constructive or creative.Praise be to Mickey Mouse that these small barking dogs are not indicative of the majority of the hard working intelligent ladies and gentlemen who fly.
The silent majority who have never even heard of PPRuNe let alone ppost here

Thanks for the vote of support Surf...

its very hard to tell it like it is sometimes...i will be the first to admit that i have been an official in the past and i think i am well informed.

I have seen the best and the worst of officials over the years and i just happen to think that at the moment we have some thinking people running the union.

They dont have kneejerk reactions. They have shown great courage when required and run very significant media campaigns, and have very carefully cultivated a good working relationship with Management.

They are very visible, have issued more information in the form of newsletters and members meetings than any of their predecessors in my 25 years. I think that flight attendants are very well informed and have more information than they have ever had in the past.

I think what frustrates me is that crew will listen to rumour and speculation and take it as gospel without even bothering to talk to the company or the union.

if people would prefer me not to post on here then can hit the ignore button next to my name....I dont have any more information than is generally available by talking to officials, the company leaders and more importantly reading the FAAA newsletters

My suggestion to crew is read the newsletters....its all there and they dont tell lies.....if you can find a newsletter with a lie or misleading information then you have cause to complain...

Heads Down Heads Up his own
 

This guy joins in May and has already made 48 posts.Most of which is complete garbled nonsense.
He has become the hero of the Vacuous Vanities.C'mon folks lets be a little pragmatic.This tripartite deal is a win win.
If anyone has an intelligent well thought out alternative where everyone is happy lets hear it.
A cacophany of stupidity will no doubt ensue

at the very least, one of my concerns was not made up, after all.

this is a very serious issue that needs to be addressed, this affects morale, confidence, instill fear into the workplace which amounts to harassment, and encourage made up stories for personal enjoyment.

In fact, even the FAAA had repeatedly warned that allegators have to be prepared to back up their tales etc...this is not reinforced, in fact, team managers are all too happy to be judge and jury and cover up identities of dobbers. How did this common practice by team managers even slip through the tight FAAA cracks, I do not know.

And Pegasus, I understand you gave this long list of wants from members and all the services that FAAA has to render constantly etc...

BUT

Did we, as members not paid money for the exact services that was promised for the payment of the fees? Last heard, because of members' money, the building is now paid for many times over since years ago, cash up in the piggy bank, spare cash to even hire a full time lawyer and industrial officer and other staff.

You don't just collect money for nothing. You collect people's money for a service and those long list of what-nots you put up are simply service that they are obliged to render for money accepted.

Well if they do not like all the variety of requests, than just stop taking the money too, simple as that.

and Machinegun Fellatio, if you do not like a certain member, just build a bridge and cross it, nobody said you have to like everyone at Qantas. Not even the bible says that. On the same token, nobody at Qantas gives a rats rectum about your opinion and they've crossed the bridge so long ago.

heads down

once again you are totally wrong...Clause 11 states that anonymous complaints will not be investigated.

Crew cannot shield themselves from scrutiny by withholding their names. The FAAA is entitled to cross examine any person who writes a complaint.

And this happens.... so please heads up or down or whereever your head is at the moment...please dont rely on hearsay,,just stick to the facts

Pegasus, you are so wrong
I had an incident where I was yanked into the office and I asked who said that and my team manager said I am not at liberty to tell.

and that was a bloody trivial incident too.

I wished I had so much confidence in the way our team managers operate like you too.
The fact is, I truly believe they really do not know their work very well. They know nothing about compo, natural justice, precedences, labor laws, etc. let alone the actual flying work.

Also A reliable source told me they are paid about $85 000 including super a year

well it wasnt a clause 11 then was it....and you didnt ask for FAAA support or that conversation wouldnt have taken place.....now tell the truth

the response to a team manager who wants to discuss something that you think is a "performance matter" is.... just hang on for a sec i need a union rep here....

They soon lose interest

look, yanking you inside by a ground duty on your roster is traumatising enough, for all that nonsense,one would think that you can find out who on earth did that to you.

See this just goes on and on and on unless FAAA says enough is enough and I think the best way to stop these nonsense is to have both the dobber and the dobbee to be in the office at the same time. This will discourage personal agenda.

Look, you and I both know that there are probably 1001 things you can dob someone in for, if you really are keen. And you know the managers are certainly kleenex keen, So in view of that, how can one be sure that just cos someone had a personal grudge against you and do it on you?

This is why I think our team managers are incompetent and so are the FAAA for not putting a stop to these.

oh god i dont know why i bother......

you just dont get it.... people are responsible for their own behaviour. The FAAA can give advice and crew are free to ignore it.

The best advice they have given crew is that if they want representation "call"

in your case heads down you may not even be a member. My experience is that most FAAA members call when they need assistance ...if you chose not to then you have to accept the consequences.

now as for the FAAA putting a stop to crew dobbing on crew.....you are really in pixie land.

I had been a member of FAAA since day 1
anyways that's besides the point, I do not keep calling FAAA every time like some members who want their full $24 worth each week. I figured I only call if it was really serious.

Anyways, since you concede dobbing is a culture in cabin crew, is there any wonder one gets cynical when crew here say things like,"oh crew help crew" "oh, if we can stop a crew from CR be it QCCA, MAM, AKL or QAL or whatever, then we can hail Mary 5 times" "oh even though I am senior but I do not wish to see a MAM casual go, cos all crew are crew" "oh we crew should all unite as one"

What a load of crock **** from MacDonald's farm!

In my short time as a crew in Qantas all I can see is crew hates crew, crew ganging up on crews, crew lies, crew dobbing crew, crew stepping all over crew, crew brown nosing, crew cannot wait to get ahead, crew cannot wait to be the bright shining star etc.

there are about 6000 crew .....not all are dobbers....not all are members....not all are drunks, thieves, whores , addicts or mentally ill

but we have all of the above.... we are likely any small town of 6000 not everyone is an asshole and the vast majority are thoroughly decent.

So trying to save others jobs is not unusual.... its actually normal....the ones that dont care are in that minority

you know as one of the last 'bidders' in longhaul, this really sucks. More senior beehives coming over, just pushes us down even more. We were finally getting something but JNB and now we will be back to it. I realise the FAAA is in it for everyone, but would have liked the Longhaul FAAA to do something to look after the juniors before letting the beehives come in, just as the beehives stopped us from getting 'bands payments' by going to their division.But then again, I guess most of the FAAA are senior...:mad:

personally Pegasus I think you underestimate how many ambitious crews there are. That's all I will say.



Ambitious does not mean with merit or even intelligent.

cart elevator, let's face it, the number of juniors in QAL pales to the number of seniors, this said, you know the answer. One time, I even heard a senior crew told me that because they had been paying fees for so long, their needs should be served first by FAAA, with attitude like that, it's no wonder the seniors simply alienate themselves.

Heads Down
You need to let go of that incident or go back to your Team Manager and discuss how 'intimidated' you feel. I have worked closely with Team Managers over the past year and find them to actually be on 'our' side most of the time. In fact I think they are doing pretty damn well at the moment not telling all the whining SH crew who 'don't think they should have to take leave just to save some casual/juniors job' to get a life as they wait to see if they have indefinite holidays (ie- they still haven't heard if their jobs are safe). If you are having issues with one- go and speak to another as step one.

In response to all the crud about Short Haul taking all "OUR" flying.....no division owns any flying. The company has the right to choose routes and who flys them. Simple.

Many routes will be taken from short haul in this tripartite agreement.

SH are now being directed to take LSL and AL even though our EBA states we cannot be directed LSL.(Facilitive agreement outside EBA has overridden this clause).

The only reason SH are being offered the A380 is that the company cannot recruit QCCA's at present.

LH SIGNED THE EBA THAT ALLOWED QCCA TO FLY THE A380.

Who is This Guy?
 

Somebody is not a happy camper.Somebody has stolen a couple of his sandwiches.So he is two sandwiches short of his picnic.Every post is negative and revolves around him .Talk about self absorbed.
Give us all a break.Try to find something positive to say that doesnt involve you

Hey Carty
 

The beehives are going to the A380.There isnt any bidding for them there

Confucius did say, people only remember bad experiences and forget happy experiences.

I think it ia a combination of few things:

1. I would never have done something like that, I never go behind crews and talk about them to management, when I knock off from work, I knock off, simple as that.
So imagine my shock.

2. I expected team managers to use common sense.


3. I set high standards for myself and even higher standards for managers. If you are in a position to manage me, I have every right to expect you to be better than me in every aspect, people skills, common sense, knowledge etc, has to be above and better than me. Otherwise, you should just step down and let someone else do the job.

4. Elephants never forget.

well if everyone was so happy like you, there would not be so many divorces now would there?

If every one was so positive, than the war in middle east would have ended yonks ago now , wouldn't it?

If people weren't self absorb I wonder why every year there's a miss world competition.

and for the record, I was talking about team managers, dobbing crews, qantas as a caring employer, Union achievements (we have not had enough of that) so I think you have poor comprehension skills.

.....heads down........stay down
 

Hey Heads Down.

Are you shacking up with Twiggs -cause from what you write/post it looks like you are both toking on the same Billie!

Get over it mate!

Crew aren't all that bad.....even the Bee hives.

Sure there are a few low life's out there lurking in the shadows -....but you show me any workplace that does not have them.

Best advice that I ever got was from Matt Kennedy on a 7 day slip in Belgrade after he consumed a bottle of Russia's finest.

"KEEP YOUR F---K-N HEAD DOWN, STAY OUT OF THE OFFICE AND KEEP SMILING.......THIS IS THE BEST JOB IN THE WORLD !";)

Heads Down
Look at the Grievance Procedures in your EBA. You can take steps if you feel hard done by. Posting it all here is not going to do anything to improve your situation.

Yes. The SH crew who are taking up a 'fixed term' contract will be operating on the A380 by December 09. With no seniority.

Again we need to look at the bigger picture. If it means WE all keep our jobs- then it has to be a positive in the long run.

Heads Up Yours
 

There is no "I" in team.
As someone correctly pointed out you are fixated on yourself.
Get a life.
Get a dog.
Get something but just get off PPrune.
God Lord who did you annoy before you discovered this forum?

and for the last of the junior bidders this deal actually helps you. if the QCCA crew are sent to A380 you will have nobody below you.

By sending SH crew to A380 and leaving the QCCA crew in LH it will actually help your bidding and at the same time please the QCCA CREW . WIN/WIN

its amusing reading your replies pegasus..... what's even more amazing is reading the garbage that comes from Heads off!

keep up the information Pegasus.... I find it invaluable...."at times"

With the regionals still recruiting why is there no secondment to regionals allieviate the current oversupply at mainline? Alliance are contracting to QLink out of Bris with Alliance F/A's wearing QANTAS uniforms. Why is this not being done with 737's if mainline work is slowing down.

Absolutely priceless stubby and the advice you got from Matt Kennedy is spot on but there are a lot of crew who look at QCC1 as a career enhancement center and spend more time there than at home or away.

From memory heads_down said he/she used to work in QCC1.If thats the case remember the old saying the walls have ears and the office likes to know what everyone is saying when they are away.If you understand where Pegasus works and finds it neccessary to post as does his support team here so too does the office and you don't have to look too far to see who they are.

Assumptions
 

You make a lot of assumptions there JJ.
Peg has never been pro management but more pragamatic.
It is well known a lot of CC from the lunatic fringe reside in Melbourne.

Well,we could argue that one for days but I thought it was clear from my post that I was not referring to peg as one of the plants from the office.

I did say that peg and the others in the union had a support team which posts here but I did not say they were clever.:ugh:

as i said
 

just got back from a little trip and the troops dont seem to be too happy about this deal by the FAAA.
here is the consensus what the crew made of this deal

it appears the whole deal was set so the behives dont come to LH (otherwise they will be instantly sent to 20 years LSL/AL lol), that leaves some S/H to join l/h. the real deal is in that the young boys/girls (QCD) to cross on fixed term straight to the A380.
Senior Management WANT Young faces (regardless of expirience) for the A380 and the FAAA LH goes along with it. they do not give a toss about senior crews !!!
Why would they have not poshed for current LH crew to get all slots on the upcoming A380??????????????????.there is a surplus!!!! ?????
Management does not want that!!!
Once the flying picks up again in a couple of years QCCA will again be employed therfore pushing senior crew into regional or as managment would like it, take redundancy or just go.
such a transparent strategy but it seems the 3 amigos dont get it!!
Its all QF's way.
You could have sent QCCA to do domestic flying??:oh:
Who wants the domestic flying anyway????????????:yuk:

the other major ongoing issue is of course clause 11. there is a need to root out this systemic approach by the company. once again the FAAA LH fails its members(not my words but general feeling amongst the troops).
A ranting from a mixed senority crew:E

I understand that current LH crew including QCCA are able to apply to the A380 first.
The remaining numbers will then be filled by fixed term from SH.

It is open to all crew. Yes the senior F/A's have been told they will have to take all LSL and AL if they take the 'fixed term' however they know they will be directed to take it at SH as well. Why not go to LH and get it paid at a higher rate?

QCD are all Perth based. I would think as Perth base is short staffed they will not be chosen to take the fixed term. The company has the right to choose from all applicants according to operational requirements.

As for all the thought that we are only saving QCCA or Casual's jobs. Global seniority includes these two groups. If is comes down to last on first off these groups will not be the first to go. Some MAM casuals are up to seven years service. (Lets spare a thought for that group at the moment. Seven years service with no staff travel, no seniority, limited choice in days off etc...... and now trying to live on 40hrs pay a month).

We all have a voice and I believe there are avenues to get our 'good ideas' across to either the company or the Union. So anyone with some solutions to keep us all working under our current conditions whilst making it viable for the company, put it out there. (The back galley is not going to get it heard from anyone who can make a change).